Three Masons = Telepathic Triad?

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Now of course, I'm not calling them liars, I'm just saying that LOGICALLY they cannot expect their words to have weight when the question is, "Can they communicate in this strange fashion?" Get it? The question itself, precludes any Mason from really answering it, because if it were true, they'd be exposing a major element of their club.

Yes, you can expect masons to tell the truth because, generally, masons don't LIE about Freemasonry. Haven't you noticed by now that if there's something that we still keep secret being discussed, we just don't say anything at all?!? When giving answers to questions, our answers have been incredibly consistent, haven't they? We keep our mouths shut about many things discussed here on ATS, but we don't straight up LIE and DECEIVE.

Also, it has been claimed MANY times that masons can't be trusted to tell the truth about the organization. That's B.S. because if you can't trust masons to tell you, who CAN you trust? Anti-masons, biased groups with an agenda against Freemasonry? Freemason's answers have been completely consistent across all subjects of speculation, yet you think we would lie to protect our fraternity? That's a pile of crap.

No Freemason is told to, much less sworn, to LIE and DECEIVE people about the fraternity. That is yet another myth created by anti-masons, and gullible people like you fall for it like suckers. If you are investigating an organization, dismissing the accounts of its members would be your biggest, most ignorant mistake.

[edit on 14-8-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Now of course, Solly was a madman, but I had never read this anywhere else...

...If it's only Solly who claimed this, I guess it's suspect, but I thought it was an interesting idea.

He was definitely nuts, but sometimes that can mask some interesting truths. Not sure in this case, so I ask...

I'm not saying this is true, I'm mentioning it and asking if we can determine if there are any other sources for this idea...

As mentioned in my first post, I don't want to bash Masons in this thread. I find them curious and somewhat well-meaning, but not overtly dangerous.

Actually, I am quite happy to hear that Solly was just nuts and he made this up, if that's the way it turns out. No problem if so. I just thought it was interesting and wanted to run it by the group.

You understand also, of course, that Masonic comments on this thread mean very little to me...

...Why don't you just stop posting to it and let it settle.

But no, I'm not too sure I believe Masons who say that Solomon Tulbure is lying. Do you know why? Because one would expect them to lie about something like this.

Now of course, I'm not calling them liars...

But you just called them liars...

Sounds to me like you really aren't interested in information on the topic, byt hey, that's just me.

OK, let's just "let it settle"...

Originally posted by smallpeeps
I was reading through the late Solomon Tulbure's book "The Illuminati Manifesto" where he says that the origin of the modern day Illuminatic Masons was when some realized they could communicate telepathically, and most powerfully in groups of three. He says that this secret telepathic triad structure was then placed into lodges and congregations where these telepathic triads would then covertly direct the group and also Freemasonry.

Now of course, Solly was a madman, but I had never read this anywhere else. Has this ever been alluded to in any literature? Has anyone heard of telepathic traids in any secret organization? Can anyone describe how a triad is more effective?

If it's only Solly who claimed this, I guess it's suspect, but I thought it was an interesting idea.

When I read this, I knew that it sounded vaguely familiar, but couldn't remember where I'd heard it before. After digging through my bookshelves I finally found it.

On page 227 of " The Tutankhamun Prophecies'' by Maurice Cotterell, there is a section entitled " How Masons Read Minds", complete with diagrams.

Personally I found the book entertaining, but in my opinion it seems to be another example of an author taking 1 plus 1 and making it equal 5, however if you're so inclined, buy the book and judge for yourself ( Barnes and Noble $ 20.00 as I recall )

Here's a review if you're interested

www.grandlodgescotland.com...

When I read this, I knew that it sounded vaguely familiar, but couldn't remember where I'd heard it before. After digging through my bookshelves I finally found it.

On page 227 of " The Tutankhamun Prophecies'' by Maurice Cotterell, there is a section entitled " How Masons Read Minds", complete with diagrams.

Personally I found the book entertaining, but in my opinion it seems to be another example of an author taking 1 plus 1 and making it equal 5, however if you're so inclined, buy the book and judge for yourself ( Barnes and Noble $ 20.00 as I recall )

Excellent! If nothing else, we can trace this idea to where Solomon got it. Here's the book on Amazon:

The Tutankhamun Prophecies

...Looks like I can get a used copy for five bucks. I will update this thread with any info I find.

