Patriots against the Patriot Act

I never will understand the scare of the guillotine...
Why do you fear it?
It hurts a hellova lot less than having AP bullets from and M4 tear straight through you.(not like I would know)

anyways, even some of the Republicans I know oppose the Patriot Act!!*more shock and awe*
It's not just a Rep vs. Dem thing, it's escalating into what couldpossibly be the greatest riot/rebellion/revolution(if we're lucky) since American Independence...
- Tassadar

He's running out of space to type,
It's supposed to be funny
- Tassadar

Tassadar

You are right. I din't see it.

It's just like the administration responsible for the Patriot Act, and what's going down in Iraq.

They didn't

PLAN AHEA
D

While I am in full agreement that the Patriot product-line of legislation must go, or better yet, never come�.I am encouraged by a recent article in a law review journal (the link currently is currently misplaced�come back later) that members of the Bush administration may be punishable under RICO laws governing racketeering. Not only an enticing alternative to impeachment, but also gives rise to another possibility under the Patriot product-line. Couldn�t this type of legislation be used to prosecute the crimes of the Bush Cartel? An eager Attorney General in a left-leaning state, running large deficits and experiencing high unemployment could file such a complaint...but highly unlikely. Food for thought.

[Edited on 6-9-2003 by kukla]

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
It's just like the administration responsible for the Patriot Act, and what's going down in Iraq.

They didn't

PLAN AHEA
D

LOL,
good one

Kukla

Quite so.

But you're lucky our old friend FreeMason isn't here. He would launch into many aspects of Constitutional law that point to the impunity of the incumbent administration and its leader. His arguments were always interesting, but fell short of actually examining the specific grounds for the charges being brought - that is, exactly what behavior the Bush administration has engaged in.

It also warms my heart to see the more likely outcomes for the criminal gang, than re-election 14 months from now.

dragonrider, on the other hand, argues that this is why there needs to be another orchestrated attack - to invoke the provisions of FEMA and martial law, and circumvent the electoral process.

Meanwhile as time marches on, I believe you will see more and more use of the Patriot Act to quell dissidence (nothing whatsoever to do with anti-terrorism).

and while I do turn to you for knowledge MA,
dr is a great source of guidance and his theories seem highly plausible...

The Patriot Acts are just the beginning, I can't wait 'till we get past the ned for those.
- Tassadar

Of course the incumbent advantage is what makes this so highly unlikely...historically.
If FreeMason was truly a Constitutional scholar, the he would have to admit that Federal tensions (states rights) are at an all time high. A local example is the near-riotous conditions of the Kalamath Valley since learning King Rove has been pulling the strings in the water rights struggle. These types of conflicts are ripe and rampant fueling any possibility of a Federal showdown of epic proportions.

Let us hope that all this heart warming amounts to an agreeable outcome.

I think DR is a very wise fellow and I share his speculation. I fear there won�t be any elections to rig.

Another terror attack might seal our fate.

Revolt. Thats the only option. Something that wont happen unless there is huge catastrophic economic failure and collapse.

Which can be good. If the economy collapses, worse than it dod in 1929......it could actually be a blessing in disguise. The sudden removal of the lazy boy from the ass of America would cause chaos. Chaos breeds the birth of the new. Revolution? power struggle?

One thing for sure, Bush would never survive a total economic unpheaval. hell, i dont think any of the current leaders would.......

Maybe an OPEC vote for Euro Currency would be a good thing.........

Changing to th Euro wouldn't be big enough,
we need one of our leaders to confess, get shot, and be a martyr...
(that was not a threat in anyway)
It would make everything much simpler...
- Tassadar

[Edited on 6-9-2003 by Tassadar]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Another terror attack might seal our fate.

Revolt. Thats the only option. Something that wont happen unless there is huge catastrophic economic failure and collapse.

Which can be good. If the economy collapses, worse than it dod in 1929......it could actually be a blessing in disguise. The sudden removal of the lazy boy from the ass of America would cause chaos. Chaos breeds the birth of the new. Revolution? power struggle?

One thing for sure, Bush would never survive a total economic unpheaval. hell, i dont think any of the current leaders would.......

Maybe an OPEC vote for Euro Currency would be a good thing.........

An OPEC vote would certainly have DEVESTATING impacts on our economy. But even without a currency switch, I think the likelihood that mortgage rates could double or triple in the next fiver years is VERY HIGH. The Fed doesn't have much wiggle room left. So all those people that just refinanced their homes with variable rates could be in for a shock when the rate goes variable. There will be a dramatic rise in foreclosures, damaging credit ratings, which is now considered a prime criteraia/prequisite for certain activites/performances/possible behavior that have no relevance to financial stability. Therein lies the danger for the law-biding citizens. So if they don�t hook you on a Patriot indictment, you will be forever banished to poverty.

