The sin of Adam and Eve

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But, until they had eaten from it, they did not understand that they should obey god, because they had no knowledge yet of good and evil.

How then can god hold them (and more bizarrely, us) accountable for disobeying, when they did not yet have the capicity to understand that disobedience was wrong?

[edit on 25-8-2005 by spamandham]

[edit on 25-8-2005 by spamandham]

Let alone the " Original Sin" where does it say that this was a sin?
All Adam ( mankind) did was partake of Knowledge. A Knowledge that made them Equal to Lord God. ( To Know right from wrong)
He know longer could control them, This is why they were thrown out of the Garden " Man Has become as One Of US"
They became Like the Gods, To have a conscious! To know
Its something like this..... Lets say you are a slave, an you never got to learn, read, write. An your master worked you an worked you an this is all you ever did. You did for him only. Ok, Then all sudden, some wise person comes to you an says " Hey, did you know your naked?" LOL. Put some clothes on, your not like the animals.

Then this person also taught you things that you never knew. all sudden you can read, write, an learn right from wrong an also know that you was`nt being treated fairly.
and so you go hide from your master because your afraid that if he finds out that in stead of working you was off at school learning, an you came into all kinds of knowledge. So when Master finds you, you pass the buck by saying woman made me do it, Then woman says well this wise one showed me all these things so I taught the man.

So what happens, they all get a curse put on them, called Death.
But remember, The wise one told them that they would not surely Die! an taught them the way to Immortality.

"of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen 2:16-17)

You can eat of any tree here, but of THAT TREE when you do eat (for in THAT DAY)from there on you will DIE ...taste DEATH ..DEATH was not made.MAN WAS MADE INCORRUPT, with an INCORRUPT BODY!
After the fall......man became mortal.......
God told them.
They disobeyed one RULE......and things changed.......

read also the post about Genesis..... here

from spamandham///
God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But, until they had eaten from it, they did not understand that they should obey god, because they had no knowledge yet of good and evil.

How then can god hold them (and more bizarrely, us) accountable for disobeying, when they did not yet have the capicity to understand that disobedience was wrong?

They had everything they needed.....all was good.
One braeking of the law ......for when you do eat from that tree , you shall surely die.
Nature changed ......everything around them changed.....ORIGINAL SIN is their OWN DISOBEDIENCE.......not OURS, as many beleive!

DEATH.....was the result of eating of that fruit......STING OF DEATH.

OUR SINS are ours alone......we are accountable for our sins....

the Son of God assumed our humanity, and being without sin "He condemned sin in the flesh" (Romans 8:3).
DEATH has no hold over us anymore........all shall be made incorrupt....that is, at the end of the world at Resurrection.
and what does Jesus Christ say about destrying sin.....

"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).
Exactly what St John the Babtist the FORERUNNER OF JESUS CHRIST preached before the coming of the Messiah, who is Jesus Christ...

Jesus did not say......Whoever WANTS TO .....
He said.....
Let everyone of YOU .......be babtised for the remission of sins.

The Apostle Paul teaches in Romans 6:1-6 that in baptism we experience Christ's death and resurrection..there is NO OTHER WAY!

Jesus said, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

God concerning our sins. St. James the Apostle admonishes us to confess our sins to God before the elders, or priests, as they are called today (James 5:16).

Adam and Eve had the capacity to know all good.....since only goodness was given to them.
The passions......Lust of the flesh,excess food and loving worldly things more then prayer....man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God...meaning that prayer is needed first and then comes satisfaction of body pleasure....food

When man ate he became all knowing.......GOOD AND EVIL.....AFTER THE FALL
He knew Evil and tried to hide from their GUILT......disobedience to God for breaking the RULE.........SIN means to miss the mark....

