How 911 Was Staged Reported by Major UK Newspaper

Originally posted by mclarenmp4
Here is the site with the details of the "matching tail number" thing.
www.911bts.brad.com...
Took me 2 mins to find through yahoo by searching for "flight 93 tail in service".
Perhaps investigating is just not your "thing".

Perhaps we have different ideas of what constitutes "proof".

Friedman (one of the "sources" quoted by at bts.brad.com) himself states quite clearly: "I simply took notes on the aircraft's nose and tail numbers before boarding each flight. Is there a chance that I captured one or the other numbers incorrectly? Certainly.".

Or did you miss that part?

There have been numerous occasions in the past - and indeed, since 9/11 - where airports and FAA have gotten their information wrong.

But then that wasn't really the question. I was curious about the guy who "saw" the tail numbers...and he turns out to be the first to admit he could have been wrong.

I did not think my government was complicit in the act for years after 9/11 happened. Now I do. The trip wire for me was the enormous amount of coincidences in the official conspiracy theory. GW’s brother Marvin on the board of Securicom for one thing. It just did not add up. Some people can’t imagine that our government would butcher us in broad daylight with wild abandon but I believe that they did exactly that.

Even Noam Chomsky when asked if he believed in MIHOP answered “They would have to be insane” and this from one of America’s leading dissidents who often refers to American foreign policy in terms of mass murder and genocide. If MIHOP is that difficult for even Noam Chomsky wrap his massive intellect around you can bet it is not easy for the average person.

I find it is more effective to just mention a few things like the PUT orders and Poppy Bush’s brunch with Osama’s brother on 9/11 and Marvin Bush and leave it at that and let the seed grow on its own.

It’s a bitter brew that takes a long time to ferment. Once I was “down the rabbit hole” everything made much more sense. Gulf of Tonkin, Pearl Harbor, the Lusitania, remember the Main all the way back to Crassis. Coupled with rigged elections we have a very big problem in this country.

LIHOP is pretty much the same as MIHOP to me. I see LIHOP as a way of getting people to be able to cross the rubicon and make the passage through the looking glass possible.


[edit on 18-8-2005 by Alexodin]

Originally posted by Alexodin
I did not think my government was complicit in the act for years after 9/11 happened. Now I do. The trip wire for me was the enormous amount of coincidences in the official conspiracy theory. GW’s brother Marvin on the board of Securicom for one thing. It just did not add up. Some people can’t imagine that our government would butcher us in broad daylight with wild abandon but I believe that they did exactly that.

Even Noam Chomsky when asked if he believed in MIHOP answered “They would have to be insane” and this from one of America’s leading dissidents who often refers to American foreign policy in terms of mass murder and genocide. If MIHOP is that difficult for even Noam Chomsky wrap his massive intellect around you can bet it is not easy for the average person.

I find it is more effective to just mention a few things like the PUT orders and Poppy Bush’s brunch with Osama’s brother on 9/11 and Marvin Bush and leave it at that and let the seed grow on its own.

It’s a bitter brew that takes a long time to ferment. Once I was “down the rabbit hole” everything made much more sense. Gulf of Tonkin, Pearl Harbor, the Lusitania, remember the Main all the way back to Crassis. Coupled with rigged elections we have a very big problem in this country.

LIHOP is pretty much the same as MIHOP to me. I see LIHOP as a way of getting people to be able to cross the rubicon and make the passage through the looking glass possible.


[edit on 18-8-2005 by Alexodin]