Originally posted by smallpeeps


But no, I'm not too sure I believe Masons who say that Solomon Tulbure is lying. Do you know why? Because one would expect them to lie about something like this.

I'm not quite sure I understand your position, but I haven't read the Tulbure book (nor have I ever heard of him).

Is it Tulbure's position that initiation into a fraternity itself bestows some sort of psychic power, or is it something else?

You have to understand that to those of us who are actually Masons, this sort of stuff is ludicrous. Masons aren't telepathic psychics or shapeshifting reptilians, we're regular people who happen to belong to a regular fraternity. Masons go to the Lodge a couple of times per month, have a meeting, eat dinner, then have cigars and coffee over conversation. It completely boggles my mind as to where some people come up with all this other stuff.

from: www.grandlodgescotland.com...

The penultimate part of the Chapter is sub-headed: "From Ceremony to Free Flight: The Secret Weapon of the Masons… The last part is sub-headed: "How Masons Read Minds". I shall quote, at length, from the former (pp 226-7)

"Only the Thirty-Third Degree masons are true Freemasons and, like the Mahatmas of India, super-human. Like the Rosicrucians, with their 'Casting of the Molten Sea', 'The Making of the Rose Diamond' and 'The Achieving of the Philosopher's Stone', they are capable of out-of-body experiences. The method of Thirty-Third Degree Freemasons in scaling these heights is through what they call 'the cable tow', a mythical silver thread that, with practice, extends from the navel. The journeying soul can leave the body providing the higher intellect holds this umbilical cord tight, to provide a return to the body. The practice is dangerous, as breakage of the cable tow precludes return to the body, and this is the ultimate reason for the secrecy of the Thirty-Third Degree Masons and is referred to in the Bible:'… man goeth to his long home, and mourners go about the streets: or ever the silver cord [cable tow] be loosed or the golden bowl [halo] be broken… then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it' (Ecclesiastes, xii, 5-7)".

The second part does NOT explain "How Masons Read Minds" but rather how an individual might read the mind of another.

The whole Chapter on Freemasonry is so riddled with errors, and very strange ideas, that there is no substantive link between this Chapter and the rest of the book. I can conclude only that this Chapter was included for the sole reason that the word 'Freemason' could be placed on the front cover.

But don't take his word for it... He's a Mason.

[edit on 8/15/05 by The Axeman]

Is it Tulbure's position that initiation into a fraternity itself bestows some sort of psychic power, or is it something else?

You have to understand that to those of us who are actually Masons, this sort of stuff is ludicrous. Masons aren't telepathic psychics or shapeshifting reptilians, we're regular people who happen to belong to a regular fraternity. Masons go to the Lodge a couple of times per month, have a meeting, eat dinner, then have cigars and coffee over conversation. It completely boggles my mind as to where some people come up with all this other stuff.

MasonicLight, let me offer my respect to you first, because I have enjoyed your posts and you are a compliment to your brotherhood.

My position is this: There are things in the world that people don't understand. We should be free to ask about these questions (even the stupid ones) without massive interference.

To clarify, Tulbure claimed he was a telepath and that the skill was known to "Illuminati-Masons". Yes, that would be the secret evil-Masons that you guys say don't exist and which other conspiracy people refer to (and lump you in with) all the time. Personally I am 90% certain such Masons do not exist, but it is an interesting thought, although obviously offensive to Masons.

Now perhaps these Masons who hate this thread are just upset about the constant association with the evil-Masons of conspiratorial invention. Fine, I can see that. In this particular thread, however, every Mason must realize by the very nature of the question that they are precluded from answering. If some Mason on ATS (whose authority I wouldn't know how to verify) says this idea is untrue, that's not going to settle the matter for people on a conspiracy website. You must know this. Also, I am not attacking anyone

Am I to understand that all Masons demand that they be believed when they say something? If so many of them have been politicians, then this expectation is not based in reality. Why isn't it okay for people to disbelieve you when you say something? I mean, if another secret society member like a Jesuit or a Roscrucian has a non-abusive thread like this posted regarding their club, would they react as some have done here, with bluster and indignation? Perhaps they would.

