Communism is not true communism

Have you noticed, the so called "communist" states really aren't that. China, North Korea, Cuba. They all claim to be communist, but it seems to me that they are all ruled by one dictator. Any comments? Or am I way off base.

BTW - Communism in any form SUCKS

Capitalism is the exploitation of "man by man", communism is the other way around, LOL

But, more seriously, if you have the power to re-define the world starting with a clean sheet of paper, I'm not all that sure that you will invent capitalism (without safety guards), which can only lead in the long run to complete planet destruction of resources (and I agree that the communist were worst in that regards, because it was not real communism).

So you will probably comes up with some sort of sustainable growth economy (which we are slowly leading to), so not harsh capitalism, not communism either, but probably closer to socialism than capitalism as we were used to.

If you have a chance to watch the documentary "The Corporation - 2004", although very "lefty", you will heard stuff from big CEO that you don't usually heard in normal media. If after that, you think that pure capitalism is the way to go, then...

Thanks for the input.

I was just wondering if others thought about it the way I have.

If Communism/Socialism actually lived the phrase "From Each According To His Abilities, To Each According To His Needs", then I would be all for it. Unfortunately, human nature doesn't seem to allow it. There is always a class that rides in limousines and lives in huge houses while the underclass toils in poverty.

My favorite saying is "Peace, bread, land" from the original Bolshevik Revolution. The Russian people got "Afghanistan, food lines, collective farms" instead.

Until Mankind's nature undergoes a transformation true Socialism is doomed.

Communism is not true communism
The assumption is correct, if in relation to what Friedrich Engels and Karl Marx meant by "Communism."

The Communism practiced by the Soviet Union and eastern block nations differed from what Engels and Marx had envisioned communism being.
Those practiced today by North Korea, Cuba, etc. are also different from that suggested and meant by Engels and Marx. Interestingly, China, who embraces communism, also has embraced capitalism.

The version of communism envisioned by Marx and Engels was a utopian type scientific socialism ending in the synthesis process with true communism (which would have had democratic properties.)

In understanding Engels and Marx reference to communism, one must be familiar with the Hegelian dialectic process, with which, Marx built his economic and political interpretation of history or dialectical materialism from.
This was:
Thesis-FEUDALISM>Antithesis-BOURGEOISIE>Synthesis-CAPITALISM>New Thesis-CAPITALISM>Antithesis-PROLETARIAT>Synthesis-SOCIALISM>which would ultimately lead to COMMUNISM (ie: the process to such is undetermined by Marx).

To Engel and Marx, communism would be a social system in which every individual would have his/her needs met and would be able to contribute to society as best he/she could, with NO need for state intervention, providing, allocation, or distribution or even the need for a state of ANY kind at all, hence democracy of communism would be achieved. Communism envisioned by Engels and Marx was a society in which each person contributes according to their ability and receive according to their needs, where the working class would be the sole beneficiary of the their labour.

One must also understand that Engel and Marx never once concludes that capitalism is unjust. In Capital, Marx goes as far as to say that such is by "no means an injustice" (ie: profit derived from the exploitation of the worker, for even in true communism, those placed in leadership roles would symbolically and literally still be gaining from the exploitation of the worker).






seekerof

[edit on 11-9-2005 by Seekerof]

Communism is one of those things that looks great on paper, but is hard thing to realize in the real world. Due to the cold war, communism and socialism in the west is seen as something evil, when really it is not. It's an ideology, like capitalism, with different ideas, some of which are better in my opinion.

I'm curious Simtek 22, why do think communism sucks?

Well Ponderosa, I look at all the communist soceities in the world today and ask myself if I would be happy there. Probably not, I couldn't post my rants and raves on-line and make observations about my government without getting tossed into jail or shot. I enjoy living under a governmental system that allows me to be me, say what I want when I want, and tell everyone to kiss off if they don't like it. I guess that's about it.

I hope my response didn't come across as to snotty, that wasn't my intent.

[edit on 11-9-2005 by simtek 22]

Originally posted by simtek 22
Well Ponderosa, I look at all the communist soceities in the world today and ask myself if I would be happy there. Probably not, I couldn't post my rants and raves on-line and make observations about my government without getting tossed into jail or shot. I enjoy living under a governmental system that allows me to be me, say what I want when I want, and tell everyone to kiss off if they don't like it. I guess that's about it.

I hope my response didn't come across as to snotty, that wasn't my intent.

[edit on 11-9-2005 by simtek 22]

Well, well, well

After reading this, I had these few verses in mind, from a John Lennon song, "Working Class Hero":

Keep you doped with religion, sex and TV
And you think you're so clever, classless and free
But you're still (insert colorful reproduction action verb) peasants as far as I can see
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be

There's room at the top they are telling you still
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be
If you want to be a hero well just follow me
If you want to be a hero well just follow me

Mod Edit: Nothing personal against John Lennon or you, just making the lyrics a bit more imaginative I suppose you could say...

[edit on 9/11/2005 by EnronOutrunHomerun]

Originally posted by simtek 22
Well Ponderosa, I look at all the communist soceities in the world today and ask myself if I would be happy there. Probably not, I couldn't post my rants and raves on-line and make observations about my government without getting tossed into jail or shot. I enjoy living under a governmental system that allows me to be me, say what I want when I want, and tell everyone to kiss off if they don't like it. I guess that's about it.

I hope my response didn't come across as to snotty, that wasn't my intent.

[edit on 11-9-2005 by simtek 22]

Which communist socieities are you refering to? Because most today are simply dictatorships.

Communism/Socialism really was given a bad name by the cold-war, and only because it poses (or posed) a threat to capitalism.