Very good points all, Alex. The few things that continue to irk me about most peoples
arguments with respect to the fact that it couldnt possibly have been staged by our own
government for their agenda is along the lines of how "difficult" it would be to pull something like
this off, and how "not OUR government! they wouldnt DO that to our own people."
Is it beyond the scope of the imagination that we could have a criminal in our White House?
A murderer? A liar? A cheater? Someone more thoroughly entrenched in his own personal
agenda than caring about the average people like us?
Like you, I supported our government at first, and felt in no way threatened by anyone else
except from outside terrorism..now, I feel more threatened from within when putting the
pieces of the puzzle together in a logical fashion. Personally, and I speak not only for myself
but for many many others I have taken the time to ask the same exact questions to,
feel less secure now than I did on the day and the subsequent days after the 9-11 incident.
All of the information being held "classified" all in the name of national security?
If national security is such a concern than I would have to imagine that a majority of the people
should, by its own definition and design, FEEL more secure. However from what *I* can see
the growing concensus is that just the opposite is true. To me that means its time for the people
to take back what is ours. The Constitution and Declaration doesnt belong to the government,
it belongs to the people. The government establishments arent "their" establishments, they
belong to the people. The information gleaned from ANY operation ANYWHERE doesnt belong
to the Government it belongs to the PEOPLE. We banter back and forth on what COULD have happened,
however the information that lies within belongs to us, the people, and the unwillingness of the
current administration to acquiesce on divulging that information should be unacceptable to each and every American. For them to mask that information behind the
guise of "national security" should be entirely unacceptable.
Ive said this before im sure, and feel compelled to say it again, that, we put the Administration
in power where they are, and by nature of our own democracy we can certainly affect the changes
necessary to remove them if the need arises. In my opinion the need HAS arisen.
Do you feel at peace and secure? Most of the people I know dont and it cant be a coincidence
that we are alone in that.

alphabetaone:
Is it beyond the scope of the imagination that we could have a criminal in our White House? A murderer? A liar? A cheater? Someone more thoroughly entrenched in his own personal agenda than caring about the average people like us?
---------------
Yes it is beyond many people’s imagination. Many people, including myself, were raised on a steady diet of cold war propaganda and Disney. It is inconceivable that the greatest nation on earth would murder its own citizens to propel an agenda of war profiteering and the rise of a police state in America. Just as it is also difficult to impossible for many to understand that most professional sports are rigged. Well, boxing and horse racing maybe but never pro football. It is just not possible that pro football is rigged. Oh and JFK, RFK, and MLK were killed by lone gunman and the conspiracy to assassinate went no further than the lone perpetrator. When J Edgar Hoover testified before Congress that there was no such thing as organized crime in America it should have set off civil defense sirens yet nobody batted an eye. In hindsight (now that he’s dead) it turns out that he was corrupt. Imagine that.

The one that really annoys me is the idea that the only thing Clinton did wrong was lie about a personal matter. After the Warren Commission and the 9/11 Commission the Whitewater investigation has got to be the greatest white wash in history yet partisans grasp it as proof that Clinton was a bad man even though he was acquitted by the Senate as an innocent lamb. Clinton sold high tech missile guidance systems to China, which was against the law, and the only thing Ken Starr could find was that he lied about a personal matter? Amazing. My point is that extensive corruption is bi-partisan in nature.

Unfortunately we can’t vote the criminals out of power because the elections are rigged. That seems to me to be the place to start. We need to outlaw electronic voting machines that can be hacked by high school kids, as has been demonstrated.

I do not feel safe with John Negroponte (the butcher of Honduras and El Salvador) as the head of the NIS. I would feel much safer if he were behind bars for life or institutionalized as criminally insane. Negroponte’s black psy ops beheaded Nick Berg and others to deflect criticism of Abu Ghraib atrocities. The same goes for anyone that was complicit in 9/11 and other acts of murder.

Bernard Kerik’s sordid story of sex went to the top of the headlines but his connections to organized crime (fixing building inspections and skimming the profits from Rikers Island cigarette concessions) were only visible on the periphery, yet he was almost head of homeland security. A gangster in charge of HS! I do feel somewhat reassured that real Islamic terror barely exists outside of Israeli Palestinian conflicts. Al Quaida is a CIA false flag construct comprised of ex-Muhadeen. The rank and file members of Al Quaida don’t know, except at the top of course, that they serve the interests of Poppy Bush, the oil companies and Israel.

But before we get to all that we need to hear a fireman with a flag on his helmet tell us that he heard multiple explosions in the WTC.

I have been off line for a few months due to travel and life catching up with me. So high to everyone once again, its good to be back. I would like to add to this thread an incredable version of what happened at the pentagon which was told to me by a clairvoiant that I consider a very clear and precise visionary whom I have Known for quite some time.
I was told that the area that the pentagon was hit was actually the precise location where the underdogs of this masterminded plot staged by the american government worked. This area was the location of all the people involved, all the documents and all the plans to be carried out by this group of black operatives. And oblivious to the very nature of the beast they serve they had no idea that they would be destroyed alongside any remaining evidence. The plane ( a small one) was only for the show as it was an internal bomb that ripped through that section moments before the remote aircraft hit, killing all loose ties involved.
MY view : Once again G Bush can rest assured his agenda to create war has full throttle and the American people are behind him. ( wake-up AMERICA )
If you look into the bible the main agenda of the antichrist is to take over the holy land while bringing all other nations to its knee's.

