Freemasonry and the Tarot

Hi Mayet

The name has two meanings - one is the name of my lodge, Trinity, which is in turn named after the three church spires that my home town is famous for. The other is, of course, the Holy Trinity. It encapsulates two important things in my life. The other is my family, and with a wife and two kids I guess it's appropriate there too

Freemasonry does not allow women to study on the same levels as men, they are simply not allowed.

This is simply not true - someone has been misinforming you.

From the HFAF website:

Welcome to the official web-site of the Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons.

Who and what is HFAF?
The HFAF is a fraternity for women and organised by women. It was founded in 1913 and membership is open to women of any race or religion, who are able to profess a belief in a Supreme Being. Freemasonry is one of the world’s oldest secular fraternal societies. It is concerned with moral and spiritual values. Its members are taught its precepts by a series of ceremonies. Our Order has many Lodges throughout England and the Isle of Man, stretching from as far north as Carlisle and south to Brighton and Bournemouth and westwards in the Cotswolds. We also now have a Lodge in Gibraltar and two in Spain

In common with our fellow Masons in the United Grand Lodge of England, we believe in giving to charity.

...women are not allowed to study and learn the same material as men.

There are no rules about what you may or may not study in freemasonry. The fraternity offers a lifelong opportunity to study the Self and to engage in self-improvement using our Holy Book as the guide to all our actions. Self-study can be, and is, done by many non-freemasons - we have no monopoly on this endeavour. It is the mechanism which is different. Freemasonry for Women is no different to its male counterpart in this respect.

A woman Grand Master of the lodge, hmm don't think so.

There are some pictures of HFAF Grand Masters and Officers at www.hfaf.org...

It is sexually discrimiatory and the only way the freemasonry has been able to circumvent laws is to have itself declared as a charity. Build some old peoples homes here, a couple of private hospitals there, and it works, your outside the sexual discrimination laws. Its a business anyhows, Doesn't cost you anything, Its all donated and rolls over anyhows. (...snipped acusations of sexual discrimination)

Why is it sexual discrimination? Do you feel the same way about boys-only schools? Or the Womens Institute?

In the UK the Grand Lodge is not a charity, there is a separate organization called The Grand Charity. Since 1983 it has donated £22m to non-masonic charities. Emergency grants have also been given in time of crisis to support aid agencies - recent examples include the Tsunami, New Orleans flooding and South Asian Earthquake. All of this is funded directly from the pockets of English freemasons.

...I am a woman ... tiny one at that ... pleased to bow down to your superiority ... But Knowledge?... I have as much right to know as you do, for that matter, whats so secret about IT? why is it supposed to be a secret?

What is supposed to be a secret? There is nothing you can learn in freemasonry that you can't learn out of it. Reading the Bible is a good place to start.

what do you fear and what are you afraid of by keeping it to the select few? What do you gain? Oh well don't answer that part, its easy to see what you gain.. control for one...

What... the secret knowledge? What secret knowledge? And I shudder to think who or what it is that we are supposed to be controlling!

actually I could probably answer them but I'd really like to hear your views.

I hope you enjoyed them.

[edit on 22-12-2005 by Trinityman]

Originally posted by Mayet
Freemasonry does not allow women to study on the same levels as men, they are simply not allowed.

Women can study whatever they want. I don't see how this relates to the fact that fraternities admit only men, and sororities admit only women.

Leaves you boys completely free to be the last bastion of male dominance..

Believe it or not, Freemasonry is not the only fraternity in the world. There is a large number of male organizations, just as there are female organizations.

[edit on 22-12-2005 by Masonic Light]

Trinityman you keep directing me to offshoots of freemasonry..Not to actual freemasonry. Women cannot join Lodge and study side by side you guys, when you wander of to see a man about a dog. Its a boys club.

Very diplomatic answers but you ddint answer my questions instead as usual you worked around them and pretended otherwise.

As I will not get answers, but hey I knew that before I started prodding you there, its no use sitting on the wheel all day, makes ya dizzy in the end.

Masoonic light said it.... freemasonry is a fraternity that doesn't allow women in, instead they get directed elsewhere.

Originally posted by Mayet


Masoonic light said it.... freemasonry is a fraternity that doesn't allow women in, instead they get directed elsewhere.

