History of Conspiracy Theory 101

Heheh OK guys. You got me. Well done.

It appears that I have more reading to do, though I would still argue that most conspiracy literature of the last 80 years or so heavily relies on Webster's work; that much I will not concede.

Now then, I don't have time to write a big post right now, but, if you are interested, as this thread started out as a learning experience for me and has throughout these pages continud to be one, I would like to continue with you two, if you would indulge me.

So we have established that Robison did indeed come to the conclusion that weishaupt wanted to rule the world.

Now I would like to look at the actual history of this claim; Why he came to the conclusions he did. I'm talking Illuminati history now. The facts that prompted Robison and Barruel (not to mention Webster) to come to their conclusions.

Where I am going to start is by digging through the notes and references of the U.S. Archives link I posted on page 2. That was a fabulous article, full of factual information with no slant either way, or so it seemed to me.

Since you said yourself that the accuracy (or lack thereof) of Barruel and Robison's claims were not the issue, t would like now to examine the theories themselves, Webster's too, To determine for myself by researching the same sources if they have merit or not. I am of the impression that they do not, simply from what I have read already and the tendencies of conspiracy theory as a whole; but I nevertheless want to check it out myself and come to my own (or our own, if you will accept my invitation to participate) conclusions.

Whaddya say?

Anyone else is, of course, welcome to join in as well; but Loungerist and ConspiracyNut23 have taken an interest already (Though I don't know if it was so much in the topic, or simply the pleasure of bustin' my balls... ).

Thanks again df1 for backin' me up.

Well,Weishaupt has never really been a focus of mine so I only have a basic grasp of all the theories and how they were reached. What I know comes from when I first started looking into the Illuminati and would inadvertantly stumble across work about a group of Bavarians using the same name. I've read much more of Robison than Barruel since he struck me as more solid,but as I gather it they both reached their conclusions mainly on acquired correspondence of the Bavarian Illuminati and their experiences as Masons themselves. From what I've read of Nesta Webster she used Robison,Barruel,possibly others a few years before her,as well as some esoteric sources to reach her conclusions. I can only assume they each have a fair amount of merit since many people of intelligence and position have espoused the same things. But I couldn't really go into any kind of point-by-point depth since I've never really done any heavy research into either's work. Robison's work is the only one I've actually sat down and read at any real length but I didn't commit much of it to memory.

The so-called "Bavarian Illuminati" was more just a side issue I've occasionally looked into.

Originally posted by Loungerist
The so-called "Bavarian Illuminati" was more just a side issue I've occasionally looked into.

So-called?

"I can only assume..."

Only if you choose not to investigate!

I can only assume that means you're not interested in getting to the bottom of it; you just wanted to bust my balls. Duly noted.

Originally posted by The Axeman
So we have established that Robison did indeed come to the conclusion that weishaupt wanted to rule the world.

Now I would like to look at the actual history of this claim; Why he came to the conclusions he did. I'm talking Illuminati history now. The facts that prompted Robison and Barruel (not to mention Webster) to come to their conclusions.

Since you said yourself that the accuracy (or lack thereof) of Barruel and Robison's claims were not the issue, t would like now to examine the theories themselves, Webster's too, To determine for myself by researching the same sources if they have merit or not. I am of the impression that they do not, simply from what I have read already and the tendencies of conspiracy theory as a whole; but I nevertheless want to check it out myself and come to my own (or our own, if you will accept my invitation to participate) conclusions.

Readers keep in mine that we are talking about the Bavarian Illuminati not the Illuminati mythos. To research the Illuminati mythos would be an enormous project and beyond the scope of this humble project.

I’m very interested in this project it coincides a lot with my current interest. I’m afraid there is only one way to go about doing this and that is to find and read the original writtings of the Illuminati. Think about it... What do we have on the Bavarian Illuminati? What do we have besides speculation? All we have that is facts is the original letters and books of the Illuminati. There is no telling what we could uncover in these letters. (All three authors aforementioned studied these original documents.)