It's kind of like jumping...
You may not be high up enough to kill yourself when yu hit the ground. (that would suck)
if your gonna go,
go big,
or go home.
- Tassadar

Originally posted by Creepy

rest of story here---
www.mapinc.org...

heres another article about the same thing---

www.talkleft.com...



[Edited on 6-9-2003 by Creepy]

i'm willing to bet the authorities won't be shutting down industrial building spewing tonnes of waste a day into the air tho, that might hurt the US economy

banjochef

A good observation, also made by Creepy on his later post, and oddly deleted!

Kukla:First off I want to point out that I HATE the Patriot act and all it steals form us...

You state...

Originally posted by kukla
But even without a currency switch, I think the likelihood that mortgage rates could double or triple in the next fiver years is VERY HIGH. The Fed doesn't have much wiggle room left. So all those people that just refinanced their homes with variable rates could be in for a shock when the rate goes variable. There will be a dramatic rise in foreclosures, damaging credit ratings, which is now considered a prime criteraia/prequisite for certain activites/performances/possible behavior that have no relevance to financial stability. Therein lies the danger for the law-biding citizens. So if they don�t hook you on a Patriot indictment, you will be forever banished to poverty.

THis is my area of expertise and while you theory is sound the facts don't bear it out.

What MOST Americans have done in the past 2 years is go FROM an ARM (Adjustable Rate Mortgage) to a FIXED Rate mortgage due to the historically low rates offered by guys like me.

Actually the Fed has LOTS of "wiggle room" left that's the insidious part to this whole mess. Not only does Uncle Alan have a full point in the Overnight rate, he can actually start printing money (with a phone call) and begin a buying benge on long term treasuries.

I assure you THIS will expose rates LOWER than those we saw back in May. Actually that's EXACTLY what caused the low rates in May... Bond speculators bought like mad (which lowers the yeild on the bonds and thus lowers the interest rates attached to securities like MBS's) because of Greenspan's comments of potential deflation which would intiate "unusual practices" by the Fed to thwart same.

Today we had a rally in the bond market because of a REALITY CHECK on the economy, 94,000 jobs LOST in August instead of the 12,000 estimated to be GAINED.

THe yeild on the 10 year treasury dropped below 4.5% and thus sent mortgage rates to their lowest level since the bond market blood letting began.

I have been saying for about two months now that this whole spectre of a rapidly improving economy is a load of horse hockey... Our econmy is fueled by the consumer. A consumer who has no job doesn't consume much for very long.

How has the consumer consumed what he has all year you may ask? By refinancing his home and either taking the equity out and blowing that OR switching to a lower fixed rate (giving him a sense of security that his house payment will not go up) and blowing the $100.00 - $500.00 a month he saved himself.

If the employment picture doesn't swing REAL SOON we stand at the brink of the Japanese malais here in the U.S.

Just yesterday (Thursday) one of the FED presidents, and a VOTING member of the F.O.M.C. stated publically that the FED is prepared to do whatever it takes to keep money cheap. This is the SAME rhetoric they were spouting back in April that caused the rates to plummet all through May and June.

This brief spike caused by the Bond market tanking as it NEVER has before was caused by Greenspan cutting rates by only a quarter in June instaed of a half. This caused the bond speculators to assume the FED saw things improving and would be raising rates shortly. That rate "cut" actuall RAISED interst rates for the consumer.

Obviously THAT has backfired on them. I will predict a MINIMUM .25 bps CUT at this month's meeting NO WAY will they raise the overnight rate. This will bring the bond speculators back into the fray and rates could go LOWER than they were this summer.

PEACE...
m...



[Edited on 9-6-2003 by Springer]

If they go to far with this who thinks we could get a constituional amendment handled? I have friends who actually beleive it would be easier to revolt than acheive this!

Considering it has been done 27 times I have a hard time beleiving this... What say you?

PEACE...
m...

...Is the possibility of the economic condition of the US being manipulated to near the point of collapse,with a disaster or terrorist act (like there really is such a thing),being used to push the whole works over the edge.
If this is the plan,it is very nearly accomplished,the economy IS NOT improving,the books have been cooked to make it appear so.
Springer,you are right about how much danger many are in when they do the refinance thing,they refinance because they think they need more money,if they stopped wasting their money things would remain stable for longer,but here in america people are generally naive to the way things work,thye don't look ahead,they don't have accurate information.
I have been studying these things for about 2 years straight,there are ways to prove that most mortgages are fraudulent,all you have to do is read them,there are trap doors in them that would make it legal to foreclose on someone for nothing,and the only reason foreclosures happen is because people just drop the ball and let the bank take their house.
Go find the promissory note if you can,you won't get it in your paperwork after closing most times,look and see what it means when there are signatures besides the homeowner on the promissory note.
Mine says that any person who signs the note is responsible for paying it,but of course the actual promissory note is nowhere to be found,it says that any person who is a guarantor,surety or endorser is obligated to pay it,I am none of the above,so really ,I am not obligated to pay it,the promissory note is not in the packet because it has been sold to another bank,signed by another endorser.....
Most mortgages are like this,if the situation gets any worse,the banks will simply foreclose on all those refinanced properties,knowing that the people who own them will not know what to do,the lawyers are not allowed to use this method because they are officers of the court,it would go against the actual plan to steal everyones property.
This plan is not known by most who work in the financial industry,the compartmentalisation of the different fields of finance is so no one can see the big picture.
Actually the whole thing is more complicated than that,but hopefully you can see what I mean.
The patriot act and victory act just make it legal for them to snap you for whatever the reason,leaving you with no recourse.
The patriot act and victory act are designed to get rid of those who know the truth,terrorism is fabricated to justify arresting people through these acts,your neighbors will just be told that you were associated with terrorists and they will support what the cops are doing without questioning the real reason.
This is a gross oversimplification ,but hopefully you get the basic idea of what I am talking about.
The truth could cost the banks a lot of money.
The banks basically own the government.
Americans are #ing stupid.