Yes, I am willing to consider that your club may have some folks who possess paranormal skills which you do not know about. Is it okay if I inquire about this idea, even if I only read it in a book written by a schitzophrenic loon? I do understand that it's difficult for Masons to tolerate ignorant dolts like me. The problem is, everyone who's not a Mason is naturally going to be an ignorant dolt of the same fashion. Not being Masons, how could we be anything else?



[edit on 15-8-2005 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by smallpeeps

When I read this, I knew that it sounded vaguely familiar, but couldn't remember where I'd heard it before. After digging through my bookshelves I finally found it.

On page 227 of " The Tutankhamun Prophecies'' by Maurice Cotterell, there is a section entitled " How Masons Read Minds", complete with diagrams.

Personally I found the book entertaining, but in my opinion it seems to be another example of an author taking 1 plus 1 and making it equal 5, however if you're so inclined, buy the book and judge for yourself ( Barnes and Noble $ 20.00 as I recall )

Excellent! If nothing else, we can trace this idea to where Solomon got it. Here's the book on Amazon:

The Tutankhamun Prophecies

...Looks like I can get a used copy for five bucks. I will update this thread with any info I find.

Just so I'm up front about this, I'm a Mason, and I make no apologies about it.

But if you are seeking the Truth, then I believe that my obligation is to provide you with any information that I have that helps to make a rational decision about Freemasonry, and then to trust in the common sense that we have been blessed with by our Creator to see the truth.

When the Light of truth is switched on, the cockroaches of ignorance scurry for cover.

Seek Knowledge of Freemasonry with an open mind, and an open heart, and make your own decision.

That's all any of us ask.

(And five bucks is about right for this " knowledge ").

Originally posted by smallpeeps

MasonicLight, let me offer my respect to you first, because I have enjoyed your posts and you are a compliment to your brotherhood.

Thank you very much for those kind words, they are indeed appreciated.

My position is this: There are things in the world that people don't understand. We should be free to ask about these questions (even the stupid ones) without massive interference.

I completely agree.

To clarify, Tulbure claimed he was a telepath and that the skill was known to "Illuminati-Masons". Yes, that would be the secret evil-Masons that you guys say don't exist and which other conspiracy people refer to (and lump you in with) all the time. Personally I am 90% certain such Masons do not exist, but it is an interesting thought, although obviously offensive to Masons.

I do not deny the existence of Illuminati Masons; I only deny the charge that they were evil, or possessed supernatural powers. For example, Adam Weishaupt, Baron Von Knigge, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Johannes Von Goethe, and several other famous names were members of both the Masons and the Illuminati. What is rather ironic is that the basis of the Illuminati (and to a lesser extent, Masonry) was the concept of rationalism, supplanted by a type of Deism that itself reflected the Enlightenment ideas, and rejected supernatural claims as superstition.

Whether or not the Illuminati was "evil" was a matter of personal opinion. They were revolutionary liberals, like the US forefathers, and certainly the ultra-conservative church-state union of western Europe considered them evil. But the Illuminati never claimed strange paranormal powers, and the rationalists who founded that organization would certainly had scoffed at anyone who made a claim to possess such powers.

In this particular thread, however, every Mason must realize by the very nature of the question that they are precluded from answering.

This statement puzzles me. If the claim that Masons are secretly telepathic is true, who else would be able to answer the question except a Mason (or at least a former Mason)?

If some Mason on ATS (whose authority I wouldn't know how to verify) says this idea is untrue, that's not going to settle the matter for people on a conspiracy website. You must know this.

I do indeed. Many conspiracy theorists are so wrapped up in their dogmas that no amount of evidence to the contrary would ever make them admit they were wrong. But the conspiracy theorists are a fringe element; most people rely on the facts that can be ascertained. In this case, there is no evidence that telepathy exists, much less that fraternity brothers communicate by it.

Please note that I'm not saying that telepathy doesn't exist, only that there is no evidence to support it. Personally, I believe that everyone, including many non-human animals, have some sort of psychic ability that has not yet been discovered by natural science, and that a type of subconscious telepathy may play a part in this ability. I do not believe, however, that such telepathy, if it does exist, is used consciously, and is instead usually misdiagnosed as "instinct".

Why isn't it okay for people to disbelieve you when you say something?