Now we cannot discount Barruel and Robison, after all they were very much contemporaries of the Illuminati and lived through it. Here is a Brief timeline of related events:

1776 Bavarian Illuminati (Perfectibilists) is founded.
1784 First edict against the Illuminati.
1785 Second edict against the Illuminati.
1786 Bavarian authorities search Zwack’s (Cato) home.
1786 Adam Weishaupt writes Apologie der Illuminaten.
1787 Bavarian authorities search Baron Bassus’s (Hannibal) home.
1787 Final edict (3rd) against the Illuminati.
1787 Bavarian government publishes Einige Originalschriften des Illuminaten Ordens.
1789 French Revolution begins.
1797 Abbé Augustin Barruél publishes Memoirs Illustrating the History of Jacobinism volume 1 and 2.
1798 Abbé Augustin Barruél publishes Memoirs Illustrating the History of Jacobinism volume 3 and 4. (the meat of the Illumianti info)
1798 John Robison publishes Proofs of a Conspiracy Against all the Religions and Governments of Europe.
1799 French Revolution ends.
1830 Adam Weishaupt dies.

Documents Needed:

1. Complete version of John Robison’s Proofs of a Conspiracy
2. Complete version of Augustin Barruél Memoirs Illustrating the History of Jacobinism
3. As much of Original Writing of the Illuminati as possible. (Barruel quotes big portions of the letters in his own book)
4. Other related articles to make us understand the Zeitgeist of the time. (Look Ma, I used Zeitgeist in a sentence!!! )

Here is what I have on the Original writing so far:

List of Illuminati documents.
freemasonry.bcy.ca... (scroll down)

List of All Illuminati documents. (German)
freimaurer.org...

And if I had 480 exta Euros and could speak German. (nice pics!)
www.wierus.com...

Loungerist I hope you will keep monitoring this thread and give your input when possible. You have already done much of the reading necessary, and I’m sure the original writing of the Illuminati would interest you.

Come on Loungerist you have to admit they're a tad sexy...
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[edit on 7/9/05 by ConspiracyNut23]

I say so called because the eventual abbreviation of the Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria to "Bavarian Illuminati" has caused alot of confusion. And as a result many people now incorrectly believe the title and concept of the Illuminati started and ended with a defunct bunch of German aristocrats.

Hmm.. I’ve just noticed we’re in the NWO forum, this has definitely turned into a Secret Society forum type thread. Maybe Axeman should start a new thread (with a more appropriate title) in the Secret Society forum…

Or maybe a Mod can use one of their SuperPowers!



[edit on 7/9/05 by ConspiracyNut23]

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
Documents Needed:

1. Complete version of John Robison’s Proofs of a Conspiracy
2. Complete version of Augustin Barruél Memoirs Illustrating the History of Jacobinism
3. As much of Original Writing of the Illuminati as possible. (Barruel quotes big portions of the letters in his own book)
4. Other related articles to make us understand the Zeitgeist of the time.
(Look Ma, I used Zeitgeist in a sentence!!!

)

You got it. I think the only way to form an honest opinion is to actually read at least a good chunk of the work yourself. And with Robison,Webster,and Barruel's work being a 500+ page book,4 volume series,and wordy trilogy respectively,that's quite a monumental task. Not to mention all the zeitwhatchamacallit.

Loungerist I hope you will keep monitoring this thread and give your input when possible. You have already done much of the reading necessary, and I’m sure the original writing of the Illuminati would interest you.

Come on Loungerist you have to admit they're a tad sexy...

Not Robison,Barruel or the letters. They were probably more interesting at the time I'm sure,but it didn't do anything for me when I read some of them. But I did find the link you gave for Nesta Webster interesting. I may check that out later.

Memoirs is 846 pages or 1250 pages depending whom you ask.

Proofs of a Conspiracy Against All the Religions and Governments of Europe is 312 pages

+ anything relating to the original zeitwhatchamacallit i can find.

Not so monumental, considering the last book I read was "Dragon goes Shopping" this morning...

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
Memoirs is 846 pages or 1250 pages depending whom you ask.

A little off topic, but I find it more than a little intersting that the one and only review of this book on Amazon is from the infamous "Dr." Solomon Tulbure...

The Illuminati Order responds, July 20, 2001

Reviewer: AuthorZone.Com Book Review "illuminati-order" (Knoxville, TN United States)

This book is a Catholic fabrication, in that it exagerates and invents many lies about our Order.

The Illuminati Manifesto which will be published sometimes in 2001/2002 will shed light on our history and our nature. For the time being visit our official website at OneWorldOrder.Org for more information about us.

