NEWS: Chinese Beauty Products Made From the Skins of Chinese Executed Prisoners

Originally posted by chinawhite

And you dont have a problem quoting the same infomation from different sites?

.....I gave evidence from several sites...I gave evidence from several sources, yet you keep claiming the CCP is "innocent" and they are not doing this.......

Originally posted by chinawhite

You were saying?

It is a claim the CCP is making....from claim to practice there are two different worlds appart when it concenrs to China's policies......

Originally posted by chinawhite
You can recieve organs and give them up but you cant sell them or buy them

Only you and the CCP claim that, the evidence from everybody else in the world shows otherwise.....even from dissident Chinese who left your beloved CCP for the better, and even Chinese-Americans who come to the US to recive medical treatment because of complications from the organ transplant from executed prisoners.....

Originally posted by chinawhite
You idoit..........

Is that how the CCP teaches you how to respond and try to refute evidence against them?.....

Originally posted by chinawhite
That is the number of organ transplants in china

Where do those organs come from?.......


[edit on 19-9-2005 by Muaddib]

OK, let's chill this thread a bit.

Actually my above source claimed that the American Hospitals know that the organs they fly in from South America, etc and that they can be bought.

I seriously doubt people give up their heart for money so they must come about some way...

The New England Journal of Medicine is a slightly better source than CNN. In fact the guy who wrote the report pointed out he operated on people who had paid $1,000 for a kidney from asia.

Originally posted by Muaddib
.....I gave evidence from several sites...I gave evidence from several sources, yet you keep claiming the CCP is "innocent" and they are not doing this.......

You say CCP. does everyone get the money for this does everyone know this is happeneing?

CCP is the whole communist party be more speific.

This is happening i agree but the CCP is not involed only some members

there are 63million CCP members

Only you and the CCP claim that, the evidence from everybody else in the world shows otherwise.....even from dissident Chinese who left your beloved CCP for the better, and even Chinese-Americans who come to the US to recive medical treatment because of complications from the organ transplant from executed prisoners.....

I gave you several links claiming that the CCP has a law againest selling and buying organs.

While none of your articles claims there is no law againest selling organs

Is that how the CCP teaches you how to respond and try to refute evidence against them?.....

No. thats how a average person dealing with a idiot disputes "edvidence"

Where do those organs come from?.......

From donors

there is 1,300,000,000 chinese. america citizens give up 3,000-4,000 with a population of 300million.

It does make sense if you think about it

Originally posted by chinawhite
You say CCP. does everyone get the money for this does everyone know this is happeneing?

CCP is the whole communist party be more speific.

This is happening i agree but the CCP is not involed only some members

there are 63million CCP members

How in the world do you know for sure "is only some members"?....

Originally posted by chinawhite
I gave you several links claiming that the CCP has a law againest selling and buying organs.

While none of your articles claims there is no law againest selling organs

You gave a couple, not several, links about the CCP claiming the above, yet the evidence from several sources prove otherwise. You don't want to accept it?.... that's fine....

Originally posted by chinawhite

No. thats how a average person dealing with a idiot disputes "edvidence"

If you can't stop the insults, then don't respond to the topic at all. I am not going to waste my time with someone that obviously has the grammar and understanding of a 2 year old child, or one that has been brainwashed by the CCP so much that he acts like a 2 year old child.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but I don't believe pretty much anything the CCP says, or you, when the rest of the world has evidence that proves otherwise.

Originally posted by chinawhite
From donors

there is 1,300,000,000 chinese. america citizens give up 3,000-4,000 with a population of 300million.

It does make sense if you think about it

Anyways, for anyone else who is interested in the truth and not what the CCP claims, here is some more information.

It has been known for some time that organs taken from executed prisoners are used for transplants in China. Amnesty International reported this practice in 1993 and called at that time for the Chinese
government to ban the use of organs from executed prisoners without their free and informed consent. However, the use of organs from this source continues in China, reportedly on a widespread scale. In the absence of a system of voluntary death-related organ donation, the main
source of organs in China is reported to be executed prisoners. The percentage of transplant kidneys estimated to be derived from executed prisoners has been put as high as 90%. Organs reported to be harvested from this source include corneas, kidneys and hearts. A number of reports
indicate that it is also possible for foreigners to travel to China and buy transplants using organs of executed prisoners.