But that's not what I said. I don't direct anyone anywhere. Personally, I'm not a fan of the Order of the Eastern Star.

You keep talking about Masonry as if we're trying to oppress women. In reality, this of course isn't the case. We're a male fraternity. If you want to join an all-female sorority, you have that right, and I certainly won't accuse you of sexism for doing so.

You guys won't admit it will you, or refuse to see it.

freemasonry by its very conception of male dominance and brotherhood fraternity of where no woman dares to tread or is permitted to tread suppresses women...

Originally posted by Mayet


freemasonry by its very conception of male dominance and brotherhood fraternity of where no woman dares to tread or is permitted to tread suppresses women...

I still don't get it, so perhaps you could explain it: how exactly is Masonry a form of "male dominance", and how does it "suppress women". If what you say is true, wouldn't it also mean that sororities represent "female dominance", and are in the business of suppressing men? If not, why? Wouldn't that constitute a double standard?

Originally posted by Mayet
Trinityman you keep directing me to offshoots of freemasonry..Not to actual freemasonry. Women cannot join Lodge and study side by side you guys, when you wander of to see a man about a dog. Its a boys club.

Very diplomatic answers but you ddint answer my questions instead as usual you worked around them and pretended otherwise.

As I will not get answers, but hey I knew that before I started prodding you there, its no use sitting on the wheel all day, makes ya dizzy in the end.

Masoonic light said it.... freemasonry is a fraternity that doesn't allow women in, instead they get directed elsewhere.

Mayet

You point-blank refuse to see the truth, staring at you in the face. Women Freemasonry exists. I've shown you the website, you've seen the pictures.

Mixed freemasonry exists. Co-Masonry is a world-wide movement with many thousands as members. Men and women working together as freemasons side by side. Not a Side Order. Not an appendant organization. Freemasons.

They are not regular by my definition, but they exist. What is your problem with that? Do you not believe the website? How come you are so utterly certain that they don't exist, when I present information to you that demonstrates they do.

Sheeesh!

Mayat

Some more information for you. Firstly, Wikipedia's entry on Women Freemasonry. I have pasted it in full as you have an apparant aversion to visiting my links. It explains quite nicely the differing views on Women in Freemasonry around the world.

Women in Freemasonry

The position of women within Freemasonry is complex. Traditionally, only men could be made Freemasons. While this has been slowly changing, especially over the past century, there were exceptions to the rule as early as the 18th century. Perhaps the most authoritative account of a woman being admitted to Freemasonry in these early years surrounds Elizabeth Aldworth (born St. Leger), who is reported to have viewed the proceedings of a lodge meeting held at Doneraile House, the house of her father, first Viscount Doneraile, a resident of Cork, Ireland. In the early part of the 18th century, it was customary for lodges to be regularly held in private houses. This lodge was duly warranted as number 150 on the register of the Grand Lodge of Ireland. Apparently, she removed a brick and saw the ceremony in the room beyond. After being discovered, Elizabeth's situation was discussed by the lodge, and it was decided that she should be initiated into Freemasonry. The story is supported by other accounts that record how she was a subscriber to the Irish Book of Constitutions of 1744 and that she frequently attended, wearing her Masonic regalia, entertainments that were given under Masonic auspices for the benefit of the poor and distressed. She afterwards married Mr. Richard Aldworth of Newmarket. It is also reported that when she died she was accorded the honour of a Masonic burial.

While Mrs. Aldworth's situation was a very irregular (and perhaps unique) one, the admission of women was systematized when International Co-Masonry began in France in 1882 with the initiation of Maria Deraismes into the Loge Libre Penseurs (Freethinkers Lodge), a men's Lodge under the Grande Loge Symbolique de France. In 1893, along with activist Georges Martin, Maria Deraismes oversaw the initiation of sixteen women into the first lodge in the world to have both men and women as members, creating the jurisdiction Le Droit Humain (LDH).

In the United Kingdom and France, and most other countries, women still generally join co-Masonic Lodges, such as those under LDH, or they join lodges under local jurisdictions that admit only women. In North America, it is more common for women not to become Freemasons per se, but to join an associated body with its own, separate traditions, such as the Order of the Eastern Star (OES). In the Netherlands, there is a completely separate, although allied, sorority for women, the Order of Weavers (OOW), which uses symbols from weaving rather than stonemasonry.

