Who do you support? Israel or Palestine?

ISREAL

For one reason. I have NEVER heard of an Isreali sneking up on women and children with a bunch of explosives tied on himself and blowing them all up.

PERIOD.

P...
m...

No, but the Isrealis have had little regard for "innocent" Palestinian bystanders, who simply happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.... They've purposely pursued their target with no regard for those around the target....

Personally, I support neither side fully... BOTH have acted poorly to say the least.

However, I do believe that Isreal has made the most efforts towards peace, even so far as offering parts of their soveriegnty to the Palestinians, only to have it spat back into their faces, and a dozen or so civilians blown up by a terrorist. When faced with such idiocy, it's hard to blame them for a harsh response. The fact that they are even still willing to come to the table is far more than I would have gone for.... I would have been more of a mind to say, "Do you want to be an Isreali? No, fine, please pack....as I'm not going to let you stay here and blow up things...." Isreal's relative restraint amazes me still.....

When speaking of the Palestinians, we are talking of a people who could have had 90% of their demands met, but said no, that's not good enough. What the hell kind of diplomacy is that? No, instead, whenever they get close to peace, one or more Palestinian factions goes and blows up some women and children. Why? Simple, because they don't WANT peace!!! Hard as it is for us to understand it....they don't. They LIKE warfare, they WANT to die as Martyrs, and they don't want to live with Isrealis, they want to kill them....ALL. They don't want part of the country, they want all of Isreal to be Palestine. It is this total lack of foresight and willingness to compromise, as well as their use of terrorism as a tool, that makes me back the Isrealis moreso than the Palestinians....

Originally posted by Fry2
They would have a much easier time if the "enemy" would at least wear some form of identifiable(sp?) uniform (per the geneva convention). Problem is, they dress as civilians or as Rabbi's with bombs strapped to their chest. When was the last time a suicide bomber targetted a military vehicle? How about all these checkpoints? It's maybe 1% of the time if that.
If they wanted to just fight for freedom from repression they could have some honor and obey the rules of war. I think Arafat could afford to buy them some uniforms

.
As it is now they are attempting genocide against the Israelis. They even state so publicly.
Once again, if Israel wanted to just be rid of the problem they could in about 4 hours of bombing.
Who's the bad guy again?

lol rules of war. this is the dumbest thing i've ever heard of.

thats what the geneva convetion is. a set of rules that NOT ONE COUNTRY has abided by since their inception.
war is cold calculating and brutal, it doesnt care if your friend foe or supporter, it doesnt play favorites, everyone becomes a victim.

expecting people to wear "identafiable" clothing is unrealistic. they might as well paint a bullseye on their shirt with a "please shoot me" sign hanging around their neck.

screw israel! they deserve to be given a hard time. they make war with american weapons and palestinians have rocks and homemade bombs. are you trying to tell us these palestinians really pose a threat to their tanks??? give me a break.

i stil think america should pull all support from israel and let them fight this war on their own if they insist on doing war. after leveling the playing field they might lose their taste for such things eventually.

I didn't say have all palestinians wear a mark. Only the ones doing the fighting. How else are the israelis supposed to know the difference between a kid with a bag full of groceries vs. a kid with a bag full of c4?
Once again, this IS NOT guerrilla warfare they are targetting civilians in busses. It's terrorism in it's purest form.
The groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad only wear identifiable markings at funerals and while protesting (note the masks covering their faces). Cowards.
If they would wear the green headband while attacking Israeli troops I would have utmost respect for them. Not now.
If the Israelis were actually targetting "anybody that looks palestinian" The west bank and gaza would just be charred semi glazed bits of wasteland.

TPM- Yes, all other countries abide by "most" of the geneva convention. Especially when it comes to identifying military vs. civilian. THAT is why so many Palestinians are killed. There is no way to tell the difference. Additionally, yes the bombs they use are quite potent enough to use against a tank. They have military explosives.

expecting people to wear "identafiable" clothing is unrealistic. they might as well paint a bullseye on their shirt with a "please shoot me" sign hanging around their neck.

