Islam is the real problem

I have read and read and read all the book I could on Islam and terror. Most have some pathetic story of the poor Muslims and how the west is the problem and that we just don't understand the true Muslim. Folsk that was until I read the Quran and studied a bit of Islamic history. Let me start by saying that I am an Independant and not a Dem or Rep. I do hope and pray for our courty every day, regardless of occupies the seats of government.

That being said, let elaborate. The very word "Islam" means submission. A muslim one who submits.

O you who believe! Obet Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority.

-Surah 4:59 Noble Quran

The Quran is broken into chapter and verse similar to that of any book, they are called Surah. But what most do not know is that it is not in chronological order. What they may also not be aware of is that there are two very different Qurans. One is out of Saudi Arabia :The Noble Quran and another translated by Abdullah Yusef Ali. You should be aware of this and know that western version is using the Ali version, as it is more palatable for conversions. When people make thier first trip to Mecca they learn what real Islam is all about the first time they hear from the Noble Quran. Here is one of many examples:

Surah 8:39

And fight them on until there is no more tulmult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere.

Ali translation

Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will be for Allah alone.

Noble Quran

See the difference? Pressing on.

Next we come to the hadith. These are the books that record Muhammad's life from his wives and close friends. These come in a set of six books. They are referrenced by the author of the book who recorded them.

There are two major groups of Muslims. The sunni and Shiites. The Sunni's claim all of the Hadith as holy while the Shiites claim all but the books of Muhammads second wife.

You need to be aware of the hadith because it instructs Muslims how they are follow the example of Muhammad.

The last item you should be aware of that is followed by Muslims is the Sharia, which is the Islamic law regarding duty to Allah.

The Quran and hadith are based on what are know as the five pillars of faith. They are:

Statement of belief: i.e There is only one God and his name is Allah and Muhhamad is his prophet

Prayer: They must pray five times a day

Giving Alms: Similar to a tax at the end of the year

Fasting: Done during Ramadan during daylight hours

Pilgrimage: Once in thier lives they must travel to Mecca

Why is it so improtant that Muslims follow to the letter the words of the Quran? Because it is a religion of works. You must earn your way to Paradise. The only way to bypass this is die in Jihad. I'll prove it:

Then as for him whose balance (of good deads) will be heavy, he will live a pleasant life (in Paradise). But as for him whose balance will be light, he will have his home in Hawiyah (hell).

-Surah 101:6-9 Noble Q

In other words there is no guarantee of heaven even if you do good. It all depends on Allah.

But...if you die fighting the infidel in Jihad, you are guaranteed a place in Paradise.

Jihad is fighting anybody who stands in the way of spreading Islam. Or fighting anyone who refuses to enter Islam.

-Surah 8:39 Noble Q

Let those (believers) who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter fight in the Cause of Allah, and whoso fights in the Cause of Allah, and is killed or gets victory, We shall bestow on him a great reward.

-Surah 4:74 Noble Q

For them Allah has got ready Gardens (Paradise) under which rivers flow, to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success.

- Surah 9:89 n Noble Q

During a burial procedure the ones who died normally are washed and given a clean robe. Those who in Jihad are kept bloody as a testement of thier worth.

So, dying in Jihad is the only SURE way of reaching heaven. What would you do? Duh, where is the plastic explosive?

The last thing you need to know is that the life of Muhammad was very instrumental in how the Quran is interpreted. Teh early verses say lots of good things and later on her talks of the sword being the answer to the infidels. The reasons are simple. Just like most dictators who espouse change in society (in whatever form) lie early on and turn baby killer after the words are not recieved well. He started off in Mecca preaching and trying to convert folks and when they kicked him out he went to Medina. There he found followers and turn the sword on his countrymen who turned him out. After that is was all downhill.

Why are telling me this history crap for anyway (some folks are thinking). It is important because lie the early verses he says good things even about Jews and Christians. Like most of the "Heifer" (read about it) there are 114 verses saying sweet things. What about those? Well here is the deal, there are great deal of contradictions in the Quran and the way they fix them is take the later part to replace the former part if they are in contradiction. It is as if they do not exist. Here is an example:

Surah 2:219 compaired to Surah 5:90 (you look them up and stop being ignorant)

When these things happen they are referred to as Naskh, or a later revelation to Muhammad. So it must be more current and therefore more valid.

Example of this Surah 2:62-109 (warm and fuzzy) being cacelled by Surah 9:5:

Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and sieze them, beleager them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them; For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most merciful

Riiiiight.....

This is the verse know as the verse of the sword, and explains why Muslims must fight anyone who chooses not to convert to Islam, inside a Muslim country or out.

The principle of Jihad is ever present in a muslims life if he read the Quran and just because the Queen of Jordan says it isn't so should look to the book she is referrinf to. It isn't one of peace but on of war and extremism.

