Frosty's Three Laws of Fraudulent Perpetual and Free-Energy Machines

Occasionally on this forum, and others, there are post about free energy or perpetual motion machines. These are frauds and this post intends to prove why.

First Law: USPTO.

These designs may appear to work on paper at first glance, but have various flaws or obfuscated external power sources that render them useless in practice. This sort of "invention" has become common enough that the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) has made an official policy of refusing to grant patents for perpetual motion machines without a working model. One reason for this concern is that a few "inventors" have waved a patent in front of potential investors, who may believe that said patent proves the machine works.
en.wikipedia.org...

The USPTO will not knowingly issue a patent for a perpetual motion machine and the American Physical Society states, "The American Physical Society deplores attempts to mislead and defraud the public based on claims of perpetual motion machines or sources of unlimited useful free energy, unsubstantiated by experimentally tested established physical principles."
inventors.about.com...

This means that all websites (businesses) claiming to have a patent without a working model are frauds, those which claim to have a working model without a patent are likewise frauds.

Second Law: The history of such machines.

Here is a link with a small exerpt dating the history of these devices back froom the 13th Century!

Villand de Honnecourt 13th century had a drawing of one.
Leonardo da vinci made a number of drawings of things he hoped would make energy for free.
Jesuit priest, Johanes Taisnerius worked on a magnetic based perpetual motion machine
Mimara in 1518 designed a "self-blowing windmill"
John Dee of 16th century reported seeing one - but wasn't allowed a closer look
Cornelis Drebbel 1610, was an alchemist and magician supposedly made one. (hundreds have tried to replicate alchemy too)
Robert Fludd 1630 proposed many machines -people were trying to patent variations of Fludd's failures in the 1870's
1635 - first of many English perpetual motion machine patents granted. - by 1903, 600 such patents had been granted. Free energy claimants love impressing people with patents (most people don't understand that a patent can't promise feasibility)
Edward Somerset 1638 demonstrated many lacking free energy water wheels to the king of France
Ulrich von Carnach in 1664 in Germany designed a perpetual ball moving machine that never worked.
scientist Jean Bernoulli(1667 - 1748) proposed a fluid energy machine
Bockler in 1686 made designs for self powered water mills.
inventors.about.com...://www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html

If the USPTO and hundreds of failed attempts over hundreds of years have not yet convinced you...

Third Law: The First and Second Laws of C.P. Snow's Themodynamics.

A perpetual motion machine of the first kind is one which produces power without energy uptake. Such a machine would, once started, operate indefinitely. This is forbidden by the law of conservation of energy.

A perpetual motion machine of the second kind is one which converts heat completely into other forms of energy. Such a device would violate the second law of thermodynamics and would be viewed with great skepticism.

encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com...

Still not convinced? Well, then you must either be stubborn or just laughing at me while your ac is being powered by your free energy machine.

But I do hope this is a deterent to future post and a 'buyer be ware' type warning for those who have not known previously the information above. It should also make a good reference point if future post should arrise.

[edit on 26-8-2005 by Frosty]

Thank you! Very succinct and helpful. We periodically hear of "inventors" who are "raising capital" for a machine that they SWEAR will work and will be in every home in a few years (get in now and get rich.)

These are known scams. One guy seems to run them on a regular cycle -- as far as we can tell, he's just doing it when he runs short of cash.

Anyway, I hope folks will pay attention to your note, because when you go through the claims of the scammers who will take your money and run, you've hit every single red flag on them. Well, that and the old dodge of "government is hiding the truth! The oil companies are trying to kill me!"

It's a shame, when I saw the page for that perendev power's magnetic motor, I was so hoping it was real

But how many years have passed without proof of a real model existing?

The latest video he's thrown up doesn't show the initial accelerating and when it is powering down, there's a small glitch in the video, which could be nothing, but it could also be a sign that during that glitch, he removed a motor from the wheel

*shrugs*

Hail the Law of Conservation of Energy!

Debunker of more crap than any other statement in the history of man!

Frosty,Bravo on your post.There is in fact no such thing as a perpetual motion machine,and certainly no way to provide free energy.Can't be done.