Excerpted from.
www.globalsecurity.org...

Officials confirmed that executed prisoners were among the sources of organs for transplant but maintained that consent was required from prisoners or their relatives in advance of the procedure. There was no national law governing organ donations, but a Ministry of Health directive explicitly states that buying and selling human organs and tissues is not allowed. There were no reliable statistics on how many organ transplants occurred each year using organs from executed prisoners, but according to press reports, hundreds of persons from other countries who were unable to obtain transplants at home travel to the country each year for organ transplants. Recipients reported paying for the transplants, and some reported that treatment could be terminated or delayed for a lack of funds or a delay in payment.

Excerpted from.
www.state.gov...

In recent years, it has become increasingly evident that executed prisoners are the principal source of supply of body organs for medical transplantation purposes in China. While most observers would acknowledge the moral dilemmas implicit in this situation, the chronic shortage of voluntary organ donors around the world has led some to believe that such practices may still be justified: through their deaths, after all, condemned criminals can contribute to saving the lives of innocent victims of disease. Recent research by Human Rights Watch/Asia has uncovered, however, important new documentary and other evidence demonstrating that China's heavy reliance on executed prisoners as a source of transplant organs entails a wide range of unacceptable human rights and medical ethics violations.(1)

The obvious linkage between China's extensive use of the death penalty and the country's burgeoning organ trade and transplant program has attracted mounting international attention and alarm. In 1993, the U.N. Committee Against Torture formally asked the Chinese government "whether the death sentence might not constitute a form of cruel and unusual punishment...[and] whether the bodies of persons executed could be used for the purpose of organ transplants."(2) Later the same year, a report on the British government's first human rights delegation to China officially called upon the Chinese government to produce "a code of conduct for executions which prohibits...the use of organs from executed prisoners for spare part surgery."(3) An estimated 2,000 to 3,000 organs (mainly kidneys and corneas) from prisoners each year are used in this manner, with government officials reportedly receiving priority in their allocation.

..................................

The consent of prisoners to use their organs after death, although required by law, appears rarely to be sought. In some cases, prisoners and their families are not even informed that the organs will be removed, although in others, the families are given cash payments. Since the prisoner's body is cremated immediately after execution and any

last written will or statement can be censored by the authorities, moreover, family members have no way of ascertaining whether or not organs have been removed.
.........................
The execution procedure prescribed by Chinese law (shooting in the back of the head), is sometimes violated in order to expedite harvesting of prisoners' organs. According to Chinese legal authorities, some executions are even deliberately mishandled to ensure that the prisoners are not yet dead when their organs are removed.

Far from reflecting any abundance of organ donors in China, where demand still far exceeds supply, the lack of open medical discussion instead suggests clearly the existence of some officially imposed prohibition or taboo on the topic. Above all, in virtually none of the actual case studies discussed in the journal are the identities of the organ donors disclosed. The revealing exception to this rule is considered below.

Until recently, the Chinese government consistently denied that executed prisoners were used as a source of organs for transplant in China. The Ministry of Health, for example, made repeated statements denying all knowledge of the practice until 1991.(13) However, mounting evidence has since forced grudging admissions from Chinese government representatives that executed prisoners' organs are in fact used, although this is said to occur "only in rare instances" and "with the consent of the person" due to be executed.
.......................
Clear evidence exists, however, to show that the bodies of executed prisoners are the source for many, in fact most of the organ transplant operations performed in China. The first such item is a set of Chinese government "internal circulation only" (neibu) regulations, recently uncovered by Human Rights Watch/Asia, which set forth explicit guidelines on how the practice is to be administered. One document, published by the Ministry of Justice in June 1981 and titled "Reply Concerning the Question of the Utilization of the Corpses of Criminals Sentenced to Death," characterizes the utilization of the corpses of criminals sentenced to death as being "very necessary from the standpoint of medical treatment and scientific research."(15) A second and more detailed document, issued jointly in October 1984 by several central-level law enforcement agencies and titled "Temporary Rules Concerning the Utilization of Corpses or Organs from the Corpses of Executed Criminals," reveals by its very title that the practice has long been a standard one in China.