You mean like the IDF does.....Funny they never seem to be the targets.
I'm sorry, you can't justify deliberate targetting of unarmed civilians. It will accomplish NOTHING towards the "supposed" goal of liberation from Israel.
If there is peace (ever) it eliminates the power structure of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Asqa Martyr Brigades. They are no longer needed. Why would they work toward peace? They won't.

Originally posted by Fry2
I didn't say have all palestinians wear a mark. Only the ones doing the fighting. How else are the israelis supposed to know the difference between a kid with a bag full of groceries vs. a kid with a bag full of c4?
Once again, this IS NOT guerrilla warfare they are targetting civilians in busses. It's terrorism in it's purest form.
The groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad only wear identifiable markings at funerals and while protesting (note the masks covering their faces). Cowards.
If they would wear the green headband while attacking Israeli troops I would have utmost respect for them. Not now.
If the Israelis were actually targetting "anybody that looks palestinian" The west bank and gaza would just be charred semi glazed bits of wasteland.

TPM- Yes, all other countries abide by "most" of the geneva convention. Especially when it comes to identifying military vs. civilian. THAT is why so many Palestinians are killed. There is no way to tell the difference. Additionally, yes the bombs they use are quite potent enough to use against a tank. They have military explosives.

expecting people to wear "identafiable" clothing is unrealistic. they might as well paint a bullseye on their shirt with a "please shoot me" sign hanging around their neck.

You mean like the IDF does.....Funny they never seem to be the targets.
I'm sorry, you can't justify deliberate targetting of unarmed civilians. It will accomplish NOTHING towards the "supposed" goal of liberation from Israel.
If there is peace (ever) it eliminates the power structure of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Asqa Martyr Brigades. They are no longer needed. Why would they work toward peace? They won't.

neither side wants peace at THIS point, they just want to wipe the other side from the face of the planet. dont you get that yet?

BOTH side deliberately target innocents...i am reminded of an incident mentioned in another thread where an israeli helicopter shot a missle at a car in a TRAFFIC JAM trying to kill one terrorist leader who got away but one innocent person was killed and 26 more injured.

please. we can both come up with these examples all day long. however i wouldnt say israel is showing restraint with such actions (sorry gazrok but this isnt what i call restraint, i call this being over zealous)

but you see the israeli army has a choice as they have the equipment and means to go after those who attack them but feel its easier to use dolldozers backed up with tanks which obviously shows....the targetting of "innocent" people!

neither side is innocent.

I didn't say Israel was innocent. I said they have the higher moral ground.
What does blowing up a busload of civilians accomplish toward the stated goals of the terrorists? None.

What does shooting a missile at a car with a known terrorist inside it accomplish? 1 or more less enemy(s) with the unfortunate loss of some civilians.

The intentional targetting is where I have the problem.
Read my earlier posts in this thread.

And to this:

neither side wants peace at THIS point, they just want to wipe the other side from the face of the planet. dont you get that yet?

If that were the case (for the third time) We would not be having this conversation as the israelis have the means to "wipe out" the other side in just one night.

I understand supporting the underdog and all but I don't support cheaters. (As if this were a game or something)

please. we can both come up with these examples all day long. however i wouldnt say israel is showing restraint with such actions (sorry gazrok but this isnt what i call restraint, i call this being over zealous

No, the restraint is that they haven't engaged in forceably kicking them all out, and their repeated efforts at peace talks, despite the fact that they could systematically take out every single leader of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. if they wanted to....at any time. Trust me, Mossad knows where each one of them is at any given moment.... This is the restraint I speak of....not such incidents as the rocketting of a car in a traffic jam (which of course, shows that they know where these guys are)....

Originally posted by Fry2
I didn't say Israel was innocent. I said they have the higher moral ground.
What does blowing up a busload of civilians accomplish toward the stated goals of the terrorists? None.

What does shooting a missile at a car with a known terrorist inside it accomplish? 1 or more less enemy(s) with the unfortunate loss of some civilians.