She said women are eual and don't really have to wear the Hijab. well let's just see if she was right.

Surah's

4:3 2:229 4:11 4:34 33:53 33:33 4:34 33:59 33:35


Hmmmm, not Exactly what she said huh?

But why would she say that the Quran was such a peaceful book and that Islam is such a great religion?

Hello...converts and another way of Jihad is to make converts through lies and softness, fuzzyness and charity.

Here is the thing about people...they are sheep and need a shepherd. They won't look things up for themselves and take what the media pushed as gospel. People are lazy and want everything handed to them on a silver platter.

I am not going to get all Bible on you guys but if you are in Islam get out. You are going down a road that will lead to either a black nothing (as agnostics think) coming back as bug (as the Hindu and Buddist think) or hell as Christians think). There will be no heaven for you unless you strap a bomb on yourself and kill others. Don't be lied to look it up. And when you see it thank me a bit for showing you the light.

ROMAD...out

First of all I think this post is pretty hateful and shouldn't even be here, but that's for the mods to decide. As well, this has nothing to do with the paranormal and it should be in the religion forum if anywhere.

Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them

The Bible says pretty much the same thing in quite a few places. God ordered his people to destroy false idols and people who worship other gods as well. Some people in the Jewish faith believe that if a Gentile is laying there dying, you should not try to save their life, and that all Jewish matters should be kept separate from those of the Gentiles, etc. So please don't think that Islam is the only religion that does this.

Christianity is like the continuation on from Judiasm; and in the same way, Muslim is a carrying-on of Christianity. It is just a religious evolution. Muslims accept the entire Bible, they believe in Jesus, but they only consider him a prophet, not the true son of God, whom they consider Mohammed as.

Well here is the deal, there are great deal of contradictions in the Quran

Same with the Bible...

Why is it so improtant that Muslims follow to the letter the words of the Quran? Because it is a religion of works. You must earn your way to Paradise.

Again, Same with the Bible...

I am not going to get all Bible on you guys but if you are in Islam get out.

Arrogant people like you are why the world is at war. Take some time to step outside your box and take a look at it from their point of view. But I don't feel like arguing all of the politics of this topic at the moment, because it would be a lot of typing and frustration on both our parts, so I'll leave it to the next person.

One final thought... if Muslims were all bloodthirsty monsters... why would they be going to great lengths here in America to teach their youth the true, peaceful ways of Islam... and that they should NOT condone terrorism, and that their religion does not accept it.

By the way, I am not Muslim.

[edit on 2-9-2005 by Yarcofin]

". the NWO has had overwhelming success in turning humans against each other. you need to read 'and the truth shall set you free' by david icke to open your mind..

*edited out personal insult*

[edit on 3-9-2005 by Amuk]

Why can;t ppl understand, that the REAL problem of all these BS we are looking at now is due to.................

IGNORANCE..........

People don;t seem to care much about others,and view things they deem fit for their Eyes, Ego, Beliefs.

STUPIDILITY...........

People go for things they wanted, material, ideals, physical. Completely forgetting that what lies ahead, or don;t bother to give the surroundings a look when they saw what they wanted in front of them.

FREEDOM ABUSED.........

People like to bring up Freedom this and Freedom that. They only look at their own FREEDOM and totally forgetting that they ARE RAPING FREEDOM of others.

That a simple good look around you. You understand.

Yarcofin and Humster, you've made great posts.

Romad, what is it about Islam that frightens you?

Have you had a negative experience with a Muslim?

Do you even vaguely understand what it is to be a Muslim? Are you simply believing the propaganda machine you see online?

Would it not be more productive for you to actually spend time with some Muslims, getting to know them, trying to see the world from a different point of view?

The thread isn't a slug-fest. If anything, it's a Rant...and even then, it's just vitriolic ignorance trying to disguise itself as a valid argument.

People, for one, the idea that Islam is the problem is not a new one and it is fairly far reaching, so being that you can't judge the intent of ROMAD, I wouldn't say it's hateful.

We are all Ignorant, but personally I believe it's all rooted in Nazi Germany who supported the "Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the viciously anti-Semitic Grand Mufti of Jerusalem".

One of his followers was Yasser Arafat, whom I think we all know. It's rooted in , what I see as, a perversion of Islam against the Jews who are funded by whom? The US.

Hate brings more hate time and time again, and we can see the effects of Hitler even in Christian circles in Europe, America, and what was Russia.

I don't think anyone is implying that Islam is a new problem

However, it'd be like saying "Christianity is the problem" when we're discussing those few bad pennies who have bombed abortion clinics; in other words, it's an inaccurate and grossly overgeneralized statement that really has little basis in reality.

The problem with the Islamic terrorist groups comes from the very small minority. Just as the problems with any religiously-based terrorist group comes from the small minority within that belief system.