I don't see why we couldn't have a socialist system, or even a communist one that (a) isn't a dictatorship or a one-party system (b) allows freedom of speech and all of that (c) allows each person absolute say in government and the ability to hold government people responsible for their actions, answer to them and lasltly; (d) have a free-media cause no democracy will work without one of those..

Sadly in those communist countries communism is simply a mask used to disguise dictatorship. Juz ask Mr Kim and Mr Castrol. Communism in its purest form juz dun work. Captalism+Democracy is still the best combination right now.

*Hey mr mod pls dun ban me over this* :

Well Ponderosa, I look at all the communist soceities in the world today and ask myself if I would be happy there. Probably not, I couldn't post my rants and raves on-line and make observations about my government without getting tossed into jail or shot. I enjoy living under a governmental system that allows me to be me, say what I want when I want, and tell everyone to kiss off if they don't like it. I guess that's about it.

As you said this is not Communism, this is just a dictatorship in disguise. There are things like Democratic Socialism which has the best of both worlds i guess.

But that's the big problem with both Socialism and Communism. People's first reaction is to think of an example in the world, although there aren't any really. But countries get labeled as communist because that's what they resemble to some extent, so people see them as the face of communism when really they shouldn't be.

>BTW - Communism in any form SUCKS

I don't know about that. Seems to work quite well in the household. The traditional American famliy unit is a communist organization. The man works, the woman cooks and clean, the children go to school and the baby does absolutely nothing. But, everyone is fed and clothed.


[edit on 12-9-2005 by LordBucket]

Which is what I believe that most if not all so-called "communist" countries practice nowadays.

Seekerof's description of Marx's vision of Communism is bang on, couldn't have do better myself. That type of communism is only possible on an individual community basis. Once it gets beyond a certain population then it becomes something else.

I've been thinking allot lately on how different political systems become viable once the necessary technologies becomes available and I can definately see a Neo-Socialist gov't in the future based off of Protean Replication (manufactured meat) and Molecular Assembly. In such a world Trades, Service and Construction industries would be obsolete so there will be a huge push for this by allot of people I would think.

[edit on 12-9-2005 by sardion2000]

Democracy is not real democracy.

Originally posted by LordBucket
I don't know about that. Seems to work quite well in the household. The traditional American famliy unit is a communist organization. The man works, the woman cooks and clean, the children go to school and the baby does absolutely nothing. But, everyone is fed and clothed.
[edit on 12-9-2005 by LordBucket]

You know, that was probably true pre 1960, now, I think there are a lot more women working outside the home. Hope the wommen libbers/NOW group don't get wind of your comment.

I tend to agree that the communist countries of today are just dictatorships with a communist label slapped on them. I guess calling themselves communist makes them feel like they are one of the common folks.

Popeye - Look at the words to John Lennon's song "Imagine". With the words like that, you could tell he was communist to the core. The interesting thing about people like him is that he would preach about communism, but I doubt that he'd actually have liked living in a communist society. That goes for the rest of the Jane Fonda crowd. I didn't see her rushing to stay in Vietnam or move to Russia or China when she thought that they had such perfect soceities. Something kept bringing her back, the smell of $$$.

I would call what Cuba has, (my homeland) is Bistro Communisim.

Sort of the P.F. Chang of Communism

>You know, that was probably true pre 1960, now

Well, I did specify *traditional* family unit.

Point being, there's absolutely nothing wrong with communism. It's good, and proper, and healthy...for certain circumstances of organization. Communism works best in, well...communes. Small groups where everyone knows one another personally. Maybe it's not well suited for countries spanning millions of square miles with hundreds of millions of people of varying cultures speaking several different languages...but so what?

You wouldn't want to try to run a military as a Democracy, would you?

Fascism, Nazism, Communism, Capitalism all those systems are made in a way that supports a creation of the ruling elites. The difference is in what way they can deceive and manipulate the masses. Democracy is no exception.

Demos - Greek word for Mob.

Kratos - Greek word for Rule.

Ergo - Democracy - Rule of the Mob. When you sugarcote it a little you get Rule of the People, because no one wants to be designated as a member of the Mob.

And we all know what nice things you can do with the mob, aren't we.

PS. Communism was a social experiment of the West (Bankers situated in New York) to see if they can impose this type of belifs to ordinary man and of course if there can be a ruling elite within communism itself. A model for NWO. And Marx and Engels (Lenin too) were heavily sponsored from them. Marx and Engels were considered second grade philisophers of that time. Cheap propagandist and PR service for those realy powerfull people (IMO).

[edit on 15-9-2005 by yanchek]

[edit on 15-9-2005 by yanchek]

Originally posted by Ponderosa

I'm curious Simtek 22, why do think communism sucks?

Ill-informed societal indoctrination, I suppose.

Originally posted by simtek 22
Look at the words to John Lennon's song "Imagine". With the words like that, you could tell he was communist to the core.

Why do people always assume because someone is anti-war they are communists?

Is that the only political system you have heard of other than capitalism?

John Lennon was not a communist. In fact he was as against communism as he was war. John Lennon was just aware of the injustice of money, privilege and war. Even though he was wealthy himself it made him very guilty, that's what drove him to speak out, to appease his own guilt.
Communist He lived in mansions.

I am myself against war, the state, coercive government blah blah blah, but I'm NOT a communist.

Think outside the box.

"Left wing, right wing, you can stuff the lot" Jeremy Ratter

"People, not power"

And no, Russia was not communist, it was a socialist republic.
The West labeled these countries communist as an easy way to create an enemy. The state needs enemies to justify its existence.
And from your post it seems the conditioning is still working.

Aint it funny how government conditioning takes on a life of its own?

AP&F...The only true way.