Soldiers who complain will be sacked

"On Wednesday morning, when the ABC news show reported from Fallujah, where the division is based, the troops gave the reporters an earful. One soldier said he felt like he'd been "kicked in the guts, slapped in the face." Another demanded that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld quit.

The retaliation from Washington was swift. "

Rest of story: Here


US Soldiers who want to come home and speak out against the War are being told they'll lose their Jobs. Is this not a suppression of free speech? And don't say it's fair because they lower morale, because morale is already low, and I think the soldiers who do speak out speak on behalf of most of them by now.

Soldiers should be allowed to have their own opinions, after all they are fighting the War, the least they should get is an open ear when they feel the need to speak.

From above link

The brigade's soldiers received word this week from the Pentagon that it was extending their stay, with a vague promise to send them home by September if the security situation allows. They've been away from home since September, and this week's announcement was the third time their mission has been extended.

It was bad news for the division's 12,000 homesick soldiers, who were at the forefront of the force that overthrew Saddam Hussein's government and moved into Baghdad in early April.

These soldiers have been there almost a year now, they have families at home that miss them and need them. Don't we have more than enough troops here at home that could relieve these soldiers? I know it's still dangerous over there, but not like compared to what the soldiers over there have endured, especially at the peak of the war. It's darn hot in the summer there, sometimes 115 degrees, I think it's long overdue that they come home and replaced with "fresh" bodies. What's worse is they have been told twice that they were returning only to find out that their time has been extended, that's horrible for morale. When you tell a soldier he's coming home I can imagine the joy and how much they look forward to that date, only to be told it's not going to happen.

One message from a soldier said "Our men and women deserve to be treated like the heroes they are, not like farm animals. Our men and women deserve to see their loved ones again and deserve to come home." I agree with this soldier's plea, we have more than enough capable replacements who can relieve these soldiers who have spent almost a year in the desert. On top of that, now they're being threatened with punishment for speaking their minds, one of the many freedoms we have as Americans. I can see how morale is very low, maybe Bush and Rumsfeld should do a couple months in the 115 degree desert conditions, they'd be crying for mommy.

I have to agree with PA and Chebob here:

The soldiers that have been out there for almost a year and not seen thier own families is a bit much nowadays, the amount a armed force's that both of our countries have, there moust be enough to relieve the ones that are already out there?



blackwidow

I'd purposely complain just so I could leave.

In Baghdad, average soldiers from other Army brigades are eager to spill similar complaints."

"I'm not sure people in Washington really know what it's like here," said Corp. Todd Burchard as he stood on a street corner, sweating profusely and looking bored. "We'll keep doing our jobs as best as anyone can, but we shouldn't have to still be here in the first place."

Nearby, Pfc. Jason Ring stood next to his Humvee. "We liberated Iraq. Now the people here don't want us here, and guess what? We don't want to be here either," he said. "So why are we still here? Why don't they bring us home?"

I feel sorry for them, being punished for thinking..
They did what they were ordered to do, and now their services are paid back.. by firing them..

Shame on you Mr.Bush jr.

If people in Washington and London really knew what our guy's where going through there would be out cry and shout for them to come home. People back home have no #ing idea what the conditions are like out there.

When this war started I was in favour but it's only since I started to look deeper that I've come anti-war (anti this war anyway) All this so you can have a $ off your oil.



[Edited on 30-8-2003 by Britman]

Originally posted by maynardsthirdeye
I'd purposely complain just so I could leave.

And then have a hard time getting a job in the civilian sector courtesy of Uncle Sam.

i would say "you pay the cost to be the boss" snoop dogg. but really you sacrifice yourself for the supposed good of your country and you must trust those in office as a soldier who follows commands, thus the paradox. who can you trust in these trying times i know in the military the values training would suggest. in this respective order, god first family second country third and unit 4th.

Nice to see nothing has changed in the army. They did the same thing to us during the Clinton years, when people were pissed off about Bosnia.

Ive been saying the same thing all along: they are over there, reealize they have been lied to and sent over for no good reason, now they have lost any real belief in what they are doing, but being told to remain there anyway.

Just liek Vietnam. We shall have demoralized soldiers running amok over there, shooting at iraqi citizens because they no longer know who is a friend, who is a foe, who to trust. Once they have lost morale and belief that they are all sacrificing for a greater good and purpose, weve lost the war.

bring them home. Plain and simple. How can you expect soldiers to fight for you when they dont even believe who or what they are fighting for?

But of course, they will be silenced, as always. Grunts and cannon fodder arent supposed to speak, it might oofend some generals ear, or hurt the presidents feelings. Cant have that, can we?