The intentional targetting is where I have the problem.
Read my earlier posts in this thread.

higher moral ground????

lol dont make me laugh!

as soon as they did the very thing they condemn the palestinians for doing they lost ALL moral highground. period.

neither side has ANY moral highground because neither have any morals at this point.

period.

So I take it the Israeli's should just write off the civilian losses as part of life. Do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to defend their population and wait to be "pushed into the sea".

I understand completely now

Originally posted by Fry2
They would have a much easier time if the "enemy" would at least wear some form of identifiable(sp?) uniform (per the geneva convention). Problem is, they dress as civilians or as Rabbi's with bombs strapped to their chest. When was the last time a suicide bomber targetted a military vehicle? How about all these checkpoints? It's maybe 1% of the time if that.
If they wanted to just fight for freedom from repression they could have some honor and obey the rules of war. I think Arafat could afford to buy them some uniforms

.
As it is now they are attempting genocide against the Israelis. They even state so publicly.
Once again, if Israel wanted to just be rid of the problem they could in about 4 hours of bombing.
Who's the bad guy again?

during the revolutionary war the american minutemen rarely wore any identifiable uniforms and they purged those that were loyal to the crown, who were more or less ordinary people who did not want to have anything to do with the war.

Also, wearing some kind of unifrom would morally be good but if that happens they will be the target for every available Israeli soldier, when your wearing street clothes enemy soldiers have to or should be cautious as to accidently shooting at civilians (Although that has never stopped them before) so there would be fewer losses of the freedom fighters.

[Edited on 29-8-2003 by SilverDeath]

I support neither but then again I support both.

Originally posted by Gazrok

ISREAL

For one reason. I have NEVER heard of an Isreali sneking up on women and children with a bunch of explosives tied on himself and blowing them all up.

PERIOD.

P...
m...

No, but the Isrealis have had little regard for "innocent" Palestinian bystanders, who simply happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.... They've purposely pursued their target with no regard for those around the target....

Personally, I support neither side fully... BOTH have acted poorly to say the least.

However, I do believe that Isreal has made the most efforts towards peace, even so far as offering parts of their soveriegnty to the Palestinians, only to have it spat back into their faces, and a dozen or so civilians blown up by a terrorist. When faced with such idiocy, it's hard to blame them for a harsh response. The fact that they are even still willing to come to the table is far more than I would have gone for.... I would have been more of a mind to say, "Do you want to be an Isreali? No, fine, please pack....as I'm not going to let you stay here and blow up things...." Isreal's relative restraint amazes me still.....

When speaking of the Palestinians, we are talking of a people who could have had 90% of their demands met, but said no, that's not good enough. What the hell kind of diplomacy is that? No, instead, whenever they get close to peace, one or more Palestinian factions goes and blows up some women and children. Why? Simple, because they don't WANT peace!!! Hard as it is for us to understand it....they don't. They LIKE warfare, they WANT to die as Martyrs, and they don't want to live with Isrealis, they want to kill them....ALL. They don't want part of the country, they want all of Isreal to be Palestine. It is this total lack of foresight and willingness to compromise, as well as their use of terrorism as a tool, that makes me back the Isrealis moreso than the Palestinians....

That's kind of...stupid for a lack of words. They want peace and they would not kill themselves if they didn't have to. They are merely mislead and have a overwhelming hatred of their jewish occupayers since well they kill civilians, destroyed homes, shops etc...etc..

NO, they don't want peace. I don't mean the Palestinians in general but the radical groups.
What will Hamas do if there is peace? How about Islamic Jihad?
They don't want peace, they want the destruction of Israel and the death of all jews.
Peace will serve no purpose for these groups, except to remove their power base and financing. Peace would be self destructive to the militant groups.

i m support the palestine they just a simple society like us,but to a jews they are fight for the cause of their own prototype vision of messiah and they waste a lot of their own people in most of the suicide bomber attack
dont they (israel) feel they lost a lot of people in everyday in daily attack or they just simply deny of it

Hello there

Someone has said that Israeles dont kill civilians, well my friend you are totaly WRONG!!

