New MiG fighter makes first flight at MAKS 2005

Originally posted by CyberianHusky
Impressive I will admit. I'm a little worried at the US air inventory's lack of that kind of maneuverability. However, can it do that high speeds where it counts?

if it does, it will pretty much kill the pilot of pilots depends on the complement of the aircraft, either two seater or one. never turn with the new thrust vector at high speeds. the g-force will definitely kill them.

Originally posted by CyberianHusky
Impressive I will admit. I'm a little worried at the US air inventory's lack of that kind of maneuverability. However, can it do that high speeds where it counts?

It doesn't need that type of agility when you can take out other aircraft at BVR, which it will come down to 9 times out of 10. With the introduction of the AIM-9X and JHMQS, the Super Hornet or JSF won't need to perform wacky maneuvers. Besides, the Super Hornet has the best high alpha characteristics of any non-TVC fighter.

[edit on 20-8-2005 by Hockeyguy567]

hmmm...you sure abt the superhornet bit of info??
How much SFPG can it pull?

I guess that with all Russian planes, one thing are the specs that they announce and the reality of the plane's capabilities. Many times they have announced features that either don't work or are very limited in it's real world capabilities. The Mig 25 Mach 3.2 speed comes to mind. It could only achieved it for a few minutes and after that the engines had to be replaced. So go figure if this 3d vector thrusting will actually work in real combat or maybe the computer will malfunction locking the nozzles

"The Heritage Hornet was already the stand-out, high angle-of-attack (alpha) machine in the U.S. inventory. The E/F is far superior in that environment. The pitch pointing and lift vector placement capabilities during high angle of attack flight are truly a significant maneuvering enhancement that will intimidate any generation bogey. As of the end of July, the test program had completed the highalpha and spin programs on the Emodels for all symmetric loads, and on the F-model for fighter and centerline loadings. Lateral asymmetries and F-model stores testing are in progress."

"My last flight in the E/F was in aircraft E4, loaded with three 480gallon tanks and four MK83 bombs, and with the center of gravity ballasted to the aft limit of 31.8 percent. In that configuration, the airplane maneuvered without restriction from -30 to +50 degrees AOA, performed zero airspeed tail-slides and spins to 120 degrees per second of yaw rate, and unsuccessfully attempted to generate a stable falling-leaf departure"

www.findarticles.com...

[edit on 21-8-2005 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
Besides, the Super Hornet has the best high alpha characteristics of any non-TVC fighter.

[edit on 20-8-2005 by Hockeyguy567]

You better check the Su-27 for that.
If by alpha you mean Angle of Attack than you are mistacen the Su-27 can do better

Ps: links on their way

The SU-27 can do a higher AOA manuver, but to do it you have to disable the Alpha limiter. The Hornet can consistantly fly at -30 to +50 on the AOA, and hold manuvers at those angles. The SU-27 can pull up to about +90-110 with the alpha limiter disabled, but will rapidly stall, which is how the Cobra is done. It can consistantly fly at only about +35.

"The cobra and it's horizontal counterpart, "the hook", are performed by the pilot disabling the angle of attack (alpha) limiter on the flight control system just prior to the pitch up. The fly-by-wire FLCS normally limits the aircraft to 35 degrees alpha, but by disabling the alpha limiter, the pilot can generate up to 110 degrees alpha in the single seat aircraft, while the two seater seem to stop at around 90. Neither aircraft has vectored thrust and this is simply a demonstration of the aircraft's ability to generate a tremendous pitch rate, without changing the vector of flight."

In airshows the aircraft has demonstrated its manoeuvrability with a Cobra (Pugachev's Cobra) or dynamic deceleration - briefly sustained level flight at a 120° angle of attack.

From
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Zaphod58
It can consistantly fly at only about +35.

Do you have any links on that

The fly-by-wire FLCS normally limits the aircraft to 35 degrees

aeroweb.lucia.it...

Firstly It should be said that Flanker is normally limited to 300 alpha, although this can be manually over-ridden
www.fiddlersgreen.net...

Four-channel analogue SDU-27 fly-by-wire, with no mechanical back-up; artificial feel; relaxed longitudinal stability; no ailerons; full-span leading-edge flaps and plain inboard flaperons controlled manually for take-off and landing, computer-controlled in flight; differential/collective tailerons operate in conjunction with flaperons and rudders for pitch and roll control; flight control system limits g loading to +9 and normally limits angle of attack to 30 to 35є; angle of attack limiter can be overruled manually for certain flight manoeuvres; large door-type airbrake in top of centre-fuselage.
www.aeronautics.ru...

Originally posted by vorazechul

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
Besides, the Super Hornet has the best high alpha characteristics of any non-TVC fighter.

[edit on 20-8-2005 by Hockeyguy567]

You better check the Su-27 for that.
If by alpha you mean Angle of Attack than you are mistacen the Su-27 can do better

Ps: links on their way

Zaphod is right, thanks for posting that link, I mean to find it.

The Su-27/3x Flanker can only perform the cobra maneuver (120 deg. AoA) at an instantaneous rate. It cannot perform the maneuver with a full combat load, or a higher fuel fraction than 50%. The Flanker variants are entirely different birds when fully loaded, bringing them down to about 7.5 g's, and sustained AoA of about 33-35 degrees.