It's certainly ok to disbelieve anything, or to believe anything, as long as nobody gets hurt. But it also seems to me that it is a duty to correct error, just as it is a duty to accept correction for our own errors. And dispersing error is the beginning, not the end, of the the path of wisdom.

I mean, if another secret society member like a Jesuit or a Roscrucian has a non-abusive thread like this posted regarding their club, would they react as some have done here, with bluster and indignation? Perhaps they would.

Perhaps. Personally, I didn't see anything you wrote that was offensive, I just thought the concept was sort of weird.

The problem is, everyone who's not a Mason is naturally going to be an ignorant dolt of the same fashion. Not being Masons, how could we be anything else?

It's certainly not necessary to be a Mason in order to deny ignorance. Masonic principles are certainly based on a strong foundation, but these principles are the same as all the other great philosophies which teach truth.

However, when it comes to actual "Lodge life", it takes a Mason to answer the question, simply because he knows it first-hand, from his own experience. In like manner, I wouldn't presume to know more about Rotary than a lifelong Rotarian, or ask questions about the Lions Club while barring Lions from answering.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by Masonic Light]

Masonic_Light said: I do not deny the existence of Illuminati Masons; I only deny the charge that they were evil, or possessed supernatural powers. For example, Adam Weishaupt, Baron Von Knigge, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Johannes Von Goethe, and several other famous names were members of both the Masons and the Illuminati. What is rather ironic is that the basis of the Illuminati (and to a lesser extent, Masonry) was the concept of rationalism, supplanted by a type of Deism that itself reflected the Enlightenment ideas, and rejected supernatural claims as superstition.

Once again, ML, you have made me think. Thanks for this information. I admit to much ignorance of Masonic history, except from the history as reported by that most connected of Masons, David Icke.

Wikpedia says this about "Deism":

The classical view of an impersonal and abstract God has caused many to claim that deism is "cold" and amounts to atheism. Deists maintain that the opposite is true and that this view leads to a feeling of awe and reverence based on the fact that personal growth and a constant search for knowledge is required. This knowledge can be acquired from many sources including historical and modern interpretations found in the many varied fields of science (biology, physics, etc.) and philosophy. While many religions have an adversarial opposition to modern views such as those found in science, this is not an issue for deism -- as reconcilation and unification are desired.

So regardless of being a Mason or an Illuminatist (which amounts only to a slight difference in their view of God, if I read you correctly), an initiate or a master must have a constant growth. That means mental growth and abilities, right?

Is quiet meditation permitted to Masons? If so, it may be the case that a Mason may astrally project or otherwise experience something which, like Plato's cave, cannot be described to others. His brethren might not be able to grasp it.

Also, in such a case, it's not unthinkable that some Masons may secretly covet mental abilities. I say this also in my understanding that there is a pecking-order in Masonry and it is pyramid-like in its form in that there are few at the top teirs and lots at the bottom levels. Is this an accurate image? Isn't there possibly some competition between Masons and jockeying for position, internally?

If some small group of Masons could expand the power of their mind, they could subsume the structure of their lodge and perhaps engage in espionage or otherwise keep their psi-abilities secret.

Have you read "Psychic Warrior"? That's an awesome book written in 1994 (as I recall) about how psi abilities are being studied by the US and how crude and limited our view of the mind has been for the last few thousand years.

I wonder: Have Masons always been so ignorant of the advanced powers of the mind? I'd have to say no, that is very unlikely.

More Wikipedia:

The words deism and theism are closely related and this sometimes leads to controversy. The root of the word "deism" is from the Latin deus, while the root of the word theism comes from the Greek theos, both meaning god in English. However, theism can include faith or revelation as a basis for belief, while deism includes only belief which can be substantiated through reason.

I am not sure how to understand your description of the difference between Illuminatist Masons (which, heretofore, I hadn't heard any Mason speak of) and other Masons. It says here that both Theism and Deism mean the same thing: "God"

Unless you assume that the mental schema or experience of each Mason will be identical through out their life of prayer, you cannot assume that some Masons won't develop certain mental skills, right? If a Mason developed a skill that could not be explained to his fellow deist, wouldn't he rather, keep it hidden as opposed to trying to explain it to his brothers?

Perhaps I need a primer on the difference between theism and deism. Fire away if you've got the time to type it.

