Proof that Israel/Palestinian conflict is about religion-not land

Palestianian claims that the middle east crisis has always been about land rings hollow as Hamas statements show the true underlying reaons: Islam is intolerant of Jews.

Here is an interview that supports this

Excerpt:

"Palestinian Islamic militant group Hamas said on Saturday it would fight to drive Israel out of the West Bank and Jerusalem after the Jewish state completes its withdrawal from the occupied Gaza Strip this year."

"As for Jerusalem and the West Bank, we will seek to liberate them by resistance just as the Gaza Strip was liberated," said the spokesman, surrounded by gunmen and militants with rocket launchers."

"But militants see the first removal of settlements from land Palestinians want for a state as a victory for an armed uprising that surged after talks failed in 2000."

"Our arms removed the Zionist enemy and therefore we will not abandon our weapons and we will not hand the over to anybody," said the Hamas spokesman. He said the issue "was not up for discussion".

From the Palestinian perspective, it is their unrelenting attacks on innocent civilians, including women and children, that won them their stake in the Gaza strip. This is proof that the violence will continue until all Jews are out of "Palestinian territory". Also, this is proof why pulling out of Gaza was a bad idea.

And why do the Palestinians want all Jews out? The answer is found in the Quran:

5:51. O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

5:82. Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who , believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.

9:30. And the Jews say:. Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

I could go on as the Qur'an is repleat with this intolerant type of rhetoric. But the bottom line is that it is the intolerance of Islam that is fuel for this on-going and never ending conflict.

Religious intolerance fuels many a battle and problems through out the world. It seems pretty common for religion and politics to get so mixed together that many cannot tell what the real reason they are fighting over is. Many religions tend to preach an intolerance to other religions whether it be an obvious teaching or an implied one. Many Christians feel only they will go to heaven because of their belief that Christ is the Son of God. Thus it is implied that if you are not Christian, you will not go to heaven. Thus I do not think that Islam is all that different from any other religion on this planet. I think the problem arises when mankind allows its ego and personal adgendas to twist the real messages of most religions.

Originally posted by anniejhops
Religious intolerance fuels many a battle and problems through out the world. It seems pretty common for religion and politics to get so mixed together that many cannot tell what the real reason they are fighting over is. Many religions tend to preach an intolerance to other religions whether it be an obvious teaching or an implied one....

If this is the case, and given that the US is historically an "Christian nation", then why do we have so many people of other faiths here? What is it about this nation that welcomes migrants of all races and faiths while in Arab/Islamic nations if you're not Muslim, you are either a Dhimmi or an apostate.

Look at the history of Palestine and Israel. Why do you think the jews are there in the first place? And why are the Palestinians so intolerant of their presence? Why can't they live side-by-side and share the land. It's because of Islamic beliefs--that's why!

[edit on 20-8-2005 by Freedom_for_sum]

I understand your position but I do not believe that the original teachings of Islam teach hate. I am Christian and Christians have done some pretty awful things in the name of God as well. If you go to any book store and ask for a bible you will be directed to a wall with 100's of versions. People through time and through many avenues have come to belief things about their faith that may or may not be the original message. I think all religions suffer from this. Some would say that the Christian religious right would like to get rid of every other religion in the US and their are actually some Christians that would agree with that.

But if you take out the wars, the politics the people that are so filled with hate they cannot reason anymore and get to the average soul you will find that most people want to care for others and not harm others. All the quoting of text in the world cannot convince me that any religion teaches hate. People teach that. The situation with Israel is man against man with a hate for each other that has built through time. There may never be peace as sometimes when people can no longer see past their anger, fear and hate, there are no solutions but war and death. The middle east is not the only region of the world that suffers this.

Originally posted by anniejhops
I understand your position but I do not believe that the original teachings of Islam teach hate.

Keep in mind that the Qur'an, as it is written today, is considered by Muslims to be the literal word of God. While there are 5 translations in English that I'm aware of, they all essentially say the same things. So, if you read the Qur'an, you'll understand why Islam is becoming the highlighted problem that it is.

Well, there are Christians that believe people that perform or have aborations should die and that gays are a sin. I can't say that is a very healthy way to treat others. I understand that Islam has been twisted and probably re-written or re-interpreted to suit the agenda's of hateful minds. But I think the bible has had that done as well. I do not condone using religion as a means to justify sensless murder. Unfortunetly though it is used quite a bit to do just that. I do not see any purpose and fueling anti Islam or anti any religion. I think the problem is with people, not the books of their faith. And not all people of the same faiths see hate in their religion, many of us still see hope. It may sound sappy but for me it is like certain gun arguements. I tend to believe that guns do not kill people, but people kill people. I would have to say the same for religion. You can take any belief and make it into what you want to, if you see hate, then that is your choice and your view.

Nice thread. I've never known about those sayings in the Quran. It's a compelling arguement that Arab/Persian terrorists are influenced primarily for religious reasons. Though I am thinking that what you have done here could be done just as easy from a Muslim point of view stating that Western leaders, etc, are influenced primarily from a religious point of view and use scripture to support this. Though this did change my perspective of Islam, I am not convinced it is solely from the Quran from which these actions are spawned. US's influence in the Middle East and North Africa can be seen pre-WW2 in which countries were split siding with the Axis and Allies, neither of which are muslim.