IX
helen





[edit on 8/26/2005 by helen670]

these are interesting interpritations but there are a few indications as to how to take this story in context. as you said was god unfair to punish his children when they knew no better, also was it loving to allow the serpent remain in the garden to tempt those with no capacity to make an informed decision and if god has always been omnipotent then why didn't he know immediatly that adam and eve had eaten the fruit?

given that christians believe god to be fair, loving and omnipotent then as a christian we can not take this story to be literal. instead we must assume it to be a parabel much as the story of the good samaraten or the prodical son, and must examine the story for its true meaning.

the theme of modisty seems to be important as an indication of the loss of innoscence, also shame for ones unintentional misdemeanors and fear of god also seems to play a role, to me at least. if we assume, which many don't, that the garden of eden and the kingdom of god are interchangable consepts then the story seems to indicate the path to the kingdom of god lies in the return to innocence.

christ said that he is the way and the light and he does have teachings that indicate this path is the correct onebut i'm not looking for the quotes because i'm lazy, ones along the lines of "knowing heaven when we trample our clothes underfoot", i think thats in the gospel of thomas and the other one on the top of my head is about the children" bring the children unto me for they know my father" or somthing like that.

thats just my opinion and your entitled to yours.

Originally posted by helen670
They had everything they needed.....all was good.
One braeking of the law ......for when you do eat from that tree , you shall surely die.

Helen, you seem to be missing the point. Until they had eaten from the tree, they did not have the understanding not to eat from the tree.

Even further, there was no death prior to them eating from the tree right? So they would have had no knowledge of death. For all they knew, death was something good.

This question could be easily answered but I’m going to refrain. I don’t believe the original poster has any desire to know the truth. He or she is just looking for any excuse not to believe God’s Word.

from /Spamandham/
Helen, you seem to be missing the point. Until they had eaten from the tree, they did not have the understanding not to eat from the tree.

Even further, there was no death prior to them eating from the tree right? So they would have had no knowledge of death. For all they knew, death was something good.

There was no death prior to eating of the fruit....YES I agree!

I believe that they did have understanding of death.....because why else would the Serpant tempt eve ?

When Eve passed by, the Devil whispered to her to eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree. With cunning, he asked Eve, "Yea, hath God said, ‘Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?"

Eve answered the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, ‘Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.’"

The Devil lied in order to seduce Eve. He said, "Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

The tempting words of the Devil through the serpent acted upon Eve. She looked at the tree and saw that the tree was pleasant to the eyes, good for food, and gave knowledge; and she wanted to know good and evil. She took of the fruit from the forbidden tree and ate. Then she gave it to her husband, and he ate.

Genesis, chap. 3:1-6.

IX
helen




[edit on 8/26/2005 by helen670]

Death is a Curse. When Lord God told Adam not to partake of it, " You will surley Die" this was the curse that is to be re-moved in Rev. so the Advasary is Lord( Leader of the ) Gods!.
He is the one who rebels against the Most High.
He Is the One that put this curse of death on them!.
This is also the one that Forms Man in his own Image. I think this Lord God is a beast an this is his Image, its of a Man. he wanted to be like the Most High. This one also Kills, orders killing an he wants Blood scarifice.
What Adam an woman did was not what Caused the fall, the Fall came from the Elohims that rebelled against the most High. an as always you have a Leader of them that forms a man of the Dirt. He is a copy Cat of the most High!!! I`m so smart...LOL

Originally posted by helen670

"of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen 2:16-17)

You can eat of any tree here, but of THAT TREE when you do eat (for in THAT DAY)from there on you will DIE ...taste DEATH ..DEATH was not made.MAN WAS MADE INCORRUPT, with an INCORRUPT BODY!
After the fall......man became mortal.......
God told them.
They disobeyed one RULE......and things changed.......

read also the post about Genesis..... here

from spamandham///
God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But, until they had eaten from it, they did not understand that they should obey god, because they had no knowledge yet of good and evil.

How then can god hold them (and more bizarrely, us) accountable for disobeying, when they did not yet have the capicity to understand that disobedience was wrong?