Back to your post:

Masonic_Light said: Whether or not the Illuminati was "evil" was a matter of personal opinion. They were revolutionary liberals, like the US forefathers, and certainly the ultra-conservative church-state union of western Europe considered them evil. But the Illuminati never claimed strange paranormal powers, and the rationalists who founded that organization would certainly had scoffed at anyone who made a claim to possess such powers.

Revolutionary liberals who all believed in God? Do Masons admit atheists?

The Illuminati never claimed those powers, but what does absence of proof mean? Weren't they able to exist as a shadow within Masonic lodges?

My next question would be: Does the Mason initiate know what you have posted here? Would it affect them to know these things?

Originally posted by smallpeeps

So regardless of being a Mason or an Illuminatist (which amounts only to a slight difference in their view of God, if I read you correctly), an initiate or a master must have a constant growth. That means mental growth and abilities, right?

The concept of God in Masonry, or even in the old Bavarian Illuminati, may be vied as "deistic" in the sense that it was not dogmatized, and personal opinions were left to the individual. Thus in Masonry, as in the Illuminati, members often differed greatly in their views toward God.

In the Illuminati, Von Knigge (who was Weishaupt's deputy) was a devout Lutheran, while Weishaupt himself was a Deist. In Masonry, Benjamin Franklin and Voltaire were Deists, while Charles Wesley was a Methodist, and George W. Truett was the founder of the Southern Baptist Convention.

But, at least from a historical perspective, Masonic Lodges and Illuminati Chapters provided a place for Deists and rationalists to meet that was not controlled by the Church. Deism is not as popular today as it once was, but from my personal studies I have concluded that Deism was an important factor in the establishment of the so-called "secret societies", i.e., many were secret because Deism and/or universalism was considered heretical, and those possessing heretical views could be imprisoned, tortured, and/or executed.

Is quiet meditation permitted to Masons?

Masons can do anything they want, provided they do not violate the moral law, which would be a breach of Masonic law. The term "moral law" is sort of vague, but Masons found guilty of felonies and some misdemeanors are automatically expelled, while other less serious violations are handled on a case-by-case basis.

If so, it may be the case that a Mason may astrally project or otherwise experience something which, like Plato's cave, cannot be described to others. His brethren might not be able to grasp it.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't think that membership in any certain fraternity would have anything to do with the ability to travel astrally (I personally agree with Carl Gustav Jung in that everyone travels astrally; most people do it while they're sleeping, when the conscious mind is unable to restrict it, and call it "dreaming").

But I'm not sure that such things could not be described to others. After all, Plato did a pretty good job of explaining enlightenment through the allegory of the cave that you mentioned. In like manner, St. John the Evangelist described his astral visions in the book of Revelation, just as others have done.

Also, in such a case, it's not unthinkable that some Masons may secretly covet mental abilities.

Nor is it unthinkable that a non-Mason would. My point here is simply that the Masonic fraternity really has nothing to do with it. Similarly, we could say that it's not unthinkable that some McDonald's burger flippers may secretly covet mental abilities, but it would really have nothing to do with whether or not the individual flipped Big Macs for a living.

I say this also in my understanding that there is a pecking-order in Masonry and it is pyramid-like in its form in that there are few at the top teirs and lots at the bottom levels. Is this an accurate image? Isn't there possibly some competition between Masons and jockeying for position, internally?

No, it isn't true, but is one of the most common misconceptions. In Masonry, there is no one at "the top", with everyone else being at the bottom. Masonry, as mentioned, is a product of the 18th century Enlightenment, which emerged from classical liberalism. One of the most important concepts in this philosophy is equality. There is a very important Masonic symbol, the Level, which represents the Masonic ideal of equality.

Those who are leaders in Masonry are elected by the universal suffrage of their Brethren. They serve their terms of office, and then are replaced. The highest ranking Mason in a jurisdiction is the Grand Master. But after his term of office has expired, he goes back to being a regular member, and is replaced by the new guy.

If some small group of Masons could expand the power of their mind, they could subsume the structure of their lodge and perhaps engage in espionage or otherwise keep their psi-abilities secret.