Career choices and career choices.

I would like to know exactly what conditions GIs sign up for, and whether those conditions are being met by their employer during this occupation period.

All politics and mismanagement by the Bush administration aside, are there very significant breaches of the terms of employment of the occupying forces?

when you begin a career as a soldier you begin knowing you may potentially loose you file in the battlefield.

Yeah masked, bigtime breaches. They were lied to, sent over to fight a war against a threat to the United States security, and all they found were a bunch of pissed off people and proof thier govornment lied.

Bush hasnt held up his end of the contract: legitimate reason to invade in the first place.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
I would like to know exactly what conditions GIs sign up for, and whether those conditions are being met by their employer during this occupation period.

Originally posted by bigsage
when you begin a career as a soldier you begin knowing you may potentially loose you file in the battlefield.

bigsage, losing your file wouldn't be half as bad as losing your life. Seriously though, knowing you may lose your life isn't the issue here.

MA, I agree that there are no defined conditions when you enroll, but I don't think that's the point. These guys are human, not robots, they do have lives and families. My point is morale is low and after a year in the arid desert and 100+ temps, there has got to be fatigue. If they were all we had, that would be one thing. We have more than enough troops here to send in to replace these guys. Not only would it be nice for the soldiers to get a break, but how much effective are guys with "fresh" legs and high morale, ready to do their part. Again I know it's still rough over there, but let's face it, the hardest part is over.

They deserve it.

PA

Yes, I agree with you.

I somehow think this must be covered in their terms and conditions... I've not seen what a current 'Tour Of Duty' contract looks like. Are they able to be shipped off indefinitely, anywhere, to face any number of unknown military and non-military enemies... deprived of basic provisions... deprived of means of communicating with families... deprived of the right to know what the overall game plan is?

All these issues from pay to communication must be covered. I also think there must be a maximum period in a hostile (in human and environmental terms) situation like Iraq.

If not, not sure how they get any but the most desperate to enlist these days. Be thankful there is no conscription.

Yeah, morale is low, and it ought to be. This administration stinketh to high heaven.

I will have to dig up my enlistment contract. Basically, it says you swear to uphold the constitution of the US, and swear to defend the US from threats both foreign and domestic. You will obey the commander in chief, and anywhere he sends you, you will go.

Pay is not discussed at all in the contract, really, they can take your pay away for any reason at any time.

The question here is what is the higher law, the presidents wishes or the constitution? Our president is undermining the constitution, thus, is he to be obeyed anyway, or are we to stop?

And it syas we shall defend America from threats foreign and domestic......but was Iraq a threat?

You sing your life away when you join the military, true. You basically become the property of the govornment. But when the govornment you thought you served turns out to be a totally different govornment, is this false representation?

Wheres our legal experts when u need them?

I spen 20 years in the military, I retired as a SFC in 1988. Basically your A$% belongs to the military when you sign up. Getting sacked in the military means being discharged with bad papers or "General, Under Honarble Conditions" which means the rest of your life is screwed.

What your seeing, as far as low morale goes, is an accumilation of years of neglect. Poor pay, constant deployment, seperation and no money. Right now our boys, my brothers, are living in less than adequate conditions. poor food, bad leaders and the feeling that they are just throw away trash. You got 30 or 40 troops living in an open tent in 100 degree heat, water shortages, only one hot meal a day, and constant stress, sure they are going to complain, I dont blame them. You have officers and NCO's that are worried about getting their tickest punched so they can get promoted. Taking care of the troops does not mean giving them a day off on their birthday. I always insured my troops were well trained, well feed, good equipment and I led them on the ground, right next to them in the dirt. If you want to read some information about the kind of crap our boys are going through then go to:

www.Hackworth.com

This guy wrote the book on counter guerilla(sp) tactics, he is also one of the best advocates for change in the military for our troops. Some of the real bulls�$" our guys are going through can be read from the emails and letters he gets from the troops. I will say this, the site is very conservative but I wish this guy was in charge of the VA.

I read that site, I agree, he should be heading the VA, if not, be a good secretary of defense. Too many damn civilians in military affairs.

When i signed up, I knew it would be nasty sometimes. Going weeks, maybe even months without a shower. Even a hot meal isnt important. Being smelly and tired isnt important.

Its that these troops have not been properly trained to handle anything, contrary to the popular bleatings of the higher ups. More timne spent on political indoctrination and stuff, instead of learning how to deal with ambushes, terror threats, ect. Those guys and girls over there have been thrown into a friggin sand box with no clue what the hell is going on.