They had everything they needed.....all was good.
One braeking of the law ......for when you do eat from that tree , you shall surely die.
Nature changed ......everything around them changed.....ORIGINAL SIN is their OWN DISOBEDIENCE.......not OURS, as many beleive!

DEATH.....was the result of eating of that fruit......STING OF DEATH.

OUR SINS are ours alone......we are accountable for our sins....

the Son of God assumed our humanity, and being without sin "He condemned sin in the flesh" (Romans 8:3).
DEATH has no hold over us anymore........all shall be made incorrupt....that is, at the end of the world at Resurrection.
and what does Jesus Christ say about destrying sin.....

"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).
Exactly what St John the Babtist the FORERUNNER OF JESUS CHRIST preached before the coming of the Messiah, who is Jesus Christ...

Jesus did not say......Whoever WANTS TO .....
He said.....
Let everyone of YOU .......be babtised for the remission of sins.

The Apostle Paul teaches in Romans 6:1-6 that in baptism we experience Christ's death and resurrection..there is NO OTHER WAY!

Jesus said, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

God concerning our sins. St. James the Apostle admonishes us to confess our sins to God before the elders, or priests, as they are called today (James 5:16).

Adam and Eve had the capacity to know all good.....since only goodness was given to them.
The passions......Lust of the flesh,excess food and loving worldly things more then prayer....man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God...meaning that prayer is needed first and then comes satisfaction of body pleasure....food

When man ate he became all knowing.......GOOD AND EVIL.....AFTER THE FALL
He knew Evil and tried to hide from their GUILT......disobedience to God for breaking the RULE.........SIN means to miss the mark....

IX
helen





[edit on 8/26/2005 by helen670]

Very well put Helen I give you 2 thumbs up...You go girl.

Just to throw an interesting twist into this fascinating discussion, what would the outcome have been if Adam hadn't hid, but came to God and said, "God, help me, I really screwed up."

Again, I find myself agreeing with pieman. The events of the Garden of Eden are unlikely to be historical, but are instead a parable. Snakes don't eat dust, no matter how much two billion christians want to sware they do. However, when one understands that man was "made of dust", then it becomes easy to see that the devil was cursed to "consume man". It's the equivalent of saying to a young doctor who was caught in the bathroom playing with a nurse, "you like bathrooms so much, you'll now be a janitor, and no longer a doctor." What the devil was before this point, we do not know, but after this point, he was stripped of his job, and made a janitor. (No disrespect to janitors, but you'll be hard pressed to find Doctors, Lawyers, and Judges, happy to trade places with you)

Originally posted by spamandham
How then can god hold them (and more bizarrely, us) accountable for disobeying, when they did not yet have the capicity to understand that disobedience was wrong?

I don't believe so far that anyone has addressed the part about how WE are held accountable for Adam's transgression. The best analogy I can conceive of goes as follows:

Just as our bodies contain muscle cells, bone cells, skin cells, so too, each human, is actually an Adam Cell. Now, when the NUCLEUS of a skin cell becomes damaged, that cell no longer understands it's function as a skin cell. It replicates itself, creating more damaged cells, each of them with a damaged nucleus. Eventually, the mass of cells becomes a tumor, which MUST be removed, for the sake of the rest of the body. In CHOOSING to disbelieve God's word, and believing instead in the Devil's word, Adam tasted disobedience, became a damaged cell, and his children therefore have inhereted this taste for disobedience.

Agent Smith was actually half right, Mankind is a disease and a cancer. The Messiah is the cure

[edit on 26-8-2005 by Behold]

Originally posted by Machine
This question could be easily answered but I’m going to refrain. I don’t believe the original poster has any desire to know the truth. He or she is just looking for any excuse not to believe God’s Word.

The original poster has no interest in your mindless apologetic drivel. Thanks for not sharing.