Radical followers will always be "the problem". It's not the religion itself.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that boiled down ideas like "Islam is the real problem" are wrong, factually.

The real problem are people looking for individual groups to place blame on because they don't adhere with their own personal beliefs.

for christians, don't you suppose to tolerate such things?

a lot of people have their priorities wrong.

I seriously doubt that Muslims were behind 9/11 to begin with. Just like in 1933, the Nazis set fire to the Reichstag building and blamed it on Communists.

Even if Muslims were involved, we're invading the wrong countries.

Umm, I am working right now with a muslim in my studio, and he is one of the nicest and most respectful people I know. Had this thread been titled "Muslim Extremists are the problem" I think you might have been closer to the mark.

True American - I agree with your statement on Muslim Extremism.

However, I believe it is Muslim Extremism which is creeping in to be Islamic mainstream.

Christianity is not really any better when it comes to violence. Some of the worst moments in history have been carried out in the name of Christ.

But the simple statement, always made by those who are not practising Christians, christians are supposed to be tolerant, christianity is no better etc etc miss the whole point. The fact there is a need for Christianity means we are all sinners and the only sinless person was Christ himself. Just because Christianity preaches a sinless life and tolerance does not make christians the most tolerant and sinless. That is the whole reason christians worship Christ, in an effort to become like Him.

Originally posted by lev1978
However, I believe it is Muslim Extremism which is creeping in to be Islamic mainstream.

Perhaps it is, but I think it's fair to say that perhaps they are only hearing half of the coin like many of us are by the media. Honestly, I don't think they even have the variety we have overall, although there are many fairly modern places (and oddly some ski resorts too).

They could very easily be angry over the killing of Muslims by us, although I can't really say that's the cause.

I think we are talking about just the religion though. If what you say is true then the religion couldn't be the only thing if it even was one of the causes.

I am just wondering, you have one religion telling everyone to submit to God....then you have another telling men to submit to god, but women to submit to men??
I think I'll just stay away from this board, I don't want to find my self supporting Islam.

both holy books tell them to kill the unbelievers, by the way.
the koran acknowledges the sacredness of life when it comes to unborn babies, the bible doesn't.
the words in the koran, not many or the traditions though, ensure that women have the right to enter the mosque for worship, the bible does not.

Perhaps the problem may be more like the interpretation of religion rather than the religion itself, and how that interpretation is acted upon.

Both of the major religions have their extreme and violent interpretations, both have their peaceful interpretations. Islam, or at least believers of Islam, as far as I see it anyway, are beginning to adopt the more extreme version and are acting accordingly.

I watched a documentary about this once, most muslims are just people that want to get on with life and don't want war. There are some radical extremists that want to kill america and destroy western cultures. Muslims might have their own political feelings and hate the United States, but how would you feel when Israel constantly attacks them with the US backing them up.

As a Pagan, I can tell you everything you posted about Muslims and their intolerance applies to Christians as well. Since you have supposedly "studied" Islam, I invite you to do the same with Christianity and Judism. I know how "tolerant" Christianity is. I have seen:

1. Christians call prominent local Pagans and make death threats.
2. Have been attacked by Christians for wearing a pentagram.
3. My friend opened up a Pagan store/community center, and had her tires slashed, her kids harrassed and attacked, and rude phone calls from people claiming to do the Lord's work.
4. My family has scorned and harrassed me for my beliefs. They are all protestant Christians.
5. While celebrating the Full Moon at a friends house with our group, some local Christians decided to burn a cross on the lawn. By the time the cops arrived, they fled.

Lets look at the history of Christianity, shall we?

1. Europe was converted to Christianity by force and sword.
2. The inquisition and the years of burning heretics (i.e. scientists who said the world was round) were supoorted and enforced by Christians. Dont gimmie this crap that was the "Catholics". The first with trials on US soil were committed by Protestants.

Anyone who has read the bible knows it is full of abomination, condoning murder, genocide, rape, torture, and theft.

"Holy" Bible

We all know that historically, Christians have been far from perfect. They have commited murder. They have commited genocide, the Albigensian Crusade is one perfect example of this.

This is the same old argument that gets dragged up whenever another religion is criticised.

Well christians are much better ,think of all the wars fought in the name of christianity, blah blah blah.....

No body has ever claimed christians are perfect. The whole point of christianity is that we (as a whole, to included non christians as well as christians) as not perfect.

The point at the moment is that Islam is being hijacked (no pun intended) by those who wish to spread violence and death throughout the world. This view is then openly propogated by islamic clerics and is gradually spreading to replace mainstream islamic doctrine. (all the goods thing we hear from muslims when terrorist acts are commited).

[edit on 22-10-2005 by lev1978]

last comment was not meant as an attack, more to explain my own ignorance of islam



[edit on 22-10-2005 by lev1978]

All religion is the problem. Until humans figure that out there will be no hope for us. Sad but true.