A posting on one of the threads made a reference to Focaults pendulum as a perpetual motion machine and suggested it be magnetized somehow to provide electricity.Neat idea but it would mean destruction for the machine.

The reason it has kept going is because of the negligable amount of resistance in the device.If this pendulum were in another environment or some sort of added piece introduced it would change the working of the device by increasinfg the amount of resistance it encounters and causing it to slow down at a faster rate than it is.

That said ,you should bear in mind that there are many inventors and researchers developing ways to produce power with various devices.Check out the permanent magnet motor thread for one reference.While some erroneously believe they are developing 'free energy' devices, they are not.What they are developing are means to transfer energy from one source,magnets,into another type of energy, electrical power.

Ther have been patented devices that can do this.A Dr. Howard Johnson was working on just such an apparatus until his death.So it can be done.There are a great many problems to be worked out in the concept,and one researcher alone will not be able to find the solution.It will have to come from many different projects,working seperatly,but towards a common goal.

Please try not to ridicule or over-criticize any piece of work simply because it goes against commonly accepted laws of physics.The world of science is constantly changing and evolving.Like I have saisd before,once we thought the world was flat.We believed that the Earth was the center of the universe.We believed we could not travel faster than sound.But you get the idea of what I am saying here.

Perhaps you would like to way in on the PMM project.You seem quite well informed,maybe you could share some insight or resources to help us out.
And too,possibly dig up some more of these charlatons who would have us think we can get free power.

The laws of science change to meet new knowledge and the world grows because of it.Maybe we can change a few laws.

First perpetual doesnt mean forever, it just means an extreme amount of time. Second energy comes from somewhere, it isnt exactly free enrgy. From something we will probably never understand for a very very very long time. Noone can explain where atoms come from, so noone can explain where exnergy comes from. But somehow we think were qualified to make scientific laws and preach.

I agree with the Patent Office not accepting patents without a working prototype. All patents should be like that. Someone gets lucky and capitalizes on something they didnt invent but just dreamed up and patented. That would be wrong.

I disagree with Frosty saying that because the last 500 years it has never been done that it cant be done in the future. Scientists 100 years ago knew very little compared to what we know now. Computers, Radios, Electricity, all didnt exist in thier time (according to History).

And I disagree even more for you to say you beleive in the laws of thermodynamics. It is theoretical. Modern science has existed for under 100 years. There is very little we know. And defiantly not in a position to claim "laws".

You are better fit for office duty then science. My opinion. Politics specifically, you seem to have their illogical mentality.

[edit on 3-9-2005 by YaYo]

Originally posted by YaYo
First perpetual doesnt mean forever, it just means an extreme amount of time.

Perpetual means infinite or with out end, look it up in the dictionary. Why would someone call it perpetual if it weren't without end, if it weren't it would just be an energy machine.

Second energy comes from somewhere, it isnt exactly free enrgy.

We call this source — matter. E=Mc² There are various forms of energy such as potential and kinetic.

Computers, Radios, Electricity, all didnt exist in thier time (according to History).

Electricity has always existed, Farrady who lived during the 19th century is concidered the father of electrical engineering, computers have existed for 100's of years. Radios were being tinkered around with by Rutherford, Hertz and Marconi during the late 19th century (according to history).

en.wikipedia.org...
www.hitmill.com...
history.acusd.edu...

But what does this have to do with perpetual motion machines?

And I disagree even more for you to say you beleive in the laws of thermodynamics. It is theoretical. Modern science has existed for under 100 years. There is very little we know. And defiantly not in a position to claim "laws".

So why are 'theories' always brought up in the fields of physics, electrical engineering and chemistry and applied within? Care to take a crack at disproving any of the thermodynamics?

en.wikipedia.org...

E = MC squared doesnt answer the question of what energy is made of. It doesnt explain where atoms come from. It doesnt explain what matter is. It doesnt explain anything but a "formula" of how it appears to work and how it appears to behave.

Perpetual might not be the best word. Even if you create a machine that can operate forever, what if it breaks? What if friction starts to wear it down and it falls apart? What I mean when I say perpetual motion is something in theory could work forever not considering if it stayed put together.