Originally posted by QuietSoul
As soon as I read them quoting Kevin Ryan I instantly stopped reading this "report". Kevin Ryan was fired for making claims he wasnt qualified to make. And he was fired for misrepresenting his firm.

He also apparently had no idea what he was talking about in regards to the particular ASTM standard he referenced.





also


I found this:

TABLOID n. 1. A term used to describe several of the national newspapers, specifically THE SUN, THE DAILY STAR, THE DAILY MIRROR, THE DAILY EXPRESS, THE MORNING STAR (the socialist paper) and THE DAILY MAIL. A TABLOID'S page is small (being approximately one-half the page size of a standard newspaper). They are characterised by outlandish, sensationalist headlines at the slightest whim of news. The TABLOIDS were especially active during the Falklands crisis (although real news is not a prerequisite for a TABLOID).

The TABLOIDS are very popular and competition is fierce among them for readers. THE SUN and the DAILY STAR sport a bare breasted BIRD to keep the readers attention (should the reader get bored with the shallow amount of information in the rest of the paper). The DAILY MAIL has been distancing itself (in respectability) from the other TABLOIDS and more closely approximates a newspaper. See also PAGE THREE and FLEETSTREET.

The Times:
Read by the people who run the country.
Daily Mirror:
Read by the people who think they run the country.
Guardian:
Read by the people who think they ought to run the country.
Morning Star:
Read by the people who think the country ought to be run by another country.
Daily Mail:
Read by the wives of the people who own the country.
Financial Times:
Read by the people who own the country.
Daily Express:
Read by the people who think that the country ought to be run as it used to be.
Daily Telegraph:
Read by the people who think it still is.
The Sun:
Their readers don't care who runs the country as long as she has big tits.

[edit on 26-8-2005 by HowardRoark]

i know very little about the tail numbers on airplanes...........but i just wondered if after a plane crashes.............is that number not used again?

or is it permanently "retired" from service?

i didn't know if the things are recycled again or not?

just curious.

angie

Originally posted by HowardRoark
He also apparently had no idea what he was talking about in regards to the particular ASTM standard he referenced.

You don't know anything what happed to that guy yet you swallow the story of him being incompetent. I guess it's just another coincidence that yet another whistleblower is fired from his job?
Plus, you keep repeatig evidence of how people that find holes in the official report are gagged. But your vision has become so narrow that you miss the actual cause of that person being fired.
I'm pretty sure you don't even know what an ASTM standard is, but you will look it up by the time you reply wont you ?

I tend to align myself more with the GOP and the Demos. However, I have come to the conclusion:

it does not matter which party candidate you vote for, the higher controlling force will win their will no matter the party.

Examples of this extend to:

WWII, supposedly FDR and kronies knew of JAP surprise attack. What idiot would ever have all the Naval fighting ships in port at the same time. Only reason is to terminate the fighting force to panic the citizens into war which is what happened. Meanwhire Randolph Bush is getting rich by having several companies he owns doing business with the Third Reich.

Step it up to JFK shooting. JFK made enemies in high places. Eliminate the gnagging mequitoe! When asked as to where he was at the time of the assination GHW Bush said he hadn't a clue. Then he phones back and says he was in Tyler, TX with Zapata Oil Co doing company business. Come on everyone knows where they were when JFK was shot. You may have been a gleam in your mother's eye, You may have been in school. Or you may have seen JFK and Kackie 45 minutes before the shooting in Fort Worth.

Bush, Nixon, Haig and no telling who else was in Dallas that day. LBJ was sure as hell there. I don't think swearing in on Air Force One to become the next President is legal anyway. All are murderers but they have lived a long life. The little assassins and other contributors were the ones murdered or suicide cases or accidentally wiped out.

Reagan wanted to change the hell out of DC. Turn it upside down until a bullet almost wiped him out. He never talked of his ideas again.