Freedom,

You're making a vauge argument and using fallacious logic. You cannot by any stretch of the immagination assertain that Hamas is soley revolved around Quranic guidance, and not from the socio-political unrest after Palestine was not awarded it's due: a soveriegn state. This is just plain commen sense, but you have duly turned it into a reason to once again attack Islam.

Truely, if all Muslims took the Quran as the word of God, why do they not abide by it and just slaughter the lot of us?

Luxifero

Originally posted by Luxifero
Freedom,

You're making a vauge argument and using fallacious logic. You cannot by any stretch of the immagination assertain that Hamas is soley revolved around Quranic guidance, and not from the socio-political unrest after Palestine was not awarded it's due: a soveriegn state....

Truely, if all Muslims took the Quran as the word of God, why do they not abide by it and just slaughter the lot of us?

Luxifero

I'm saying the roots of this conflict are steeped in the intolerance of Islam--it has become the socio-political unrest as a result of years of fighting.

To all Muslims, the Qur'an is the word of God. That doesn't mean that all Muslims have a taste for murder and mayhem. It Might be interesting to note that to "Literalists" (those who literally follow the Qur'an, Sharia, and Hadith) moderate Muslims are apostates and should be put to death. Therefore, it is not only non-muslims who need to take heed of this growing threat, but western/moderate Muslims need to as well. Islam will have to be reformed to maintain a peacefull co-existence with other religions. Only Muslims can do that.

Its silly to say islam is intolerant. In islam, non-believers go to heaven (after a stint in something like purgatory). When the islamic caliphs ruled the east, science flourished (especialy relative to the west). And look at where the world's religious diversity is. Its not in the christian world, where the pagans were destroyed, its in the middle east, where non-beleivers weren't sought out and forcibly converted. Anyone can make any holy text support practically anything they want, the palestinians'll use the Koran to support their war, but so what? Its hardly definitive.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Keep in mind that the Qur'an, as it is written today, is considered by Muslims to be the literal word of God. While there are 5 translations in English that I'm aware of, they all essentially say the same things. So, if you read the Qur'an, you'll understand why Islam is becoming the highlighted problem that it is.

The Qur'an is, was, and forever will be the literal word of God according to musilims. There are no different versions of the original Qur'an in Arabic, they are all one and the same. Even Shian and Sunni read from the same Qur'an.

The interesting thing is that Arabic can have a series of different meanings. The Arabic of the original Qur'an did not have the consonants that bring the meaning of the words out fully. Therefore there will be a some confusion over the meaning of words. There can be esoteric meaning as well.

Arabic words are built on trilateral or quadrilateral roots from which a constellation of meanings emerge. For example the word Awliya which was mistranslated as 'friend' in 5:51 in the section you quoted above. It in fact means allies or protectors or defenders.

Other verses in the Qur'an tell Muslims to engage peaceful unbelievers with justice and kindness, and call sfor dialogue between religions and cultures. Please see 'The Koran for Dummies' by Sohaib Sultan

As for the jewish faith it also contains some equal vehement stuff against non-jews

“Just the Jews are humans, the non-Jews are no humans, but cattle” Kerithuth 6b, page
78, iebhammoth 61
“The non-Jews have been created to serve the Jews as slaves” Midrasch Talpioth 225
“Sexual intercourse with non-Jews is like sexual intercourse with animals” Kethuboth 3b
“The non-Jews have to be avoided even more than sick pigs” Orach Chalim 57, 6a
“The birth rate of non-Jews has to be suppressed massively” Zohar 11, 4b
“As you replace lost cows and donkeys, so you shall replace non-Jews” Lore Dea 377,1

This list came from a book that I am loathe to quote from but as i am currently reading it, it was close to hand.

The Christian scripture also has some pretty nasty stuff in it, which religion does not?

People will always get religion and politics confused, and most religions have scriptures that can be quoted for malign purposes.

With regards to the current Israeli/Palestinian problem I am sure that if the nation of Israel had not been created, forcing Palestinians out of the homeland we would not have the current problem with Islam that you describe. Christianity and Islam have got on ok for about the last 400 years, and probably would have continued to do so, but for the open wound in the Muslim consciousness that is the creation of the Israeli state.

If the Israelis were not bulldozing Palestinian homes and had not waged war against the surrounding Arab countries over the last 50 years the current geo-political situation would not exist, but maybe this situation is exactly what some Zionists want. Who knows? One thing is for certain if Israel had not been created there would definitely be no Israeli-Arab conflict. Simple logic hey?

If only Jews, Christians and Muslims could all realise that we worship the same God but in different ways, and that all three faiths developed from the same cultural and geographical area, we could go a step further to understanding the differences between the faiths and living in harmony. Diviersity is the spice of life is it not?


[edit on 22-8-2005 by 23spy]

23Spy;

All good points in pointing out intolerant language in the different texts. Can you explain to me why it is that today, right now, it is Muslims commiting widespread murder and waging jihad in the name of God? Why do you suppose Jews and Christians aren't kidnapping Muslims and decapitating them?