The GOdF and other Continental jurisdictions give full formal recognition to co-Freemasonry and women's Freemasonry. The UGLE and other Anglo jurisdictions do not formally recognize any Masonic body that accepts women, although in many countries they have an understanding and a kind of informal acceptance that such bodies are part of Freemasonry in a larger sense. The UGLE, for instance, has recognized (since 1998) two local women's jurisdictions as regular in practice, except for their inclusion of women, and has indicated that, while not formally recognized, these bodies may be regarded as part of Freemasonry. Thus, the position of women in Freemasonry is rapidly changing in the English-speaking world. While in many cases North America is following England's lead on the issue of women, the remaining resistance to women in Freemasonry is mostly concentrated there.

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

Also, here is a link to Le Droit Humain - the largest co-masonic organization in the world. I paste it here in the possibly forlorn hope that you may visit it.

Mayat

I found a history of co-masonry in Australia. Enjoy.

nope uh uh.. I have said it before... womens freemasonry may exist, co freemasonry and the eastern star to, i dont discount that.. I am talking of lodge meetings, down through time and stiill today, the scottish rite and whatever the other one is called. They do no allow women members to study side by side with men in standard normal everyday lodge. Can you imagien your grand master as a woman...

You use stuff that to say hey women can be freemasons, but they cant..

If i went down and tried to join the standard lodge here, in equal footing and area as all you men, I couldn't. You do not have women sitting beside you at oyour lodge meetings, if you are standard dyed in the grass masons. Im not talking offshots like you have mentioned above. Its men only. Actually if I remember the rules, men only of good character and standing, must believe in a superior being, intelligent design as such, not fashioable by any means but ...well... you need one or two current members to vouch for you...and and.. but the key poinst is man of good character and standing....

As a matter of fact when I asked that questionof a friend who is a mason recently his answer was, yes you can join, you can join the eastern star. You very cleverly dismiss and put sideways any attempt by any woman who mentions it, let alone asks to join. BTW I'm not one of them. Im more of a hermit, I like to be free to go my own pathways.

But it is something that has always been on my mind, why do you guys think you hold the knowledge and women cant...Any woman who joins any of your offshoots and stuff, anything with the word freemason on it does not learn the same stuff as you, or attain the same degrees or levels you do.

The learning material is derived from freemasons, but its not the same, theres much missing. They do not learn all and do not learn what you "guys" do. its a lets throw them women a bone to chew on, that will keep them busy and we can enjoy the meat and gravy......

[edit on 23-12-2005 by Mayet]

If it isn't sexism that necessitates the exclusion of women from the majority of Masonic Lodges, then what is it? Is it something embarrassing? Are you guys talking about stuff you wouldn't want women hearing you talk about? Do you just not want to tidy up the lodge? Gender exclusive clubs in this day and age are archaic and sad. As I'm sure you know, women serve the same roles as men in every aspect of American society, including military service, police and fire-fighting duties, politics, lumberjacking, etc. Spin it all you like, if you're club only admits male members it is operating under a serious bias. I don't see how the existence of other gender biased organizations makes it more justifiable.

I don't think seeing two towers in the background means that it has anything to do with 9/11....It's just two towers you're looking for something that isn't there..You could find two towers in lots of pictures and that doesn't neccasarily mean they have anything to do with 9/11...

Might as well throw in my 2 cents on the women in Freemasonry issue.

Personally it's one of the things that stops me from joining. I just don't see how you can make good men better without females being in the mix, but that is just my opinion. If it works for others, good for them.

To the Christian Mason (which its been said most are)he believes that Freemasonry kaballah tarot etc (occult)is in line with the Bible and teachings of Christ that he is the Light and the Way.

Kaballah makes no reference to Christ as Saviour as far as i have read about it is that correct?

Neither does the Tarot?

The main English authors of the Kaballah i`ve read were
1. Eliphas Levi

2. MacGregor Mathers

3. H.P. Blavatsky

4. A.E. Waite
who were all heavily into the occult

As a Christian to another i`m sure these difficulties i`m having with this are not unreasonable to you,to the non Christian i guess i am.