The Oklahoma Federal bombing of the building was not fertilizer. It may have had fertiler over the top to hide it in case the truck were stopped but C4 was the material. There are speculations that C4 was around the entire building. You will never know. Those that are way up on the food change will not talk. Those that are considered a risk are invited to a suicide, accidental death, or any other device to eliminate the mouth piece.

WTC first bombing. The truck had so much explosive material, it is a wonder it didn't break the axial before it reached its intended target. We will never know all the implications of this. The FBI, CIA, Secret Service, CFR will continue to wipe out the little guys and reward the brotherhood of conspirators and traitors to our way of life.

We are in Iraq and Afganistan raising hell. Should we be? That's a debate I don't want to touch. It is a yes and no. What is more important is how did we get to this point. More lies like in Vietnam. LBJ lied about happenings in Vietnam to escalate the war. Sounds like WWII and FDR on Pearl Harbor to me. Weapons of Mass destruction that have not materialized and "Bring IT ON". You don't say 'stuff' ( I want to use a different word here) like that in war. If we are going to PLAY war let's Play. Pull the men out and carpet bomb Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, and my favorite Pakistan with the many nuclear weapons we have stored. After the dust settles shoot the ones that glow in the dark and bury the rest. Otherwise get the Hell out and quit killing our young men and women (boys and girls).

There is a conspiracy going on over the entire world and we need a few good tractors to pull our heads out of where they are buried. I hate to admit this but any person allowed to serve in a high position within our government with only few exceptions has already been okayed by the higher up conspirators.

Did GW Bush know about the WTC beforehand? I doubt it. The CIA, FBI and CFR don't tell the President everything they are upto. They arrange things. Arrange for the President to speak to a school in FL. Did you see his face? The same face I would have of disblief and 'What The Hell Do I Do Next?' face.

But GW Bush is still involved after the fact. He was just unaware initially as much as I hate to admit. All this commitment started with Prescott Bush to son to son. Ted Kenedy is in on this; just as much as he was involved with his two brothers murders. Why do you think he drinks so much and eats so much? He is a miserable man. Sounds far fetch I know. But this is the only logical explanation that comes to bear when you take off the rose colored glasses. They are all in it for themselves and world dominance to a one world governemt with the Pope sitting in the newly constructed Temple. I must be going crazy to be believe such a far fetched idea. Please nurse Mildred Ratched don't lock me away yet. I have more to learn about this upside down world.





[edit on 26-8-2005 by Josekinuc]

Originally posted by Josekinuc
it does not matter which party candidate you vote for, the higher controlling force will win their will no matter the party.

You're probably right, and it's a very scary thought. But know that they are a minority of people. Always remember that, you just need to find a way to gather the majority.

They played a very good trick with the elections.
No matter who you'd choose, they would've gone down the same path, but that wasn't the goal of the elections, the goal was to seperate the country into two camps.

Originally posted by Alexodin
I do feel somewhat reassured that real Islamic terror barely exists outside of Israeli Palestinian conflicts. Al Quaida is a CIA false flag construct comprised of ex-Mujadeen. The rank and file members of Al Qaida don’t know, except at the top of course, that they serve the interests of Bush, the oil companies and Israel.
But before we get to all that we need to hear a fireman with a flag on his helmet tell us that he heard multiple explosions in the WTC.

Even if sirens went off and the truth came out, they would still carry on...As I look out my window, I see families on pontoon boats, teenager's jet skiing, and old people playing in their garden... This is what American's want, to be left alone to do their own thing and hope at the same time that some other folks will do the dirty work for them and they'll see them on the "news" in the evening... This will never happen.
If Hoover was indeed corrupt as you claim, then this corruption is so imbedded within the government they obviously aren't too worried about their reckoning day when the reckoner's are just as scummy...I mean, congress letting whitewater clinton off the hook for his little charade as if he didn't really do anything wrong? Just a little slap on the wrist is all it takes to set him straight right?! If that were an honest joe in that position they would wipe their asses with every part of his body and send him away... Martha stewart?
What she did pales in comparision to the whitewater scandal of the clinton's.
She just didn't have any dirties in the higher up positions to grease.
The more I go on and on about examples such as these the more my head gets dizzy and wants to pop off and fly away in disbelief...