They dont inform the troops of anything. They leave them in the dark, and basically, when the time comes for action, they are sent in, with minimal knowldge of a situation and threats. Trainign becomes an issue more of paperwork and oudated unrealitic scenarios and standards. They seldom are prepare fpr real life situations on the battle field.

I saw alot of that crap, officers in nice, cozy, cushy surooundings in germany during field exercises, while the rest of us were soaking went, coated in mud, shivering. i remeber one field exercise where our XO, ever eager to score cool points with the general, made us go down into the nearby quarry and pull trashcans full of rocks and lay rock pathwayst to the tents so the general and higher ups wouldnt get muddy boots during an inspection. I couldnt #ing believe it. We had 5 soldiers uffering from cold injuries: frostbite, hypothermia, because they wouldnt let them wear thier artcic parkas to keep warm. They were more concerned about muddy boots.

Thats why we got our revenge later. he went into a portapotty, the XO, and we duct taped it shut while he was in, thre a cargo strap on, and got the crane out and lifted the portajohn with him in it, and carried it a few hundred yards with the crane, then set it down and tipped it. Needless to sya, he was pissed off and wanted some heads. Long story.

regardless, ti goes to show you officvers over there like to do the old paintjob on problems, covering the real issues and inadequecies of the whole thing. The welfare and training of the troops has taken a backseat to politics, illusions and other assorted crap. They have been sent there under false pretenses, only to discover that they have been lied to, and cant get the real story, nor can they act accordingly, so they are in the dark, tired, and now learn they will be there a very long time.

No showers and decent food, lack of sleep and # conditions i can handle. But not knowing why the # I am in a mess, and not being properly informed or trained to deal with the situation is inexcusable.

Skadi That is why my heart bleeds! I left with 20, and on the 8 list, I didnt want to be responsible anymore for things I couldnt improve. I sometimes wish I was in a position to change things, by change I mean making sure my guys were taken care of, knowing that I would do my best to pull them through, just dreams I guess, my heart is breaking when I see this crap!!!!!

You and me both! Now you understand part of why I left! I had pans to spenmd the rest of my life as a soldier! That was my lifes dream! But seeing how it works, the #tiness of the system and not being able to do a damn thing to really improve it, i couldnt suffer under that kind of life! No friggin way folks! It was hard to realize that my lifes dream was no longer viable, but hell, how could I deal with that # and not lose my mind and haul off and knock some polish and pressed OIC into next millinuem?

I remeber once, we had a big inspection coming, a CI inspection. We had a truck that wasd deadlined for the longest time, he had to take the engine out, we hadnt gotten the supplies we needed to fix it. Instead of admitting there is a problem, they put a coat of pain on the truck and sent us for three weeks on our tac sight mowing the grass and repainting everything. Troop morale was low. We were having supply problems, Much of our equipment broke down alot because the parts and stuff were cheap and crappy. We said this often. but nothing was done to fix common problems, replace innecessary stuff, ect.

The CI people came out, looked at the site. The general was impressed by the nice shiny coat of paint and bumper ID on the truck. Had he popped open the hood, he would have seen it had no engine, but he didnt, he saw the surface, he saw what he wanted to see. He was given and content with the illusion that the unit was in perfect working order, when we had problems out the ass that were costly and inefficent. The rest of us got told to shut the hell up, dont say anything. Dont bring the problems to reality. Just cover them up. No oen wants to step forward and say whats really going on. When I did once, i got my ass chewed, ridden, and whipped for speaking about a problem. We learn one thing: keep your mouth shut, if it looks good, dont fix it.

So the generals walk away, telling the pentagon were on top of things and ready to go, while we down in the gutter levels are mired and swamped with problems out the ass, from personnel problems to logistics, to having to deal with overpriced equipment and parts that fail, systems that could be changed and made more effeicent, and of course, oru own concern that if there was a real war to come, wed all end up dead because we werent trained what to do and how to handly things like sabotage, ambush, ect.

Everything looks great on the surface, because thats the way they want it to look. records doctored. paint thrown on. ect.

if you lift the hood of the military machine today, dont be surprised if you either dont see an engine, or see instead, a microwave or trash can that dont belong there!

Was anyone aware that during the first gulf war, there was a huge amount of methamphetamine abuse, because soldiers were working daily 20-24 hour shifts with little or no rest, and needed something to keep them awake so they could work in that nightmare heat nonstop with the whip cracking on thier backs?

You can go longer withiout food than you can without sleep.

The more I hear, the more I can compare all of this with the fall of Rome. In its heyday it took 7 years to train a Legionar, in the end officers bought their rank, over 80% of the troops were mercenaires and the regular legionar was given his pilum, gladius, scutum and sent to his cohort without training. Sound familar?