Sincerely--- Dr. Solomon Tulbure--- Grandmaster--- The Illuminati Order---23

Anyway, yes, mods if you don't mind this does seem to be more of an SS thread now that it's panned out. Please move it... or don't. It really doesn't matter to me; whether this thread is destined to join all my other posts in the Secret Societies forum is in the hands of the all-powerful Moderators now.

I'm trying to get my hands on transcriptions of those Illuminati writings, but so far I've got nothing... Working on it...

The popular conspiracy mythos of the global Illuminati pulling the strings on world governments is definately no modern theme.

In the 60's the idea of this was reborn, and as the original poster pointed out as far back as the 20's the Illuminati thing was pandered around.

Suspicions of the Freemasons have been around since many hundreds of years ago, and was popularized in the early 1800's. So people on forums like these hundreds of years later spouting the same thing most likely are reading the same badly coded 1997 looking geocities tinfoil hat pages.

That said, and yes Ive red Jim Marr's "Rule By Secrecy";
there is a little bit of truth to even the more fanciful ideas.

It's a fact Bush and his father/grandfather are members of Skull N Bones,
perhaps a remnant of the Germanic Illuminati like secret orders of the early 1800's. We also see traces of this with the Bohemian Grove thing. Hitler of course was a fan of this stuff. Truman said his greatest accomplishment was becomign a 33rd degree Mason.

But I'm not sure any of this truly concludes the overall nefarious 'illuminati controlling the world governments and US' plot so many continue to espouse.
Most of this Illuminati stuff is simply the work of popular mythos.

And the FreeMason thing completely makes no sense: The entire tenet of Freemasons, at least these days is to help out the fellow man, morality plays, and charity. Thats not quite the activity of a group wanting to conspire things like 9/11 or world domiantion. Admittedly the Illuminati did infiltrate and pervert their ranks, as even Washington once wrote about this. But in 2005, I just don't see this.

Originally posted by Loungerist
incorrectly believe the title and concept of the Illuminati started and ended with a defunct bunch of German aristocrats.

Who did it start with before them??

Anyway, yes, mods if you don't mind this does seem to be more of an SS thread now that it's panned out.

Lets just grandfather it in for now and not really worry about the technicalities; we're discussing the history of various NWO type conspiracies, and we're currently moving along a line considering the illuminati in particular, perfectly in accord with staying on topic and being in the NWO forum. If it goes pear shaped, we'll move it, no worries, lets continue the fascinating discussion.

It's a fact Bush and his father/grandfather are members of Skull N Bones,
perhaps a remnant of the Germanic Illuminati like secret orders of the early 1800's

Its my understanding that SnB precedes the Bav.Il no?

We also see traces of this with the Bohemian Grove thing.

How do you see the Bavarian Grove as being related to either group, outside of the obvious link of confluence ofMembership between the BC and SnB

Hitler of course was a fan of this stuff

It should however be re-iterated that Hitler put the mason's into concentration camps and started exterminating them, and that he also outlawed the Thule Society. Thule is interseting because it seems to be something of a secret society, concerned with esotericism, but also seems to be so focused on it because it wants to promote this idea of Aryanness, and the innante superiority of germanic thought and culture, rather than an investigation into so called 'magick' and the occult for its own purpose. IOW, the motivations of a kabbalaist and a rosicurian is probably very different from the motives of the Thulites and especially Hitler. So this line is perhaps a bit of a distraction from the truth.

Admittedly the Illuminati did infiltrate and pervert their ranks, as even Washington once wrote about this.

How much is known about this? I've heard about washington having a problem with some groups of masons, But I am not clear if he's talking about Continentals or what. Also, intuitively anyway, I have a hard time seeing that the Founders would have a problem with the Illuminati, they seem to be brothers and arms, a sort of kraut Sons of Liberty in way.

loungerist ive heard of that claim before, about the germans being behind the illuminati. supposedly the illuminati is pure ss nazis and ties back to the oldest traces of german history in europe. a certain royal family is said to be of a pure aryan race.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by Loungerist
incorrectly believe the title and concept of the Illuminati started and ended with a defunct bunch of German aristocrats.

Who did it start with before them??

It started with the original Illuminati long long long ago. The thread below traces Illuminati history.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Another yet interesting side note in the quest for the Original Bavarian Illuminati paper is that some conspiracy theorists seem to confuse the Writing of the Bavarian Illuminati with the Protocols of Zion.