Theoretically, perhaps, but I wouldn't personally think so. It is my belief, through experience, that Nature only yields her great secrets to those who prove themselves worthy to receive them. Furthermore, and once again, such a thing would have nothing to do with being a Mason or an Elk or a member of Amway.

Have you read "Psychic Warrior"? That's an awesome book written in 1994 (as I recall) about how psi abilities are being studied by the US and how crude and limited our view of the mind has been for the last few thousand years.

No, I haven't, but I agree with you that we still know very little.

I am not sure how to understand your description of the difference between Illuminatist Masons (which, heretofore, I hadn't heard any Mason speak of) and other Masons.

No difference, really. The Illuminati was formed in 1776 in Bavaria for the purpose of launching a political revolution against the Jesuit Electorate, and replacing it with a democracy. The Illuminati were inspired by the American Revolution, and wanted to copy it. Weishaupt, who had been a science professor at the University of Ingolstadt, was fired because of his deistic views, and he believed it was time to introduc freedom of speech, and separate church from state.

Most of the people who joined the Illuminati were either Masons or Weishaupt's former students, or both. The Illuminati was soon infiltrated by government spies, and many of its members arrested. Weishaupt fled to Prussia, where he spent the rest of his life teaching physics and writing books.

It says here that both Theism and Deism mean the same thing: "God"

"Theism" means a belief in God, while "Deism" refers to the 18th century phenomenon that became popular among intellectuals, that said God exists, but most religious beliefs are simply superstitions. Deism allowed people to reconcile their belief in God with secular science and rationalism.

Revolutionary liberals who all believed in God? Do Masons admit atheists?

Masons do not admit atheists. The revolutionary liberals were those who wanted to replace the church-state dictatorships with democracies. This would allow freedom of religion.

The Illuminati never claimed those powers, but what does absence of proof mean? Weren't they able to exist as a shadow within Masonic lodges?

No, the Illuminati had their own Chapters. The Illuminati and Masonry were two separate organizations, although some people belonged to both.

My next question would be: Does the Mason initiate know what you have posted here? Would it affect them to know these things?

I don't know. Most of what I've posted is readily available in any good history book, except of course my own personal opinions on telepathy and that sort of thing.

[edit on 16-8-2005 by Masonic Light]

But, at least from a historical perspective, Masonic Lodges and Illuminati Chapters provided a place for Deists and rationalists to meet that was not controlled by the Church. Deism is not as popular today as it once was, but from my personal studies I have concluded that Deism was an important factor in the establishment of the so-called "secret societies", i.e., many were secret because Deism and/or universalism was considered heretical, and those possessing heretical views could be imprisoned, tortured, and/or executed.

I have heard of this persecution of Masons as non-believers or as enemies of the Church. This is why I like them, in part. They oppose the church. Personally I am for the destruction and termination of all funded and organized religion. Turn those churches into historical relics or common temples for meditation, etc. Something useful other than stage magic and hypnosis.

I loathe organized religion and so I am probably idealistically aligned with some Masons, then? --So long as I believe in God, that is?

Is quiet meditation permitted to Masons?

Masons can do anything they want, provided they do not violate the moral law, which would be a breach of Masonic law. The term "moral law" is sort of vague, but Masons found guilty of felonies and some misdemeanors are automatically expelled, while other less serious violations are handled on a case-by-case basis.

If so, it may be the case that a Mason may astrally project or otherwise experience something which, like Plato's cave, cannot be described to others. His brethren might not be able to grasp it.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't think that membership in any certain fraternity would have anything to do with the ability to travel astrally (I personally agree with Carl Gustav Jung in that everyone travels astrally; most people do it while they're sleeping, when the conscious mind is unable to restrict it, and call it "dreaming").

But I'm not sure that such things could not be described to others. After all, Plato did a pretty good job of explaining enlightenment through the allegory of the cave that you mentioned. In like manner, St. John the Evangelist described his astral visions in the book of Revelation, just as others have done.

If I am understanding this argument, you are saying:

"Peeps, let us assume that telepathy does exist. If so, I think the nature of some men who possesed this ability would be to discuss it and to thereby better understand it. These men would do so in the belief that hoarding or hiding such a valuable skill (as being able to read or control men's minds) wouldn't serve anyone, in the end. Such a marvel, even if it may cause covetousness in the chests of those who hear about mind-reading but who cannot perform it (IE they can only have their minds read or be controlled). It is still something someone would share, and therefore it could not be kept secret."