Originally posted by 23spy
If the Israelis were not bulldozing Palestinian homes and had not waged war against the surrounding Arab countries over the last 50 years the current geo-political situation would not exist, but maybe this situation is exactly what some Zionists want.

I think you need to go back and study the history surrounding the wars of 1948 and 1967. In both cases, Israel was attacked.

Originally posted by 23spy
If only Jews, Christians and Muslims could all realise that we worship the same God but in different ways, and that all three faiths developed from the same cultural and geographical area, we could go a step further to understanding the differences between the faiths and living in harmony. Diviersity is the spice of life is it not?

Great idea! Unfortunately, I think it's fantasy land. As an agnostic, I often feel as if I'm living in a three-ring circus--surrounded by religious clowns and with God acting as the ringmaster. I somehow believe this world would be much better without religion. The animal kingdom seems to get along just fine without the notion of a God or religion.

Many Muslims see themselves as being persecuted at the moment. Many of the flashpoints around the globe are are in Islamic areas; everywhere from East Timor to Bosnia. One has to be very careful not to confuse Muslims and radicals. Within all the major religions there are sects that are 'a bit out there'. I read only recently of a Jewish settler in Palestinian land that killed Christians and Muslims alike. I believe he was lynched by the crowd that surrounded (and rightly so by the sounds of it).

I also understand that in the days leading up to the announcement of the state of Israel jews within what was then Palestine were arming themselves to the teeth in order to drive the Palestinians from their own lands so it would appear that the future Israel was already waging war before it had been created in 1948. It does take two to tango though, and if I have my wires crossed I will stand corrected.

The reason why certain disaffected Muslims are killing Westerners in Iraq, the UK and the USA are numerous. These include everything from the attempted US backed coup in Iran in the 50's, western troops in their Holy Lands, possible resentment at the perceived advancement/immorality/heathenness of western culture, and in the case of the London bombings I think the bombers were just attention seekers.

To stop the 'Muslim' threat, as some might call it, would require progress on many fronts. Firstly the west needs to understand the Islamic world better. The west has a long history of completely misreading the situation in the Middle East. This would help to sort out the causes of extremism. Co-operation with Islamic states is essential.

It has not helped that the west has alienated the secular Muslim countries (Turkey excluded) while cosying up to the worst possible regimes - Saudi Arabia for example. If the west wants to bring democracy to the Middle East it must wean itself off the oil of this pseudo-barabaric state.

I do not think anyone should go around kidnapping or killing anyone, but just because some idiots do it in the name of religion, do not tar everyone else of that faith with the same brush. It is clear that the idiots who perpetrate these crimes have no faith whatsoever.

It seems terrible that no one has really learnt how to get on with each other. Israel has a terrible human rights record, and it is a democracy. The US seeks to bring democracy to the Middle East yet it commits heinous crimes in Guantanamo Bay. The average muslim in the middle east must be getting some very confused signals!

My comments about worshipping the same god was an attempt to build bridges between the different faiths and cultures. I also agree that at times the world would have been a bit better off without religion, but at the same time it has brought great things to the world. Whether religion has created more good or bad in this world is a moot point, and this is where it starts to get a little bit subjective.

I believe that everyone should be able to do whatever the heck they like as long as it does not infringe upon anyone else in a negative way whatsoever. Being Jew, Christian or Muslim is all fine by me, but when you start blowing people up you have really crossed the line

Freedom_for_sum I hope this has answered your queries with my post. maybe it would be better if there was freedom_for_all

Great post 23spy. I would like to focus on one paragraph in your post:

I do not think anyone should go around kidnapping or killing anyone, but just because some idiots do it in the name of religion, do not tar everyone else of that faith with the same brush. It is clear that the idiots who perpetrate these crimes have no faith whatsoever.

I often hear the "don't blame the whole for the actions of a tiny minority". What is it about Islam that thousands of "moderates" can riot in the streets and call for the deaths of those accused of defiling the Qur'an by an irresponsible media rag (Newsweek) while those same "moderates" sit idly by (no protests, riots etc) when so called extremists are "hijacking" their religion?

This so-called "Fatwa" issued by the supposed 500 imams, clerics, and Islamic scholars is an absolute joke and fails to address the very questions and issues in order for real Islamic reform to occur. The truth is; I don't believe "moderate" Muslims or the clerics are remotely interested in reform. Their not interested in change since admitting the need for change would be against Islam and therefore, blasphemy!!

I believe this battle will rage on for many years. In the minds of Muslims, it will become a religious war. In the minds of westerners/non-Muslims, it will be a battle against an oppressive and intolerant Ideology--irrespective of its references to God.

Question: What do you think the west's relationship with Islamic/oil producing nations would look like if we didn't need their oil? Call me extreme; but I believe the relationship would be similar to North Korea. Those countries would implode within 15 years with camels being the primary mode of transportation and living in mud huts. Once their oil is no longer needed they will have to release their gold stash which will lower the global price of gold and result in an unsustainable and short term revenue machine. Once that's gone, they got nothing. They produce nothing. They only consume.