(plus you have the priveledge of being placed on my ignore list)

[edit on 26-8-2005 by spamandham]

Originally posted by helen670
There was no death prior to eating of the fruit....YES I agree!

I believe that they did have understanding of death.....because why else would the Serpant tempt eve ?

How could they have known what death was, unless you wish to claim that god had supernaturally given them that knowledge before they ate the fruit?

It seems pretty clear they did not understand the ramifications of eating the fruit, and/or they didn't trust god. But before they actually ate it, they were free of sin, so god himself is responsible for their nature up to that point.

Originally posted by Machine
This question could be easily answered but I’m going to refrain. I don’t believe the original poster has any desire to know the truth. He or she is just looking for any excuse not to believe God’s Word.

I'm going to respond slightly differently than spamandham did.

Though the original poster may not have any desire to know the truth, but he did ask the question, and others are reading this thread, too. 90 people so far, to be exact. Obviously, there are some people who are interested. Please, do answer, Original Sin is one of the harder concepts that I have tried to grasp, and I would be very interested to hear your take on it.

Junglejake
Though the original poster may not have any desire to know the truth, but he did ask the question, and others are reading this thread, too. 90 people so far, to be exact. Obviously, there are some people who are interested. Please, do answer, Original Sin is one of the harder concepts that I have tried to grasp, and I would be very interested to hear your take on it.

Good point Junglejake I’ll answer for your sake if for no one else. The original question was:

Spamandham
God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But, until they had eaten from it, they did not understand that they should obey god, because they had no knowledge yet of good and evil.

Spamandham has jumped to a wrong conclusion based on the facts. Adam and Eve were indeed without sin prior to eating from the tree but this in no way prevented them from choosing to obey God. Spamandham has made a wrong assumption when he declares that someone without sin cannot rightly understand how to obey God. Their intellects were powerful and fully developed at the time of their wrong decision.

God made them perfect and without sin. He also gave them the independence of will to decide to obey or not to obey God. Both of these states can be experienced at the same time without conflict.

Spamandham
How then can god hold them (and more bizarrely, us) accountable for disobeying, when they did not yet have the capicity to understand that disobedience was wrong?

I’ve answered the later part of this question above. The first part can only be fully understood from God’s perspective. From our limited Human perspective it seems unfair that God would transfer that original sin to the offspring but it is as it is.

I can assure everyone who reads this of one thing. Your sins are piled so high that you need not worry about the original state of sin you were born with. Even if God gave each one of you a free ride on original sin you would still be dead in your trespasses. Stop worrying about the sin you were born with and start worrying about the sins you commit each day. Those are just as deadly and well within your ability to understand.



Machine

I think you all got it wrong. I know my Genesis story very well.
Our Creation story in the K.J. is only 500 yrs old. We have an older version thats about 5,000 yrs old. Sumerian text. Our K.J has been Cut an snip. Edited lots an lots of times.
Bacon was the editor for K.J Aka a 32 degree mason.
So The real creation story is not what we have all been force to believe.
Theres alot of metaphors an symbols used. not to be taken literally.
Why does the Church say that taken of this Tree was the " Original sin"?
Why do they blame the woman? why is the truth deliberatly being distorted? Woman was punished because she disobeyed this Lord God.
As for loss of Immortality, " A Flaming sword to block the way to the tree of life"
No one should have to fear God this is wrong. How can you fear someone you love? Fear of God is a invention of the Clergy to control you.
Back to the Garden. When this Lord lost control over them he became angry an cursed them. This means all of US has eaten from this tree, an came under this curse.
We are able to read, write, think for our selves between right an wrong and this is not a curse at all it was a gift from the True God!. Its called Freedom

the sin of adam and eve was eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. if you understand the root word of tree , and the fact that satan is the tree being refrenced, it becomes clear what the sin actually was. Adam and eve commited sexual acts with the serpent. furthermore they knew it was wrong because God told them not to. Then they covered themselves with fig leaves over their private parts.

the parable of the fig tree (see jeremiah 24, matt 24) is referenced here as the end tiems prophecy. fig tree is always later days.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

it wasnt a apple they ate. it was partaking in the works (fruits) of satan. God will not allow anyone to go untested.