Is that what you mean, essentially?

I say this also in my understanding that there is a pecking-order in Masonry and it is pyramid-like in its form in that there are few at the top teirs and lots at the bottom levels. Is this an accurate image? Isn't there possibly some competition between Masons and jockeying for position, internally?

No, it isn't true, but is one of the most common misconceptions. In Masonry, there is no one at "the top", with everyone else being at the bottom. Masonry, as mentioned, is a product of the 18th century Enlightenment, which emerged from classical liberalism. One of the most important concepts in this philosophy is equality. There is a very important Masonic symbol, the Level, which represents the Masonic ideal of equality.

Those who are leaders in Masonry are elected by the universal suffrage of their Brethren. They serve their terms of office, and then are replaced. The highest ranking Mason in a jurisdiction is the Grand Master. But after his term of office has expired, he goes back to being a regular member, and is replaced by the new guy.

Thanks for correcting this misconception on my part. Members of the lodge elect the men who will conduct the affairs of the lodge. Naturally they would choose the best men from among them. Makes sense.

Have you read "Psychic Warrior"? That's an awesome book written in 1994 (as I recall) about how psi abilities are being studied by the US and how crude and limited our view of the mind has been for the last few thousand years.

No, I haven't, but I agree with you that we still know very little.

Seriously, and I think this is a valid point because let us say that genetic/selective telepathy is proven true by some new diagnostic equipment to be invented tomorrow. If this happens, clearly some Masons would have known about the existence of telepathy. Wouldn't their brother Masons be a little shaken?

This Psychic Warrior book is great. I'm gonna post a little from it, if I can find it. It's relative to the thread.

The Illuminati was formed in 1776 in Bavaria for the purpose of launching a political revolution against the Jesuit Electorate, and replacing it with a democracy. The Illuminati were inspired by the American Revolution, and wanted to copy it. Weishaupt, who had been a science professor at the University of Ingolstadt, was fired because of his deistic views, and he believed it was time to introduce freedom of speech, and separate church from state.

As I understand it, the Jesuits are like the Catholic CIA? Is that right? Can you comment on the likelihood or unliklihood of the Jesuits to hide things or follow a moral code similar to Masons?

So the electorate of the Jesuits gave them power over the might of the church, but AW wanted to democratize the ordination of priests? As a deist, why were the Jesuits AW's enemy?

The American rebellion "inspired" AW. On what grounds to you say this so surely? You've heard that the Illuminati have sometimes been credited with (or taken credit for) establishing America.

What was the Masonic interest in America post revolution?

Most of the people who joined the Illuminati were either Masons or Weishaupt's former students, or both. The Illuminati was soon infiltrated by government spies, and many of its members arrested. Weishaupt fled to Prussia, where he spent the rest of his life teaching physics and writing books.

So the Illuminati was infiltrated by spies and this was its end? Why did the Illuminati have enemies of such devoted intent and the Masons did not? Why did one group get infiltrated (and destroyed?) while the other still thrives?

On a side note: what is the diff. between Freemasonry and Masonry, as labels?

Masons do not admit atheists. The revolutionary liberals were those who wanted to replace the church-state dictatorships with democracies. This would allow freedom of religion.

Why would the attitudes of those liberals (who may clearly have yearned for the ultimate freedom: to "kill God" in the Nietszchian sense) affect what Masonry would do today?

If I say that I believe only in a nebulous God, let's say I believe God is a giant cloud of gas dust 15au across and collectively, nebulously possessing 32mb worth of memory --very simple. Am I essentially an atheist? Would I rate for membership as a Mason? What core picture of God must be adhered to? Can I worship a rebel angel as God and qualify for Mason?

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[ASIDE:] Just a note to distance myself from Solly Tulbure's beliefs. I hope this thread goes a long way toward proving him wrong. He had some screwed up ideas, and probably 97% of what he wrote was BS. I just thought this one was worth chewing over.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
I have heard of this persecution of Masons as non-believers or as enemies of the Church. This is why I like them, in part. They oppose the church. Personally I am for the destruction and termination of all funded and organized religion.