Excerpted from.
hrw.org...

Let's read some more.

A former People's Republic of China (PRC) surgeon, who for reasons of personal safety cannot be identified, in August 1994 recounted to a Western television journalist how he had removed, for transplant purposes, the kidneys of several condemned prisoners in a major Chinese city in 1988 on the evening prior to their execution.(17)

In early 1990, a leading surgeon at the Beijing Friendship Hospital informed a former PRC judge that all of the kidneys used by that hospital for transplant came from executed prisoners. Some months later, the same legal official was told by a doctor at the Shenzhen People's Armed Police Hospital that most of their transplanted organs were obtained from prisoners executed in Sichuan Province.(18)

A source at the First Affiliated Hospital of the Sun Yat-sen University of Medical Sciences, Guangzhou, reported in 1991 to a Hong Kong newspaper that Deacon Chiu, a millionaire and prominent Hong Kong resident, had received a kidney from an executed prisoner when he underwent a transplant operation at the hospital earlier that year.(19)

In August 1992, a recently-released Chinese prisoner informed another Hong Kong newspaper that, "A team of doctors was always on hand at execution grounds in major cities such as Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou, and, once the prisoners had been shot, the doctors immediately dissected the bodies and removed the organs required."(20)

According to a BBC television documentary program screened in late 1992, a Hong Kong physician, Dr. Man Kam Chan, had "referred more than a hundred patients to China for kidney transplants and he knows where the corpses are coming from." According to Dr. Kam, "As far as I know these kidneys are all...from executed prisoners. The reason why there are so many kidneys nowadays available for organ transplantation...is because of the worsening law and order situation in China." The same BBC film crew later visited the Nanfang Hospital in Guangzhou, southern China, and interviewed medical staff there: "On the day we visited no operations were being carried out. We were told that since the Chinese New Year there had been a temporary halt to executions, but the transplants would be resumed soon."(21)

A former inmate of a jail in north-central China described to an Asian diplomat in April 1994 how he had seen, during a recent several-year period of incarceration, dozens of condemned prisoners being medically prepared for organ procurement. On the night before their executions, medical staff would enter the jail and take blood samples from the condemned prisoners. Early the next morning, the men would be taken away and injected (according to prison guards) with a drug that prepared them for organ removal.(22)

Additional evidence can be found in the pages of the Journal of Chinese Organ Transplantation, where a number of case studies on transplant operations published over the past ten years identified all of the donor subjects in question as having died from "extensive open cranial wounds" or even "massive, open-style cranial injury."(23) This clearly suggests that the donors in question were executed by shooting in the head and that the organs may have been removed on-site. (To be usable, vital organs such as livers and kidneys must be removed and properly stored within minutes after death;(24) "dead on arrival" hospital cases such as victims of vehicular or other accidents are reportedly unusable for most procurement purposes, and China's non-recognition of the "brain death" standard legally disqualifies most such donors that could be viable.) More generally, numerous other articles from the same journal reveal, in broad statistical terms, that China's typical organ-donor subjects are, prior to death, overwhelmingly young, male, and in good health -- an accurate profile of the majority of inmates of Chinese jails in the 1980s and 1990s.(25)

Expert estimates of the percentage of organs used in transplant operations that are obtained from executed criminals are consistently high. One Western transplantation surgeon who left China in the early 1990s reported that over 90 percent of all transplanted kidneys, which constitute the great majority of organs for transplant, came from executed prisoners.(26) And a study conducted by a surgeon at the Prince of Wales Hospital in Hong Kong found that 75 percent of kidney transplant patients from Hong Kong who underwent operations in China had received their new organs from executed prisoners.

Excerpted from above link.