Depending on the state you live, Texas, for example, it VERY hard to foreclose. It gets done mind you but Homestead laws make it difficult...

THe "Note" is a permanent document that you absolutley should have received in your copy package. Regardless of who "services" the mortgage, the "note" remains the same as the day the loan was closed. Unfortunately due to Human incompetence and neglect of details, many do not get all the copies they should. All you have to do is call the title company or attorney (depending on how your state closes loans) that closed your transactyion and request another copy of the note.

I am not sure how you figure the mortgage servicing companies can foreclose on someone unless they don't make their payments, in which case it still takes up to 3 months to do. Add to that the protection of the Bankruptsy Courts and you can really avoid foreclosure fairly easy. Obviously ALL of this requires the parties involved playing by the rules.

If you get mixed up with a crooked company whose priority is issuing loans to financially uneducated indeviduals with hope of using foreclosure to acquire properties than all bets are off. This has actually happened several times in the past.

Regarding the "Banks" owning the country I would say, The FED RUNS the country, no doubt, but if yuou dig a little deeper you'll find that Insurance Companies really "own" thye country.

Over 65% of all the big office buildings, large commercial centers and the like are actually OWNED by big insurance companies. They have several layers of "management" between them and us so it is hard to spot without going to the public records and actually looking at deeds.

This is a scary thought in some eyes. That's a WHOLE LOT of prime urban realestate owned by one industry. The banks are typically owned by insurance companies also. Look at mutual funds, most are underwritten by large insurance companies and used as an investment tool for all those premium dollars they are collecting.

Well, if the insurance company owns the mutual they own the stock in the mutual fund which means they own a portion of each company represented in the mutual fund.

Now take all the mutual funds (and other stock purchases as well) and combine them, what have you got? A BUNCH of owned stock, which translates to ALOT of voting power in corporate america.

Banks are nothing more than investments, you can start one yourself if you can find enough investors to front you the seed money. Get depositors or start making loans against real property collateral and bingo you are in business. Guess what industry is the NUMBER 1 "investor" in banks? Yep, the insurance industry. Go look at any major insurance company's portfolio. Dig down to the indevidual stock level and see what they hold.

PEACE...
m...

Insurance companies seem to exist in a kind of netherworld between the banks and the government,The banks are the branch of the financial system,the insurance companies are more involved in the legal system,the government gets pushed around by both because between the two there is a lot of control wielded by them with money to buy votes.
It's all just about as crooked as it can be without being outward enough to alert the people which feed the system.
I am still trying to put this all together,it is difficult to get the whole picture because many of the pieces of the puzzle are hidden from view.
I just don't understand how so many people think this is OK,they got sucked into a system that nearly has them living like slaves in fear of being.
-unemployed
-under-insured
-attacked by terrorists......yeah..
-lots more...
Somehow everyone seems to have been tricked into fearing a lot of things,and another group has figured out how to capitalise on it.
it's all a lie.

Things seem to be coming together more clearly as a result of individual specializations of ATS posters this month:

* jagdflieger on bank ownership and profiting from economic hardship, and Springer giving us a tight forecast

* the "Bush-bashers" being vindicated by Michael Meacher's outburst about 9/11 and the lies of Iraq - the first honest statement by a British ex-Minister doing a Peter Finch impersonation from Network.

(Notice this response: "Mr Meacher's fantastic allegations -- especially his assertion that the US government knowingly stood by while terrorists killed some 3,000 innocents in New York, Pennsylvania and Virginia -- would be monstrous, and monstrously offensive, if they came from someone serious or credible." ) But no denial!

* dragonrider on what is about to happen with martial law (I would be more worried about that today than yesterday)

* Unbalanced lending his unique balance to all these affairs

* JN just posted a timely reminder about the Patriot Act, so we could bump this topic!


PS - I did not write Meacher's speech for him, but he can pay me some royalties any time he wants to.