I think the biggest weapon that the Israeles have is The Media, because they can kill civilians and just say to the world "Ooops I didnt see him, we are sorry etc etc Please forgive us etc etc..."

Now, please dont forget that Palestinian people are smart people and are very educated, and the people that do most of these "Terrorist" bombings and targeting civilians are Uni students.
Why would a person that has a future ahead of him/her strap C4 or whatever they use.. to target Israele buses and civilians??? (Please dont say Jihad as your answer)

Anyway for the Question, I support Palestine all the way!!

Thanks

Guerilla

As someone asked earlier, if the so called "poor innocent palestinians" wanted to be liberated, then why don't they attack military targets? I have been watching the news in depth for a long time and have heard about three attacks on military points. Let's see, several years, thousands of attacks, three against military points. Yeah, they really want to be liberated from the oppressive military of Isreal.

Israel didn't steal land from Palestinians, for Palestinians never existed until Israel was created. Before then Egypt/Jordan/Syria owned the land. Never heard of Palestinians killing Syria civilians because Palestinians didn't exist then.

Third, why the hell should a country the size of New Jersey give up land? Why not a country like Saudi Arabia with a shiznick load of land give some up? Why Not Iran? They have alot more land than Israel, yet Israel is suppose to give up land. BS!

Fourth, I support the good guys. I don't support people who kill babies and little kids on purpose, I support people who kill terrorists, not people who kill a few teens dancing at a Jazz Club. I support people who's government is trying to end the deaths by talking and negotiating peace plans, not the government who supports terrorist bombings and always ends the peace talks. Like the roadmap, Israel was going to give several villages away, but then Jihad/Hamas kills off civilians, so Israel stops the giving of the villages.

What number am I on? Fifth? Ok, I also support Israel for they haven't done what they could do. They like the US in a way, in the way that US could take out Mexico and end the problems we have with them, but the US doesn't. Israel could go out and take over the middle east, but they don't. They just want the death and estruction to stop.

Sixth, part of the roadmap plan was that Palestinians wanted Israel to realise(sp?) terrorists that were captured. Let's see here, Israel doesn't realise terrorists, the bombings will continue. Yeah, that's a great plan.

Seventh, for all the ones who go poor palestinians have nothing. YES THEY DO! Several tons of c4, several tons of TNT/Dynomite, and a shiznick load of weapons. Where do you think the terrorists who go into a grocery store and shoot a bunch of people get their guns from? They have weapons, missle launchers, machine guns, semi auto guns, rifles, anti tank guns, explosives, hell, if all that meant Vietnam had an army, then so do the Palestinians.

Eigth, what land do they deserve? They never had land to begin with. There never was a Palestine for the Jews to steal, so no land stolen. Can't steal land from the Haberabes, for no Haberia ever existed. And again with the land, why not Saudi Arabia give them some land? They hav so much of it, while Israel has so little, why should Israel give up land?

....because it really doesn't have anything to do with me,anyone who is not involved is concerned only because the TV feeds them more info than they need about world events which have no real effect on them ,but to disturb them with gory pictures and pleading stories of those who are effected by it.
I don't care.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Eigth, what land do they deserve? They never had land to begin with

I don't understand this argument from some of you. Israel didn't have land to begin with either, it wasn't created until 1948, so if you can say Palestine had no land to begin with, you will have to say the same about the nation of Israel.

i dont support hate of any form or fashion, feeding others and not their own families with love. something greater then we expect is going on here, can we say human sacrifice any one.

I suport palestinian cause, state of Palestina in West Bank and Gaza, though I might not agree with methods some of them use to achieve that goal.

To all claiming Palestina never existed, there is something else to consider here: people who live there HAVE existed, they OWNED land which was taken from them simply because a Jew from other land decided that he must Return to a land which creation was based on a 2000-3000 year old story. The land was taken away from rightful owners to give it to this "settler". And the owner became a refugee living in a tent next to what used to be "his land". Wether you call it Palestine, Syria, Israel, it was HIS, now its not anymore.