We know one of Weishaupt aide, Lanze was struck by lighting while traveling on horseback through the town of Ratisbon. And Illuminati documents were found on his person. Weishaupt confirms this in his Apologie der Illuminaten:

quoted from Die Illuminaten, Quellen und Text zur Aufklärungsideologie des Illuminatenordens (scroll down to footnotes on freemasonry.bcy.ca...
"When my late friend Lanz was struck by lightning at my side in the year 1785 in Regensburg, what an opportunity this could have provided me to play the penitent and remorseful hypocrite, and thus gain the confidence of my persecutors."

PS: I’m not familiar with Germany’s geography, is Ratisbon the anglicized or frencherized [sic] version of Regensburg?

And here’s an article from Illuminati-News where the papers found on Lanz are the infamous Protocols:

quoted from www.illuminati-news.com...
" All this was written down into something called the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion ", written in a way to put the blame on the Jews if the secret plan would leak.
And it did leak! An emissary for the Illuminati was struck by lightning when he rode over a field, carrying the Protocols, and they were found and revealed to the world."

Regarding The Bavarian Illuminati I have ordered several book on the subject and I hope to be able to contribute something about this soon.

Parts of the Original Writing seem to be sprinkled here and there; I hope to be able to find more.


Never mind the Ratisbon question I found the answer on the Wiki, they are indeed the same place, Ratisbon is known as Regensburg today.

[edit on 12/9/05 by ConspiracyNut23]

theres alot of evidence in certain groups of people that just need to be researched, ive come up with a list of certain organizations, as follows:

babylonian & egyptian mystery
kabbalistic mystery religions
gnositic mystery religions (hence gnosticism is like masonry)
pro islamic sorcery & alchemy
the assasin cult (group that came out of orthodox islam, splinter group. first to use mind control. believed to be the first users of espionage moles.)
the templars (zcach demolay, grand master of the demolay fraternal order, worships baphomet, pedophile. often seen as an idol to other freemasons. cursed pope before being burnt at the stake, threatening the pope about him dying a year later. the pope eventually died horribly a year later.)
the rosicrucians (some say a resurfacing of the templars. have the same secret of the templars.)
ignatius loyola and the jesuits (ignatius, spanish knight. wanted to create an army called los illumbratos, later changed the name to the society of jesus. loyola eventally got into mind control. just like the illuminati, nazis.)
operative and speculative masonry
motherlodge (at the appletree tavern, in london. most modern freemasonry comes from here.)
grand orient
illuminati ordinent
the fusion of the twin pillar currents in 19th century freemasonry

Your comments and details were extensive and provided a much needed counter view on these blogs. That of course is about all of which we can say about your view.. It is a view as opposed to pure fact.

You miss the whole point. It is not necessary to attribute all the worlds ills to the Illuminati. It is not necessary to prove that this conspiracy has caused all the worlds ills. It is enough to know that Bilderberg, Illuminati, and Masonic Rites surround Luciferian ideals and subvert Democratically elected government providence, morals, and ethics. The saddest part is that the sheeple allow this to occur. As Alex Jones comments frequently, people are more interested in praising their sport hero then the their rights being stolen away by the subverted government.

It is important to note that your views can be pointed out as skewed at best, fallacy at worst when it comes to Mr. Carr.

Link to book :
www.google.com...:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

Take your point that he blindly followed other texts on his book Pawns in the Game. A quote from the foreward of the book :

His investigations and studies of all angles of the International
Conspiracy have taken him to nearly every country in the world.

Further reading stated he did this during a 25 year span in history including both world wars which he served as a Officer on a Submarine.

This is unlikely a person copying others thoughts.

The most important quote that was written in the book 'Pawn in the Game' was a shocker even by today's standard and as prophetic as the bible...
Long quote needed... This was written in 1871!!!!!! and talks about 911 and that it sets the world afraid of Revolutionaries (their word for terrorist)..

On August 15, 1871, Pike told Mazzini that after World War Three is ended, those who aspire
to undisputed world domination will provoke the greatest social cataclysm the world has ever
known. We quote his own written words (taken from the letter catalogued in the British
Museum Library, London, Eng.) :
“We shall unleash the Nihilists and Atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm
which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of
savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend
themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of
civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with christianity, whose deistic spirits will be from that
moment without compass (direction), anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its
adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of
Lucifer brought finally out in the public view, a manifestation which will result from the general
reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of christianity and atheism, both
conquered and exterminated at the same time.”