You are mistaken. Freemasons do NOT oppose the church! Far from it! We oppose tyranny, fanaticism and abuse of power. We accept men of all faiths, which has caused the church to oppose US, but not the other way around. Most masons are very devout men.

The American rebellion "inspired" AW. On what grounds to you say this so surely? You've heard that the Illuminati have sometimes been credited with (or taken credit for) establishing America.

I have never heard that, and surely you cannot take that seriously. The Bavarian Illuminati had nothing to do with America, and the Illuminati that conspiracy theorists speak of has never been proven to exist, only hypothesized (badly).

So the Illuminati was infiltrated by spies and this was its end? Why did the Illuminati have enemies of such devoted intent and the Masons did not? Why did one group get infiltrated (and destroyed?) while the other still thrives?

The Bavarian Illuminati had enemies because it conspired to overthrown the government that was in power at that time. Conspiring against a government generally gains one very powerful enemies. Freemasonry has never, as an organization, involved itself in politics and, despite the belief of conspiracy theorists (though they can never prove it), generally keeps to itself and doesn't involve itself in much outside of its own organization (except charities, generally).

On a side note: what is the diff. between Freemasonry and Masonry, as labels?

Nothing. Freemasonry is the appropriate title of the practice, masonry is just shortened. makes it easier to say and type.

Whoa. I was doing some researching for a thread this morning and I came across this wiki article on Solomon Tulbure. Yikes!

Rrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiight... Methinks I wouldn't take his word for it.

[edit on 8/26/05 by The Axeman]

[edit on 8/26/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by smallpeeps

I loathe organized religion and so I am probably idealistically aligned with some Masons, then? --So long as I believe in God, that is?

I've never met a Mason who loathed organized religion; in fact, most Masons believe in one religion or another. Masons just believe don't believe that religions have the right to boss people around, and that each person has the right to decide for themselves.

As I understand it, the Jesuits are like the Catholic CIA? Is that right? Can you comment on the likelihood or unliklihood of the Jesuits to hide things or follow a moral code similar to Masons?

The Jesuits of today aren't really the same as the ones 300 years ago. At one time, I suppose that, yes, they could be considered covert operatives of the church. Today, I believe they are harmless.

So the electorate of the Jesuits gave them power over the might of the church, but AW wanted to democratize the ordination of priests? As a deist, why were the Jesuits AW's enemy?

The original purpose of the Jesuits was to combat the Reformation, establishing a "Counter-Reformation". The Deists were even "worse" than the Protestants, because they called the whole of Christianity into question.

The American rebellion "inspired" AW. On what grounds to you say this so surely? You've heard that the Illuminati have sometimes been credited with (or taken credit for) establishing America.

Several members of the Illuminati, including Weishaupt and Goethe, wrote that they had been inspired by the American Revolution.

So the Illuminati was infiltrated by spies and this was its end? Why did the Illuminati have enemies of such devoted intent and the Masons did not? Why did one group get infiltrated (and destroyed?) while the other still thrives?

The Illuminati were primarily a movement in Bavaria, and focused its attention on Bavarian politics. Masonry, on the other hand, was international. It too was banned in Bavaria, but existed elsewhere.

On a side note: what is the diff. between Freemasonry and Masonry, as labels?

None. "Freemasonry" is probably so-called because the guilds in the middle ages, from which the modern fraternity derived, admitted only free men instead of serfs.

If I say that I believe only in a nebulous God, let's say I believe God is a giant cloud of gas dust 15au across and collectively, nebulously possessing 32mb worth of memory --very simple. Am I essentially an atheist? Would I rate for membership as a Mason? What core picture of God must be adhered to?

A belief in a Supreme Being is the only religious requirement. Masonry does not discriminate on the basis of individual religious belief.

Can I worship a rebel angel as God and qualify for Mason?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking. If you believe God is a "rebel angel", whatever that may mean, I suppose it's up to you. As long as you accept the Masonic teaching that all fraternity members are held to the moral code, then I suppose you would qualify.

don't bother about the three mason there to strong i heard they wear shiny shoes and that judges are three masons and if any three mason is on a trial he does a signal and his knee then the judge will let him go

Hey, i dont know if its just me, but when you watch commercials on the Television, if yoo look closely when it changes to another picture or scene, you can actually see the triangle with the eye in the middle...