Now the Super Hornet has probably the best high alpha characterstics i've seen on any non-TVC jet, it can sustain maneuvers at 50 degrees alpha, most other aircraft can only get up to about 35 degrees.

I guess that with all Russian planes, one thing are the specs that they announce and the reality of the plane's capabilities.

That's exactly right. You'll see like with Russian missiles the R-77 (AA-12) that the range is about 90km, when the actual effective combat range is roughly 31 miles. Now there aren't many R-77's in service, and the ones that are in service are mostly in China, and a small number in India.

You'll see on some sites, that it'll state the Cobra maneuver is useful combat, not true. Anybody who thinks it useful in a dogfight is kidding themselves. However, I believe one of its original intentions was to be used to spoof pulse-doppler radar.

Actually, there is now word that Russia will be offering this aircraft, now marketed as "MiG-35" (not MFI) to India for her MRCA contract. Russia previously had offered the MiG-29M2.

This MRCA contract is really quite interesting to watch now.


Russia to field latest N-capable MiG-35 in India

Russia is to field its latest nuclear capable MiG-35 fighter against US F-16 and French Mirage 2000 in the tender to be floated for the acquisition of 125 aircraft for the Indian Air Force to replace its ageing MiG-21 fleet, a top Russian official said.

"We will offer our MiG-35 multirole fighters with thrust vectoring control along with transfer of technology for indigenous production in India," Director General and Chief Designer of Russian Aircraft Corporation (RAC) 'MiG' Alexei Fedorov said after display of its capabilities by "MiG-29OVT" at the air show in Zhukovsky.

Fedorov said it has been decided to market the MiG-29OVT with thrust vectoring control (TVC) under the MiG-35 brand.

"It has incorporated all the features of MiG-29M/M2 fighters developed on the basis of MiG-29 frontline fighter and today we can offer top-of-the-line multirole combat aircraft with in-flight refuelling," Fedorov said.

[...]

According to MiG Deputy Chief Designer Andrei Karasyov MiG-35 is capable of delivering all present and future weapons, since it has universal open architecture.

"It would take not more than 60 flights for the Indian pilots to master the new fighter with thrust vectoring," Chief Test Pilot of RAC MiG Pavel Vlasov said after displaying the capabilities of the new aircraft.

"Today new MiG fighter has the super -manoeuvrability similar to Sukhoi 30MKI," he underscored.


-------==-=-==-------


Here's a link to a video of the MiG-35/29OVT being demonstrated at Zhukovsky, from Alert6

www.alert5.com...

I have to say that, is one a sweet looking plane

-Raj

Originally posted by Seekerof
I just hope some pictures are taken and posted of this aircraft when the MAKS airshow does take place.

seekerof

Like these I took on the Friday?...













Hope you enjoy!

Excellent pics, thanks Dew.

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567


You'll see on some sites, that it'll state the Cobra maneuver is useful combat, not true. Anybody who thinks it useful in a dogfight is kidding themselves. However, I believe one of its original intentions was to be used to spoof pulse-doppler radar.

It is infact useful in combat, when an aircraft performs the stall manuever, the first aircraft chasing the aircraft in question, will not have time to react to the cobra manuever and will over fly the target, the only down side about this manuever, and why many pilots will never really use it in real combat, is that when they perform this manuever, the first aircraft will over fly, but if another aircraft gets a lock on the aircraft in question, the aircraft in question is a sitting duck and will not be able to perform evasive manuevers, so the missiles will hit and that's a kill.

hmm ,I don't know about the pulse-doppler radar bit.

Shattered OUT...

The problem is that the plane is under such restrictions when it tries to do it, that it's not practical to try it in combat. I don't think it will work on the pulse-doppler, because it would require a couple of seconds to spoof the radar, and as soon as you drop the nose and start flying again it would immediately have you on radar again. A better way to spoof it would be to fly 90 degrees off axis to the beam and have a 0 degree closing angle to the radar.

A better way to spoof it would be to fly 90 degrees off axis to the beam and have a 0 degree closing angle to the radar.

I have seen the Su-37 do that on some of the test Video's. But I bleive it can't do it with a weapon load out... nor the Cobra.

3D Thrust vectoring? Another great acheivment. How many inches shorter will the pilots be when they get out? Seriously though, impressive. I want one, now.

Um, all you have to do, is check your threat receiver, to figure out where the radar is coming from, and simply turn 90 degrees to it. If it's coming from right in front of you, you make a 90 degree turn, so it's straight out to your left or right side, and you no longer have a closing angle to it.

Pretty airplanes, to be sure, but we all have to come back to earth a moment and accept where technology is taking us:

1. UAV's with rates of turn and g-loadings that would turn humans into jellyfish make the romantic notion of dogfighting with cool "Cobra" manouevers obsolete.

2. Solid state laser technology makes manned combat aircraft of any sort a very dangerous place to be.

These things aren't coming soon, they're here, which is as big a reason as price why the U.S. is limiting Raptor purchases.