Now it seems that this practice by the CCP has increased to use the skin harvested from executed prisoners for beauty products that Chinese companies have been exporting, and plan to keep exporting to the west, of course for profit.


[edit on 20-9-2005 by Muaddib]

None of that is proof, sorry to inform you of that in fact I doubt this court case will ever go against the CCP in the United Kingdom.

Originally posted by Muaddib
How in the world do you know for sure "is only some members"?....

Because 10,000 US dollrs wouldn't be shared between 63million members.

If others knew about this easy money where are the profits?

You gave a couple, not several, links about the CCP claiming the above, yet the evidence from several sources prove otherwise. You don't want to accept it?.... that's fine....

They didn't phase the sentence right. Or you mis-understood what they wrote

If you can't stop the insults, then don't respond to the topic at all. I am not going to waste my time with someone that obviously has the grammar and understanding of a 2 year old child, or one that has been brainwashed by the CCP so much that he acts like a 2 year old child.

Well this two year old understands english than you

Sorry to bust your bubble, but I don't believe pretty much anything the CCP says, or you, when the rest of the world has evidence that proves otherwise.

Rest of the world?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Muaddib arent you tried of using recylced "Facts"


You are right. i dont want to waste my time with you. add me to your ignore list if you want, i do not wish to argue with you.

Originally posted by intrepid
OK, let's chill this thread a bit.

Is there some arcane aspect of intrepid's above request that is beyond this thread's participants ken?

Then let civil, on topic discussion prevail.

Originally posted by Odium
None of that is proof, sorry to inform you of that in fact I doubt this court case will ever go against the CCP in the United Kingdom.

Oh... I see.. so witnesses reports, reports from doctors who saw or even had to participate in the practice, reports from Chinese-Americans and other patients who stated their organs came from executed prisoners, reports from the families of some executed prisoners who sued because organs were being harvested from their executed relatives without anyone giving consent to do so, plus the admission by the CCP they were doing this, harvesting organs and skin, is no proof?....

You call yourself a lawyer?.....

[edit on 20-9-2005 by Muaddib]

So, Muaddib, you accept the same about America then when Amnesty has made reports or is it only in the case of China?

And the British Government call me a barrister, not a lawyer. I am the one that earns a lot more and knows what proof is.

Over here, person who gets asylum for saying something about another Nation would be laughed out of the House of [Law] Lords.

Originally posted by Odium
So, Muaddib, you accept the same about America then when Amnesty has made reports or is it only in the case of China?

And the British Government call me a barrister, not a lawyer. I am the one that earns a lot more and knows what proof is.

Over here, person who gets asylum for saying something about another Nation would be laughed out of the House of [Law] Lords.

This is not about America Odium....

Ironic that someone who claims to be a barrister and knows what proof is, instead of presenting evidence against the topic, is trying to get the topic off tangent....




[edit on 21-9-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
trying to get the topic off tangent....

We know you mean off at or on a tangent.

The concept presented is, at its worst, a major violation of human rights, as is the termination of life of babies of a non-preferred gender, a phenomenon of unknown proportions.

But no country's human rights record is beyond scrutiny.

Will you accept the Amnesty reports about America, yes or no?

Once I get an answer, I will then put my evidence forward. [Oh except, I already have by the journal names above.]

Originally posted by Odium
Will you accept the Amnesty reports about America, yes or no?

Once I get an answer, I will then put my evidence forward. [Oh except, I already have by the journal names above.]

You seem to have the same problem that chinawhite and a few others have....

This is not about me....and this is not about the US....

Get it in your head.... this is about China harvesting organs and skin from executed prisoners.......and you have not given us anything to refute any of the evidence presented....


[edit on 21-9-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
You seem to have the same problem that chinawhite and a few others have....

Have you noticed that others do not believe the "edvidence" you give. Does it make you wonder who is the one in denial?

Get it in your head.... this is about China harvesting organs and skin from executed prisoners.......and you have not given us anything to refute any of the evidence presented....

Your "several" sources do not give any concrete edvidence about organ haversting.

Remeber what you are claiming. You claim that the prisoners/families do not consent to giving up their organs.