Originally posted by Shroomery

Originally posted by HowardRoark
He also apparently had no idea what he was talking about in regards to the particular ASTM standard he referenced.

You don't know anything what happed to that guy yet you swallow the story of him being incompetent. I guess it's just another coincidence that yet another whistleblower is fired from his job?
Plus, you keep repeatig evidence of how people that find holes in the official report are gagged. But your vision has become so narrow that you miss the actual cause of that person being fired.
I'm pretty sure you don't even know what an ASTM standard is, but you will look it up by the time you reply wont you ?

Contrary to Kevin Ryan’s contention, just because the steel samples passed ASTM E119 does not mean that the truss assemblies were impervious to failure in a fire. Also, I believe that the endpoint for the ASTM E119 test on steel beams occurs when either all of the thermocouples on the sample reach an average of 1000 F or any individual thermocouples on the sample exceed 1200 F, not 2000 F as is his claim.

ASTM E119 is most commonly applied to whole assemblies, i.e. a truss and composite floor deck, including all applied fireproofing materials. Should this fireproofing be dislodged, or if the truss becomes physically damaged, then the standard is no longer valid.

From UL:

The ASTM E119 fire test method provides a comparative benchmark to measure the fire resistance of building assemblies. The fire test-chamber conditions specified by the ASTM E119 test are representative of a fully developed fire within most buildings. This fire condition does not and cannot replicate every fire situation. The hourly fire-resistive ratings based on an ASTM E119 test do not mean that a specific structure will remain intact for the indicated rating period.

www.iaei.org...

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Contrary to Kevin Ryan’s contention, just because the steel samples passed ASTM E119 does not mean that the truss assemblies were impervious to failure in a fire. Also, I believe that the endpoint for the ASTM E119 test on steel beams occurs when either all of the thermocouples on the sample reach an average of 1000 F or any individual thermocouples on the sample exceed 1200 F, not 2000 F as is his claim.

Ah but see, you totally misinterpret his letter to make it applyable to your theory.

He never said the steel needs to reach 2000 F for the towers to collapse, he said at 2000 F, the steel melts.
After that, he said, a temperature of 1000 F is needed to be able to forge with it, meaning it would also buckle under stress.

But that's not all, he also says that according to the published metallurgical tests, no temperature above 250°C was ever reached. This was later entirely ignored by NIST in their new report.

Here's the entire letter yo Frank Gayle (head of NIST, go figure why he got fired)

To: [email protected]

Date: 11/11/2004

Dr. Gayle,

Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.

As I'm sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.

There continues to be a number of "experts" making public claims about how the WTC buildings fell. One such person, Dr. Hyman Brown from the WTC construction crew, claims that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel (1). He states "What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel . . . burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts." Additionally, the newspaper that quotes him says "Just-released preliminary findings from a National Institute of Standards and Technology study of the World Trade Center collapse support Brown's theory."

We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.

The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up (3), and support your team's August 2003 update as detailed by the Associated Press (4), in which you were ready to "rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse". The evaluation of paint deformation and spheroidization seem very straightforward, and you noted that the samples available were adequate for the investigation. Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building's steel core to "soften and buckle"(5). Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that "most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C". To soften steel for the purposes of forging, normally temperatures need to be above 1100C (6). However, this new summary report suggests that much lower temperatures were be able to not only soften the steel in a matter of minutes, but lead to rapid structural collapse.

This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I'm sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company.

There is no question that the events of 9/11 are the emotional driving force behind the War on Terror. And the issue of the WTC collapse is at the crux of the story of 9/11. My feeling is that your metallurgical tests are at the crux of the crux of the crux. Either you can make sense of what really happened to those buildings, and communicate this quickly, or we all face the same destruction and despair that come from global decisions based on disinformation and "chatter".

Thanks for your efforts to determine what happened on that day. You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth. I've copied one of these people on this message as a sign of respect and support. I believe your work could also be a nucleus of fact around which the truth, and thereby global peace and justice, can grow again. Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel.

1. www.boulderweekly.com...

2. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st edition, pg D-187

3. wtc.nist.gov...

4. www.voicesofsept11.org...

5. wtc.nist.gov... (pg 11)

6. www.forging.org...