I was saying about the computers and radios because you said that people since the 13th century have been trying and failed to create a perpetual machine. And you make a statement that it must not be possible because of that reason. I was just saying I didnt agree with you because someone in the 10th century would look at moderan day technology and might think it impossible. Just pointing out your faulty logic.

[edit on 4-9-2005 by YaYo]

nothing can go forever, the universe is going to burnout someday. And all of these engines that dont use any energy actually do use energy, be gravity, heat, sunlight...whatever. The energy is there for use to use, we just havnt been using it.

You guys will probably appreciate this site...

www.everlifeflashlight.com...

Saw it advertised on tv. Never needs batteries. Seems very suspicious to me. More free energy.

It does use energy, kinetic energy (shaking) is transfered to electric energy. that isnt the first one I have seen. Same principle as those emergency radios that have a crank on them so you can power it during grid downtime.

Not free energy, kenetic energy. They obvoiusly exagerate, but LEDs require very little power to be very bright. They have flashlights you can "pump up" which spins a small fly-wheel which charges a battery, and after a minute or so you can have 5 minutes of light woo. LEDs would be ideal to use in such an application.

I have a quick question. I have been interested in Joseph Newman for a long time. If you are familiar with his work he has created an "energy machine" which produces more output then input. His work is based on Nicola Tesla's Energy Coil. Which has patents and is used all around the world today.

He has claimed in his book that he has patents in countries all around the world, except the US. He has spent over 1 million dollars trying to patent his machine in the US.

Anyways my question is how would I go about finding proof of his patents in other countries? As these patents could prove his machine was legit. Thus proving there may truth to his claims.

[edit on 9-4-2005 by CPYKOmega]

Originally posted by YaYo
E = MC squared doesnt answer the question of what energy is made of. It doesnt explain where atoms come from. It doesnt explain what matter is. It doesnt explain anything but a "formula" of how it appears to work and how it appears to behave.

Perpetual might not be the best word. Even if you create a machine that can operate forever, what if it breaks? What if friction starts to wear it down and it falls apart? What I mean when I say perpetual motion is something in theory could work forever not considering if it stayed put together.

I was saying about the computers and radios because you said that people since the 13th century have been trying and failed to create a perpetual machine. And you make a statement that it must not be possible because of that reason. I was just saying I didnt agree with you because someone in the 10th century would look at moderan day technology and might think it impossible. Just pointing out your faulty logic.

[edit on 4-9-2005 by YaYo]

Energy does come from matter. Matter=energy. Energy is a byproduct of work from matter. When an atom is weighed as a whole it ways x amount. When the atom is bombarded by a particle and splits, and the two remaining pieces are weighed, they weigh y amount. Why does the two combined parts weigh different than the whole part? Energy has been released during this proccess, also known as fission.

You should realize that electrical science has been around since the 19th century and that from the above links that many perpetual energy devices have been invented since Faraday. People during Faraday's time could have come up with this concept (in another thread), I'd even wager to say they did.

Anyways my question is how would I go about finding proof of his patents in other countries?

Search the specific countries patent office via search engine.

The laws of thermodynamics, as we understand the physical universe, can't be broken. But physical laws don't explain everything. For example: If energy is simply always there--it just changes form; how do you explain our being here? The big bang?

You never explained how matter is created or where it came from. Or what created the stuff that created matter, etc etc.

e=mcsquared is nothing. I would say definatly the laws of thermodynamics can be broken.

[edit on 4-9-2005 by YaYo]

Originally posted by YaYo
You never explained how matter is created or where it came from. Or what created the stuff that created matter, etc etc.

e=mcsquared is nothing. I would say definatly the laws of thermodynamics can be broken.

[edit on 4-9-2005 by YaYo]

This isn't the the thread to discuss how matter or energy is formed. This thread is simply concerned with the way energy and matter flow through space and through bodies, known as thermodynamics and its relation to why perpetual motion machines cannot exist. Your interest are more well served in a discussion about the big bang.

Enrico Fermi used to E=Mc² to help calculate the energy output of CP-1 very accuratly. It is something.

Please say how the laws of thermodynamics are broken without going off topic.

How the heck would a big bang theory explain where matter came from.

It might explain how matter created elements, but other then that it doesnt cover the aspect of actually creating matter or energy.