Personally feel free to call me an ignorant what ever because i would be the first to agree,mainly because of instruction of the Bible

Deut.18
[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

My best guess is that you believe its ok if used for good and self improvement through knowledge and not evil?or these things dont come under those categories?maybe its just something i had`nt thought of or read.

Originally posted by gps777
Kaballah makes no reference to Christ as Saviour as far as i have read about it is that correct?
Neither does the Tarot?

Why should it? It's just a (Jewish mainly) description on how the universe works. I don't recall Jesus being mentioned in Genesis. The 10 commandments also don't mention Jesus, should all good Christians avoid them also?

1. Eliphas Levi
4. A.E. Waite

For the record both of them were Christians, and Levi was a priest.

Deut.18
[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

None of that really applies IMHO. The Tarot can be used for divination, but for that matter so can many other things, the bible (Bibliomancy)* tea leaves, coffee grounds, bumps on your head, etc...

Anyway if I put my mind to it, I could describe anything using the Qabalah/Tarot. if I did that would whatever I described be evil in the eyes of God?

* An Example.

What I did:

I thought of the question, closed my eyes and opened a random page in the KJV Bible and pointed to a random verse.

Question:
Any Warnings for Christmas eve?

Answer:
Ruth 3:17 And she said, These six measures of barley gave he me; for he said to me, Go not empty unto thy mother in law.

Interpretation:
I'm single so no mother-in-law.. but I am going to my Grandmothers (My mothers M-inlaw, and frankly she also fits the mother-in-law stereotype.. think every one loves Raymond and you will be pretty close) Christmas eve. So this means not to forget to bring the batch of cookies and candy I made. (First time I ever tried this came out pretty well if I do say so myself )


third edit is the charm... I hope

[edit on 12/24/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by Mayet
nope uh uh.. I have said it before... womens freemasonry may exist, co freemasonry and the eastern star to, i dont discount that.. I am talking of lodge meetings, down through time and stiill today, the scottish rite and whatever the other one is called. They do no allow women members to study side by side with men in standard normal everyday lodge. Can you imagien your grand master as a woman...

Firstly Mayet, and this is starting to get repetitive, mixed and womens freemasonry in many cases is the SAME as male-only freemasonry. HFAF use the same ritual book as us, and if you'd visited the site for Australian Co-Masonry you would have seen that they practice the Scottish Rite. Why don't you contact them and ask them what the difference is between them and male freemasons? The link is www.australianco-masonry.netfirms.com...

You seem to be taking the attitude of someone who tries to get their daughter into a boys school and cries 'foul', despite being given the addresses of the local girls school and mixed schools. They would complain that the education they receive from these schools is not as good as the one at the boys school, but they have not made any attempt to investigate the others.

You use stuff that to say hey women can be freemasons, but they cant..

I demonstrate the proof of my words to you as best I can and you still don't believe me. "They can't be real freemasons, they're women!" Women freemasons exist, and they exist in your State.

If i went down and tried to join the standard lodge here, in equal footing and area as all you men, I couldn't. You do not have women sitting beside you at oyour lodge meetings, if you are standard dyed in the grass masons. Im not talking offshots like you have mentioned above. Its men only. Actually if I remember the rules, men only of good character and standing, must believe in a superior being, intelligent design as such, not fashioable by any means but ...well... you need one or two current members to vouch for you...and and.. but the key poinst is man of good character and standing....

You are talking about male freemasonry. Of course you can't join - you're a woman. Try visiting a female lodge, and try getting a male friend to come along with you. He won't get in... because he's a man.

You seem to think that male freemasonry is the only real freemasonry. Most male-only Grand Lodges think so, but mixed and women-only freemasonry don't agree. If you choose to believe men over women what does that say about you...?

As a matter of fact when I asked that questionof a friend who is a mason recently his answer was, yes you can join, you can join the eastern star. You very cleverly dismiss and put sideways any attempt by any woman who mentions it, let alone asks to join. BTW I'm not one of them. Im more of a hermit, I like to be free to go my own pathways.

He obviously didn't know about womens masonry. But you do now, so what's the beef? OES isn't masonry and therefore not relevent to our discussion.

But it is something that has always been on my mind, why do you guys think you hold the knowledge and women cant...Any woman who joins any of your offshoots and stuff, anything with the word freemason on it does not learn the same stuff as you, or attain the same degrees or levels you do/quote]
I refer you to the answer I gave to you previously on this same topic.