Kevin Ryan
Site Manager
Environmental Health Laboratories
A Division of Underwriters Laboratories

South Bend

[edit on 26-8-2005 by Shroomery]

[edit on 26-8-2005 by Shroomery]

quote:
Major United Kingdom Newspaper “Daily Mail’ posts story How 911 Was Staged

SO FAR THIS IS THE LARGEST ARTICLE EVER PRINTED BY THE UK MAINSTREAM MEDIA RAISING MANY OF THE SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT THE 9/11 COVER UP.
By Tony Rennell – Daily Mail, Saturday 6th August, 2005

The plot by America’s military bosses was devilish in both design and intent – to fabricate an outrage against innocent civilians, fool the world and provide a pretext for war. In the pentagon, a top secret team drew up a plan to simultaneously send up two airliners painted and numbered exactly the same, one from a civil airport in America, the other from a secret military airbase nearby



and yet none of the dozens of people that would have to be involved in a plot like this have had an attack of conscience and come forward ???

"As I look out my window, I see families on pontoon boats, teenager's jet skiing, and old people playing in their garden... This is what American's want, to be left alone to do their own thing"

what is wrong with that ? would the world be a better place if the tin-foil hat brigade ran everything ?

glimpse of that reality, young jenny goes to first day of school

jenny: "good morning miss smith, how are you today ?"
smith : "what do you mean that that ? did mkultra get to you ? sit down before the cia gets a clear look at you"

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
"As I look out my window, I see families on pontoon boats, teenager's jet skiing, and old people playing in their garden... This is what American's want, to be left alone to do their own thing"

what is wrong with that ? would the world be a better place if the tin-foil hat brigade ran everything ?

glimpse of that reality, young jenny goes to first day of school

jenny: "good morning miss smith, how are you today ?"
smith : "what do you mean that that ? did mkultra get to you ? sit down before the cia gets a clear look at you"

While you're coming up with jokes about how the CIA enters your life, your president is exactly doig that. You're being stripped of your liberties and rights, But keep laughing! If you keep looking the other way long enough all problems eventually go away.. if you live long enough that is. Ignorance is bliss.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
"As I look out my window, I see families on pontoon boats, teenager's jet skiing, and old people playing in their garden... This is what American's want, to be left alone to do their own thing"

Your absolutely right, both you us and everyone else wants exactly the same thing. Too many people don't appear to be able to appreciate and enjoy the freedoms we enjoy. I don't know why that is, maybe they need to get out more - who knows!
So many people, including me, always complain about how hard done by we are yet when you look at the tips that are some parts of the world, we are so much better off.

All these new laws come in, but I havn't yet seen them affect me or anyone I know in our normal and fulfilling day to day lives. When I do then I might start to believe it.

I think more people should go out and enjoy the freedoms they have and also try and look at other parts of the world and even visit them so they can get a better perspective on things.

From what I've seen (including my own behaviour - especially in the past) the biggest restriction on a happy life is always being paranoid of and looking for conspiracies to the extreme. You soon become so paranoid you think you cannot do anything and as it takes over your life you stop noticing all the many, many things you can do.

Shroomery, you accuse others of being ignorant but why do you think your agenda is the right one? You too are merely going by what someone else's opinon is the same as the rest of us, yours has a different agenda that's all. That doesn't mean he or they are right any more so than you argue the government arn't.
Repeating parrot fashion theories with little or no understanding is not proof and if we are guilty of ignorance then it is no more so than you.

I suggest that if you are wrong in your ideas then you should be out there enjoying life while you can, rather than waste it away.

If you are right than I also suggest you get out there and enjoy life, while you still can.

[edit on 26-8-2005 by AgentSmith]

Originally posted by AgentSmith

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
"As I look out my window, I see families on pontoon boats, teenager's jet skiing, and old people playing in their garden... This is what American's want, to be left alone to do their own thing"

Your absolutely right, both you us and everyone else wants exactly the same thing. Too many people don't appear to be able to appreciate and enjoy the freedoms we enjoy. I don't know why that is, maybe they need to get out more - who knows!
So many people, including me, always complain about how hard done by we are yet when you look at the tips that are some parts of the world, we are so much better off.

All these new laws come in, but I havn't yet seen them affect me or anyone I know in our normal and fulfilling day to day lives. When I do then I might start to believe it.

I think more people should go out and enjoy the freedoms they have and also try and look at other parts of the world and even visit them so they can get a better perspective on things.

