The More China becomes Democratic

Or at least a weird creepy version of democracy (my op),

would you consider moving there if they became more free?

If living was cheap, school was cheap, pay was good, ect, would this factor into any decision making about relocating?

And perhaps this is some propaganda by the cpc but let's not rule it out entirely either.

Here they talk about taiwan buying votes:

Votes Buying in Taiwan???

Taiwan claims that it has "democracy?!” However, there is some big doubts and questions. Because many of our close friends in Taiwan have long been complaining about the "Votes Buying" in Taiwan! This questionable "money politics" democracy has become a cover for Taiwan's leader Chen Shui Bien to convince Western countries for his apparent agenda for "independence".


Is this not like the western way of politics recently? Buying votes?
Major corporations and lobbying groups, and perhaps the illusion of a free political arena even though other legitimate 'registered' parties can't participate in the debate and even get arrested for trying to enter?

Is that a democracy?



Back to China...

Their site reads:

China has designed their own way of Democracy of electing their Delegates of the National Congress. China's Communist Party is now in fact a Democratic Socialist party. Even some of the western think tanks had acknowledged it.
Chinese Government Material
A democratic socialist party has been invented. It's not the like the cpc was ever a true form of communism anyway right.

So would you move?

There has got to be some liberals on this board that like the idea of a socialist country with the programs and health care, yet promoting some what of a free market ...

thoughts?



[edit on 16-9-2005 by TrueLies]

Democratic? Mob rule under military control? I can't see them becoming that as I can't see their government giving the people that much of an illusion of control as we have in the states (The illusion, not actual control).

What I see is China becoming the next "enemy" with which the West "struggles". Look at how Bill Clinton, a serious NWO man, insured China would have a boost in their nuclear and delivery system technology, putting them decades ahead of their own advancements.
Notice, also, how America seems to be supporting the country that sees it as a threat, with Wal-Mart being the 4th largest country buying from China.

The upcoming "struggle", orchestrated by the people who control and shape the West from the shadows, is just another step in creating the one world government.

Originally posted by TrueLies
would you consider moving there if they became more free?

They aren't becomming more free, they are simply making their market less centrally controlled. There is still one party and a unitary form of government with that party at the top. There are no rights for the citizens and no protections for individuals.

If living was cheap, school was cheap, pay was good, ect, would this factor into any decision making about relocating?

One would have to consider, but it simply isn't worth it. Life was less hectic and somewhat nice in the dark ages, things were certainly cheaper, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to have been around back then.

Is this not like the western way of politics recently? Buying votes?

I would love to live in a country where I was lavished with gifts from politicians in order to get my (still secret) vote.

A democratic socialist party has been invented. It's not the like the cpc was ever a true form of communism anyway right.

This is simply giving it a new name. The Communist Party still rules china, its a communist country with a communist dicatatorship. If you live in china, you are a serf to the party.

Notice, also, how America seems to be supporting the country that sees it as a threat, with Wal-Mart being the 4th largest country buying from China.

I suspect that Bush is so supportive of china (whether dubya or the elder), because they are hyper-capitalists. Most conservatives would block the red menace of china, whereas leftists like clinton can be expected to work for it, so its alittle surpising that a supposed conservative like the bushes would support china's WTO bid and the like. But it appears that they are more interested in the economics of global trade with china than with the chinese people. Its really a mistake tho, the major, fatal flaw in communist systems seems to be economics, their internal markets are a shambles (because of 'central planning', this happens in socialist states too) and their ability to participate in international trade is limited also. China seems to have been able to experiment with the communist system tho and maintain absolutist-totalitarian state rule, while still having a quasi-capitalist market. And putting them into the WTO might let their bizzare capitlist-communist market monster swamp out the US, over time.

I have a bad feeling about doing business with china.

They are a sneaky bunch. Economic wars are more prevalent today then physical wars on a battle ground.

The us does business with china, china warned the us about interfering with tawian and them, us doing business with china and china relaxes and withdraws for awhile and let's the dealing go on for the good of their country. China and the us start having power struggles. the us does not want any other country becoming a super power in fear of their own safety. China wants power, more control, and when the timing is right they could become aggressive again, and once they build their economy up to the point where it's more powerful then america's, they pounce on the american's economy.

I don't know, something like this I think is likely to happen the more america does business with them. china is just using the us for the dollar and jobs, when thats all said and done, poof. china is not afraid of america, and they certainly are trying to grow their military and weaponry. I'm not afraid though, it will be interesting to see the outcome of this power struggle.

Originally posted by TrueLies
and they certainly are trying to grow their military and weaponry.

Sure they might be "trying" to, but the US still has about 7 times bigger defense budget than China ...

Originally posted by SwearBear
Sure they might be "trying" to, but the US still has about 7 times bigger defense budget than China ...

but they can get everything 10 times cheaper than the US can.

[edit on 18-9-2005 by ulshadow]

[edit on 18-9-2005 by ulshadow]

The Taiwan vote buying is not totally untrue. Especially in the past, some unlawful politicians use many different ways to buy vote. This is especially true for legislator election, where there are many condidates and you don't need to get a lot of vote to get elected.