Originally posted by NuTroll
the sin of adam and eve was eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. if you understand the root word of tree , and the fact that satan is the tree being refrenced, it becomes clear what the sin actually was. Adam and eve commited sexual acts with the serpent.

It really doesn't matter what the act was.

Originally posted by NuTroll
furthermore they knew it was wrong because God told them not to.

(emphasis mine)

God did tell them not to, but they had no concept of right and wrong until after they had done it. Whether it was eating an apple or having snake sex is irrelevant. The key is that god held them accountable for an action that they were innocent of. It wasn't until after they had acted that they gained the knowledge to distinguish right from wrong.

This would be no different from executing a baby for spitting out food because you had told it not to. Anyone who would act in such a manner is insane.

Originally posted by spamandham
God did tell them not to, but they had no concept of right and wrong until after they had done it. Whether it was eating an apple or having snake sex is irrelevant. The key is that god held them accountable for an action that they were innocent of. It wasn't until after they had acted that they gained the knowledge to distinguish right from wrong.

This would be no different from executing a baby for spitting out food because you had told it not to. Anyone who would act in such a manner is insane.

Let me throw a scenario at you. It is something I read in a book, Wild At Heart (I've mentioned it several times in several threads, but only because it is such an awesome book ) with, naturally, my own interpretations thrown in.

Genesis leads us to believe that Adam was with Eve when the serpent came at her with his temptation. When God created Eve from Adam, she was the culmination of creation. She was the last thing he created before he let the laws of nature he established to take their course. When he woke up, God presented Eve. The best way to sum up Adams reaction is to say:

WOW!

She was amazing! There is no indication of the time that was spent after Eve was created. It could have been millions of years that they lived together before the events at the Tree Of Knowledge took place. As the Bible says, the wages of sin is death, and they had never sinned.

Adam, from the get go, was completely enamored with Eve. Now they were both at the Tree together, and the serpent tempted Eve. I would propose here that Adam was the first one to slip, because he stood by and observed, but said nothing as Eve took the fruit and ate. Suddenly, Adam saw that she had broken God's only law. She had eaten from the tree, and he had said nothing.

Eve then presented him with the fruit. Adam had a choice, one I'm sure many of us have faced. He could not imagine a world without Eve at this point, and was faced with this decision. Does he choose the woman he loves, or God. Adam was faced with this choice, and he chose to eat the fruit. He chose Eve over God. Then he, too, was innundated with the full knowledge of good...and evil. He suddenly knew why God had told him not to eat the fruit, and he felt dirty. As the Bible says, they both realized they were naked. He hid from God, fear suddenly being an emotion he was experiencing and unsued to, knowing he had done what God told him not to.

God came looking for him, knowing exactly what he had done. He came calling for Adam. To quote Jesus, I stand at the door and knock. Adam didn't answer until God found him (the "hunt" was giving him time to come out and confess what he had done). Then Adam tried to pin his crime of non-intervention on Eve getting him to do it.

Eve was wrong in what she had done, but Adam could have stepped in at any time and told her not to. As someone said on here, it is like a mutated nucleus. They both had full knowledge of what was right and what was wrong, and they passed it on to their children after they were cast out of the Garden, as all parents do. All parents tell their children, this is right and this is wrong, but they seek independance from mom and dad, and do what they know is wrong. Thus, a viscious cycle was begun that has lasted even to today. We all know in our hearts what is right and wrong, but many of us choose to ignore it, or even rebel against it.

Thanks, M

they did have concept of right and wrong. God put them to the test and they failed, just like everyone else did save one. Eve and Adam knew what God had said. in the day you eat of it you shall die. having a sex act didnt make them any smarter.