Helios Airways Crash: "Something's Amiss"

When I heard of the recent Helios Airways crash in Greece, I thought certain things sounded odd about it. Namely, if the pilots were not at their seats, then they must have had time to assess their situation had the plane actually decompressed in mid air. They would have had time to put on oxygen masks and put the plane into a dive to get to an altitude where enough oxygen was available. Yet this wasn't the case. I came across the following AP news article which mirrors my own thoughts pretty well:

"It's odd," said Terry McVenes, executive air safety chairman for the
Air Line Pilots Association, International. "It's a very rare event to even have a pressurization problem, and in general crews are very well trained to deal with it."

When the aircraft flew into Greek airspace, Greek air traffic controllers couldn't raise the pilots on the radio and fighter jets intercepted the plane, flying at 34,000 feet.

The fighter pilots saw that the airline pilot wasn't in the cockpit, the co-pilot was slumped over his seat and oxygen masks dangled, government spokesman Theodoros Roussopoulos said. He said the air force pilots also saw two people possibly trying to take control of the plane.

It is that sequence of events that puzzles aviation experts.

Warnings should go off if an airliner suddenly loses pressure, and pilots are trained to immediately put their oxygen masks on and dive to about 12,000 feet, where there's enough oxygen for people to breathe, they say.

Paul Czysz, emeritus professor of aerospace engineering at St. Louis University, questions the decompression theory because people apparently were trying to fly the plane and the co-pilot was slumped over.

"He couldn't have been unconscious for a small decompression at 34,000 feet," Czysz said. "Something's amiss."

The pilot and the co-pilot would have had far more oxygen than the passengers, who have about 15 minutes, he said.

The chief Athens coroner, though, said at least six of the victims were alive when the plane plunged into the ground. But he couldn't determine whether they were conscious.

Source: Stewart Crash May Help With Greek Crash, AP

The oxygen masks were dangling, so they must have deployed. Yet the pilots were not using them, despite remaining at a stable altitude. Could the problem have been that the masks didn't deploy on time? The coroner on the ground reported at least 6 people were alive on impact, but doesn't mention if they had been using the masks.

-koji K.

[edit on 16-8-2005 by koji_K]

Pilots masks are different. They hang from the back of the seats. They have to grab them, take the covers off, slip them on, and turn on the oxygen bottles. in 15 seconds or so.

Curioser, and curioser. The CVR came apart in the impact. I don't think I've heard of that happening before. No matter how bad the crash the black boxes ALWAYS stay together.

There's evidence leaning to the fact that there may have been some sort of takeover of the plane.

The airline gave a copy of the passenger manifest to both the government of Greece and to local authorities, but neither are releasing any information. Additionally, according to other reports, two people that were on the plane are missing.

Additionally, an associate of mine who has worked in the airline industry stated that if there was depressurization of the cabin, the windows would have been frozen over with ice, and the pilot that went to intercept the airliner would have not been able to see inside.

It is believed that they are trying to keep it quiet due to the fact that Greece relies heavily on tourism for its money.

[edit on 16-8-2005 by elderban]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Pilots masks are different. They hang from the back of the seats. They have to grab them, take the covers off, slip them on, and turn on the oxygen bottles. in 15 seconds or so.

Actually, the "old style" masks hung above and slightly behind the pilots' seats. Preflight procedures normally required the mask cover to be removed; the mask donned and system tested and left "normal" for the flight.

Modern systems, however, no longer have a "cover" as they are stored within their own container near the pilots' knees. The pilot grabs the back of the mask with one hand and depresses a button that inflates the headgear, making the O2 mask easy to don with one hand. When the mask is in place the button is released and the headgear deflates to form a tight fit, pulling the mask firmly against the face. With this system there are no switches or levers to turn on as the system is always armed for immediate use. The user, however, can selct 100% O2 if there is a need for it. These masks can be donned in only a few seconds.

Those little "Black Boxes" never tell a lie. Could it be possible that the plane hit the hillside nose first?

I doubt that it hit nose first. The debris field is too spread out. If it had dove in you would see a much smaller field and a much bigger crater. It looks like it just settled right into the ground and exploded on impact.

The fact that the F-16 pilots were not able to see the pilot of the airliner does not exclude him being in the cockpit. He could have been slumped below the view through the window. He could have fallen to the floor. He could have been pulled from the seat by someone who entered the cockpit and tried to take over the controls. There are endless possibilities.

Someone earlier made reference to the decompression of a plane causing the windows to freeze over. Could it still be possible that with the windows frozen the F-16 pilots could have still made out the silloette of those in the cockpit? Could the people who entered the cockpit have scraped the ice away in an attempt to get a view of their surroundings? Or does the ice form on the outside? Aren't the windows heated to prevent icing regardless of depressurization? I'm not knowledgeable of the mechanical workings of airliners so I'm just asking these questions to see if anyone knows the answers.

Things aren't always as they seem. There is definitely something interesting going on here. But if this was an act of terrorism, why would the Greek authorities raid the offices of the airliner and close them down as if they committed criminal acts? How could they expect the airline to go along with their cover-up all while closing them down and launching a criminal investigation into their corporation?

I also find the reports that most of the passengers and crew were frozen completely solid. If that was the case, how could 6 people have managed to survive in such an environment? If the interior was cold enough to turn everyone else into human ice cubes then you would think that the remaining 6 individuals would also experience the same freezing effects. I doubt a winter coat or a few extra layers of clothing could have made the difference.

Thanks to anyone in advance who can answer my rambling questions that I proposed as they popped into my head!

As to the "frozen solid" people, the last report I heard said at least 26 people including the copilot were still alive but unconscious at the time of impact. I think it was only 26 because it was only a few days after the crash and they hadn't done many autopsies yet.

The cockpit windows have a built in deicer that automatically functions. My understanding is that the windows would freeze initially, but if they plane flew long enough then with time they would start to thaw. The initial freezing is due to the rapid temperature loss, but once the temp stabilized between the outside and inside the windows would start to clear up. We know there was a loss of pressure because the F-16 pilots could see the oxygen masks hanging down in the cabin, so the windows must have cleared enough for them to look in. This particular airplane also had a loss of pressure during a flight last year.

Originally posted by Rasputin13
Someone earlier made reference to the decompression of a plane causing the windows to freeze over. Could it still be possible that with the windows frozen the F-16 pilots could have still made out the silloette of those in the cockpit? Could the people who entered the cockpit have scraped the ice away in an attempt to get a view of their surroundings? Or does the ice form on the outside? Aren't the windows heated to prevent icing regardless of depressurization?

The windows are not heated to prevent ice from forming, but rather, to improve their ability to withstand birdstrikes. Cold windscreens are more brittle. Keeping them relatively warm makes them more pliable. Ice prevention is an added benefit to this system.

If the window heat is turned off and depressurization occurs, moisture will condense inside the window and if the temperature of the window is below freezing, that moisture will freeze. It is likely, however, that window heat was on (a preflight requirement) and therefore there was no icing on the cockpit windows.

The only time the windscreens will ice on the outside is when the window heat is off AND icing conditions are incountered (below freezing with visible moisture such as rain, clouds, sleet etc). Generally speaking, however, the air is too dry at high altitudes to form ice.

Hope this helps.

Thought I'd post this update, apparently ALL the crew and passengers died on impact, according to the official coroner.

news.yahoo.com...

So they were alive, if not conscious, all the way down.

-koji K.