The learning material is derived from freemasons, but its not the same, theres much missing. They do not learn all and do not learn what you "guys" do. its a lets throw them women a bone to chew on, that will keep them busy and we can enjoy the meat and gravy......

Wrong. It's the same. But you would much rather carp on about sexism in freemasonry and how unequal it all is than go and find out the truth of my words.

If you're serious then contact a co-masonic lodge near you and ask them questions yourself. Please don't be one of these people who would rather complain about something than find out the truth.

Originally posted by Cicada
If it isn't sexism that necessitates the exclusion of women from the majority of Masonic Lodges, then what is it? Is it something embarrassing? Are you guys talking about stuff you wouldn't want women hearing you talk about? Do you just not want to tidy up the lodge? Gender exclusive clubs in this day and age are archaic and sad. As I'm sure you know, women serve the same roles as men in every aspect of American society, including military service, police and fire-fighting duties, politics, lumberjacking, etc. Spin it all you like, if you're club only admits male members it is operating under a serious bias. I don't see how the existence of other gender biased organizations makes it more justifiable.

Like I said before, womens freemasonry practices the same ritual as us and study the same things.

As you might be aware, freemasonry developed out of the stonemason guilds of the middle ages. In those days women did not work, and it was assumed without question that only men would build cathedrals, castles etc. Even when speculative freemasonry started in the 18th Century there was still not a level playing field and so speculative freemasonry became a fraternity. As time developed womens and mixed lodges developed, but male freemasonry is still the dominant force.

Why is it still this way today? I think single sex organizations exist as people like the company of their own sex from time to time. Personally I don't have a problem with that, but I know there are people that do. Also, please remember that freemasonry is incredibly conservative, and slow to change. If there is a strong demand for women to join freemasonry then either (a) co-masonry will grow to eclipse regular freemasonry or (b) regular freemasonry will admit women.

We should be searching for equality, not identicality, Cicada.

Originally posted by Cug
Might as well throw in my 2 cents on the women in Freemasonry issue.

Personally it's one of the things that stops me from joining. I just don't see how you can make good men better without females being in the mix, but that is just my opinion. If it works for others, good for them.

Have you considered co-masonry, cug?

I ran across this link last night and forgot about it until now.

www.luckymojo.com...

a quote from the site

C) Are Co-Masonic rites the same as American male Masonic rites?

According to Masonic historian Arthur Edward Waite, writing in "The New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry" (1922), American and British male Masons would recognize and follow Co-Masonic work with ease, for the allegories and symbols are universal throughout Freemasonry. However, in keeping with its European origin, Co-Masonry makes use of a European-style Chamber of Reflection prior to initiaiton -- which the majority of British and American male Masonic lodges do not.

Now I'm not sure about A.E. Waite be the best source of info but there you go.

Originally posted by Trinityman
Have you considered co-masonry, cug?

Like I said it's "one" of the things... another big one is the One God thing. Right now I'm wavering between no gods and a dozen gods. then you have the basically Christian morals taught.. I don't have Christian Morals, I have Thelemic Morals.. But I know of Thelemites who joined and enjoy Masonry, I just don't understand how they fit the two together.

[edit on 12/24/2005 by Cug]

Cug oh no!!! you and me both in that area my Mother in Law is exactly like Raymond's my Mrs cant even stand the show because of it

Anyway i hear what your saying tho disagree

I often read your posts when i see them to understand your point of view of the OTO from what i`ve seen from you its not vulgar to me as i`ve seen it described elsewhere from your descriptions or interpretation of it,tho it is still on the opposite side of the fence from Christianity.

If you do not believe in our God and Christ how do you think you can answer my question?

If you Cug asked a question to fellow OTO`s and got an answer from a Christian and their perspective, i suppose you would just say oh yeah i`m nuts i think i`ll become a Christian

Hitler was said to be Christian to,i dont believe that.Who knows what Hitler really thought he was tho, but you might Cug.

I had no intention of getting into a long debate and get all off topic with my question on the Bible quote to the Christian Masons,i knew i`d cope some flake from those it was`nt asked.

Anyway Have a great Christmas to ALL that means you to Cug and everyday after that brought to you by our one and only Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.