*The law in china states that if ones family doesn't pick up their family members body it then belongs to the state.

You gave one article saying that a family didn't consent to giving up their family members organ but why didn't they go pick it up?

Well actually, my article does.

You also do not include any data or reports from the Modern PRC leadership, but from the leadership of the Mid-1990's.

Also your own sources say such things as:
"Officials confirmed that executed prisoners were among the sources of organs for transplant but maintained that consent was required from prisoners or their relatives in advance of the procedure. There was no national law governing organ donations, but a Ministry of Health directive explicitly states that buying and selling human organs and tissues is not allowed." but as normal you only highlight what is important to make your point and do not include all of the information.

Your own sources also make it out as the way in which they remove the organs, not the fact they are doing it...but then again if you highlight the right parts nobody will read the rest.

Originally posted by Odium
Well actually, my article does.

What article?.... You have not shown anything at all in this thread....

Originally posted by Odium
You also do not include any data or reports from the Modern PRC leadership, but from the leadership of the Mid-1990's.

I have shown data from 2005 from Amnesty International showing what the CCP is still doing to keep their harvest of human organs

Originally posted by Odium
Also your own sources say such things as:
"Officials confirmed that executed prisoners were among the sources of organs for transplant but maintained that consent was required from prisoners or their relatives in advance of the procedure.
..............

And I showed that there have been elatives of those who have been executed who have sued the government because organs were harvested from their relatives without any consent being given.

Originally posted by Odium
Your own sources also make it out as the way in which they remove the organs, not the fact they are doing it...but then again if you highlight the right parts nobody will read the rest.

I posted whole parts of that evidence...would I put in bold the most interesting parts? of course, that's one of the features we have, but how in the world was I hiding anything when I posted it....even the parts where the CCP claims they are innocent.

Again, you are trying to get the topic off on a tangent instead of presenting proof to dispute the facts.

This is really stupid, unless you have proof don't waste our time with your games please....

[edit on 22-9-2005 by Muaddib]

Actually, I did.

It is called a "Medical Journal" and I have named it twice already, however you seem to deny it ever being there. However, I am sure people will be able to see that I have done that. I just guess the text doesn't show up for you?

Also the source you used, is on events happening prior to Hu Jintao's leadership and you are trying to push it as happening right now. When clearly it gives dates such as '1994' and '1998'.

Edit:

In fact, much of the evidence used came out because of Hu Jintao and his policy of trying to make the leadership more open...but of course, we refuse to acknowledge the administration documents coming out...

[edit on 22/9/2005 by Odium]

Originally posted by Muaddib
This is not about me....and this is not about the US....

Get it in your head.... this is about China harvesting organs and skin from executed prisoners.......and you have not given us anything to refute any of the evidence presented....

Another quote I'll remember whilst reading your Iraq/Afghanistan/China diversions in ANY thread pertaining to the United States

Originally posted by Odium
Actually, I did.

It is called a "Medical Journal" and I have named it twice already, however you seem to deny it ever being there. However, I am sure people will be able to see that I have done that. I just guess the text doesn't show up for you?

You made a statement, which noone of us can corroborate unless we have that journal.... about one man claiming that it is very easy to do this and that they have been doing something similar in South America. Then you jump in and claim it happens in the US too, don't know how you jumped from this man saying something similar happens in South America to this happening in the US..... and then you seem to imply that we should absolve China for executing people just so they can get their organs and skin?.....

Originally posted by Odium
Also the source you used, is on events happening prior to Hu Jintao's leadership and you are trying to push it as happening right now. When clearly it gives dates such as '1994' and '1998'.

I gave links with excerpts even from 2005 presenting evidence that China is still doing this, despite their claims that it does not happen with their consent, yet we know that innocent people are being executed just because the CCP "wanted a happy new year" so they decided to execute more people to keep everyone happy....

I wonder what kind of people would be happy that religious people, or pro-democratic people are being executed. I kind of doubt that, unless they belong to the CCP....



[edit on 26-9-2005 by Muaddib]