But a perpetual motion machine doesnt necessarily have to break the laws of thermodynamics. If there is unlimited energy to use, then it is possible that the machine can operate infinitely.

[edit on 4-9-2005 by YaYo]

Heh, someone always invokes the second law. It's like Godwin's law it seems (en.wikipedia.org...).

Anyway, the second law is an approximation, and has been broken, rendering it obsolete (as a law, not as a statistical measurement).

You can read about it here: www.newscientist.com...

The team say their experiment provides the first evidence that the second law of thermodynamics is violated at appreciable time and length scales.

Originally posted by Indy
You guys will probably appreciate this site...

www.everlifeflashlight.com...

Saw it advertised on tv. Never needs batteries. Seems very suspicious to me. More free energy.

You just don't get it do you?!?!?!?!

THIS IS NOT FREE ENERGY!

Just because the light doesn't use the chemical energy stored in batteries, it does not necessarily mean that the energy comes from nowhere. You are expending energy from your hand and arm by shaking a magnet through a coil. This causes the magnet to pass through a coil of wires. This creates a changing magnetic flux. A changinc magnetic flux through a coil of wires causes the electrons to flow in that coil, causing a current. This current then powers the light.

IT'S NOT FREE ENERGY!

The light will stay as long as the magnet is passing through the coil to make a flux. The magnet keeps passing through the coil as long as you shake the flashlight. Your arm will get tired BECAUSE IT IS CONSUMING ENERGY. You arm will need more energy. It will need fuel.

It will use glucose. It gets the energy from glucose by breaking it down unto two molecules of pyruvate, mixing it with oxaloacetate to make citrate. This is then passed around and broken down bit by bit and reformed into a new molecule of oxaloacetate, which is then mixed with a new molecule of pyruvate that came from a new glucose molecule. The bits that got broken off are used to form a molecule called NADH. The electrons from this are passed through an electron transport chain in your mitochondria to help phosphorylyze adenosine triphosphate, the freakin' molecule that is VERY HIGH IN ENERGY, AND IS BROKEN DOWN TO RELEASE ENERGY IN YOUR BODY WHEN IT NEEDS IT.

So, in the end, you can honestly and scientifically say that your precious perpetual flashlight is actually powered by TABLE SUGAR.

EDITED SECTION:

Go here please
www.pearsoncustom.com...

then here
www.people.virginia.edu...

then here
www.people.virginia.edu...

then here
www.park.edu...

NEXT:

E = MC squared doesnt answer the question of what energy is made of. It doesnt explain where atoms come from. It doesnt explain what matter is. It doesnt explain anything but a "formula" of how it appears to work and how it appears to behave.

Perpetual might not be the best word. Even if you create a machine that can operate forever, what if it breaks? What if friction starts to wear it down and it falls apart? What I mean when I say perpetual motion is something in theory could work forever not considering if it stayed put together.

I was saying about the computers and radios because you said that people since the 13th century have been trying and failed to create a perpetual machine. And you make a statement that it must not be possible because of that reason. I was just saying I didnt agree with you because someone in the 10th century would look at moderan day technology and might think it impossible. Just pointing out your faulty logic.

Friction will not only wear out your machine, but friction actually generates heat, which means that energy is escaping from your machine, which means that will NOT last forever, or even a very long time for that matter.

Here is what physicists will admit: There are certain things that we cannot explain WHY they work, but we absolutely can explain HOW they work.

You can't have perpetual motion because parts of your machine must touch each other, and therefore must have friction. Electricity is very fickle - it is not magical and does not travel only in the direction of your wire. The electricity actually tries to radiate perpendicularly to the direction of your wire. You LOSE energy in wires. It cannot be stopped.

And if some jerk in Europe or wherever invented a machine that puts out more energy than it requires, then why doesn't he rule the world? Why doesn't he end world hunger? If his machine actually creates a positive output of energy, then he would have an infinite fuel source. With an infinite fuel source, it could be converted to a fuel source that plants and lifestock could use. With an infinite source, there would be infinite animals. The mass of all the living things on the earth would increase because there is an infinite fuel source to power them all.

Gimme a freakin' break.

[edit on 7-9-2005 by trinitrotoluene]