From what I've seen (including my own behaviour - especially in the past) the biggest restriction on a happy life is always being paranoid of and looking for conspiracies to the extreme. You soon become so paranoid you think you cannot do anything and as it takes over your life you stop noticing all the many, many things you can do.

Shroomery, you accuse others of being ignorant but why do you think your agenda is the right one? You too are merely going by what someone else's opinon is the same as the rest of us, yours has a different agenda that's all. That doesn't mean he or they are right any more so than you argue the government arn't.
Repeating parrot fashion theories with little or no understanding is not proof and if we are guilty of ignorance then it is no more so than you.

I suggest that if you are wrong in your ideas then you should be out there enjoying life while you can, rather than waste it away.

If you are right than I also suggest you get out there and enjoy life, while you still can.

[edit on 26-8-2005 by AgentSmith]

You start out by proving my point that ignorance is bliss.
"As long as I don't suffer, let them do as they please"
First of all, weren't you english ?

Then, again, you start ranting about how we don't have any lives. Get over yourself prince charming ...

I'm so sick of your dreamworld where everyone who believes Bush is behind this is a paranoid delusional.
While you just don't have the attentionspan or the braincapacity to listen to someone talk about the REAL problems, too busy humping the misses huh ?
Some people have clearly pointed those important matters out in different threads instead of rambling about the details, some of the best points I've seen so far are in those posts. Yet none of you coincidence fairies even touched the subject.

Then you're saying that we should enjoy our freedom ? How freaking arrogant. Half the country is FIGHTING for your freedom right this very moment, and all you do is attack them for that same reason.
You make me sick.

I'm so sick of your dreamworld

While you just don't have the attentionspan or the braincapacity to listen to someone talk about the REAL problems

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.

Some people have clearly pointed those important matters out in different threads instead of rambling about the details, some of the best points I've seen so far are in those posts. Yet none of you coincidence fairies even touched the subject.

Probably because the discussion of these so called irrelevant "details" seem to disprove your "important manners"

I myself would rather "ramble" about the "details" of a fairy tale story then to believe the story without any type of research.

Half the country is FIGHTING for your freedom right this very moment, and all you do is attack them for that same reason.
You make me sick.

I must have missed the Freedom Fight Bus when it passed through my city.. what exactly are they fighting? Or are you talking about the people that are coming to these boards making ridiculous claims that don't hold up under detailed scrutiny?

While I still tend to "ride the fence" on this subject, it's people like you and Howard Roark (both sides of the fence) with the constant "You're ignorant if you don't see it my way!" line of thinking that has really been nagging at me.

Atleast HR presents his arguments with atleast a little research (I won't argue if the research is bias, because some of it is). You so far, have supplied nothing by name calling, insults, and direct attacks to anyone that disagrees with you.

If you're going to disagree, atleast supply some kind of material to back yourself up instead of outright lashing out at people.. you may get farther at "convincing" the "prince charmings" in "dreamworld" of your ludicris, and ill-research, claims.

[edit on 8/26/2005 by QuietSoul]

Originally posted by QuietSoul
If you're going to disagree, atleast supply some kind of material to back yourself up instead of outright lashing out at people.. you may get farther at "convincing" the "prince charmings" in "dreamworld" of your ludicris, and ill-research, claims.

I tried my best not to resort to namecalling.
And in fact, I provided a whole bunch of evidence, however when some ridicule me for coming up with other sources (the guardian or american free press in this matter) then I'm sorry but discussing facts becomes impossible.
In another discussion I showed them links to docu's by a guy named Nafeez Ahmed because I assumed buying his book would be out of the question.
While I pasted the review that said that this book was filled with sources to back it up, he decided to comment that "every conspiracy loonie could come up with a story".
Ok.. I tried, after that I stopped looking for evidence whenever they asked for it.
It is only these people that I refuse to debate in a civil manner just because that's how I've been treated, they blew all their chances with me, so please don't act like I'm the bad guy here).
I did my very best to provide sources other then the average "conspiracy websites", obviously that wasn't enough.
If they decide to mock me over perfectly good sources and paint them off as tabloids and conspiracy loonies, what do you want me to do ?

And actually I had allready decided that the last post with snide remarks would be my last addressed to him, so rest assured it wont happen again.