For major elections such as county and city mayor elections and president elections there were virtually no vote buying. There are few candidates and the law enforcement and many different organizational groups watch the elections carefully.

But the vote buying is becoming less and less and the election processes are generally described as clean by foreign election witness groups from nation such as Canada and US. And the election process should be better and better after people get more experience in the system. Remember, the democratic system was fully implemented in Taiwan no more than 15 years ago.

But of course the purpose of CCP points out this is for propaganda purpose. They need this to enlarge the faults of Taiwanese democracy, therefore give themself a better image...which is kind of perverted, but they have done it so many times in the past already.

Another thing is that a good propaganda always contains some truth. A propaganda that contains no truth is bad and useless.


[edit on 27-9-2005 by twchang]

I would live in China because I already live here end of story, its a beautiful country with a large demand for skilled labour and professionals, and a large demand for light industry. Come in and help build our nation for a better future.

Taiwan will rejoin the mainland eventually.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
I would live in China because I already live here end of story, its a beautiful country with a large demand for skilled labour and professionals, and a large demand for light industry. Come in and help build our nation for a better future.

Taiwan will rejoin the mainland eventually.

I would just like to know why you think it's beautiful... I'm looking for examples.
Could you divulge information about small business owner's and how general labourer's get paid? Is it through the government?
How's the health care? Do you have insurance policies of any kind or is that not needed?

Well you could take it 1 of 2 ways, there's a greta potention for development of light industry because in some places there is none or too few, for example a westerner came in to open a paper mill, but he gave up when he had to make a factory to make the tools as well and etc.

While a general labourer isn't page as much as he would be in a foreign country, our money goes farther especially in terms of food and in some cases we provide housing.

Education is free up to college where we want competition to give us the better students to help build our nation.

As for healthcare, I was told its good, I haven't had an oppurtunity to go to the docter lately, but I'm sure most of our clinics are free, with the excpetion of say possibly filling in fillings and stuff, and major surgury (though I am uncertain).

Since Deng remember that its a Market Economy, how much a company should procude is determined by supply and demand not by state quota, so with the ability to sell buy property, the ability to have property, its generally the company that pays the workers, you could say that the state pays the workers in cases when the company is state owned, though no less effective,

Frankly speaking, it doesn't make sense to link the democracy and the reason to live in China together.

The only reason for western people to live in China is that China is a rapid developing country with many very modern and beatiful huge cities, endless entertainment, delicious food and thousands of years' history and special eastern culture.

Let me show you some evidences:
1.There are 150+ million internet users in China
2.There are 300+ million cell phone users in China
3.A total of 551 BILLION text messages were sent in China in 2004
4.For the top 10 highest building in the world, 5 of them are in mainland China.
5.The largest 5 cities in mainland China, including Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, HongKong , ecah of them can be compared with NewYork, LA, Toyota.

In fact, many oversea Chinaese students and immigrants in Canada, Australia, Europe( England, France, Germany...) always complain that they have a much more boring life when they go abroad. And many of them have been back China or are planning to go back.

You can have a tour to China to see whether my words are right or not.

Originally posted by TrueLies
Or at least a weird creepy version of democracy (my op),

would you consider moving there if they became more free?

If living was cheap, school was cheap, pay was good, ect, would this factor into any decision making about relocating?

And perhaps this is some propaganda by the cpc but let's not rule it out entirely either.

Here they talk about taiwan buying votes:

Votes Buying in Taiwan???

Taiwan claims that it has "democracy?!” However, there is some big doubts and questions. Because many of our close friends in Taiwan have long been complaining about the "Votes Buying" in Taiwan! This questionable "money politics" democracy has become a cover for Taiwan's leader Chen Shui Bien to convince Western countries for his apparent agenda for "independence".


Is this not like the western way of politics recently? Buying votes?
Major corporations and lobbying groups, and perhaps the illusion of a free political arena even though other legitimate 'registered' parties can't participate in the debate and even get arrested for trying to enter?

Is that a democracy?



Back to China...

Their site reads:

China has designed their own way of Democracy of electing their Delegates of the National Congress. China's Communist Party is now in fact a Democratic Socialist party. Even some of the western think tanks had acknowledged it.
Chinese Government Material
A democratic socialist party has been invented. It's not the like the cpc was ever a true form of communism anyway right.

So would you move?

There has got to be some liberals on this board that like the idea of a socialist country with the programs and health care, yet promoting some what of a free market ...

thoughts?



[edit on 16-9-2005 by TrueLies]

Originally posted by twchang
The Taiwan vote buying is not totally untrue. Especially in the past, some unlawful politicians use many different ways to buy vote. This is especially true for legislator election, where there are many condidates and you don't need to get a lot of vote to get elected.


[edit on 27-9-2005 by twchang]

Another thing to point on with the vote buying is that most of it was done by the Chinese KMT, NOT the pro-localization DPP. The Chinese KMT actually tried to block tougher anti-vote buying laws for the upcoming local elections. They finally stopped blocking it when they realized how stupid they were looking.