Albert Pike: A Man Misunderstood

hmm i didden't quite get that : i can't download files like that at the moment.. did you mean torrents? just get a client if thats the case, like bitlord.com takes 3 min to install its free then go to the page i mentioned and i can upload it to ya the program is not one youtube since its to large some times there are bits and pieces but then it dosen't make sence at all and just sound stupid like so many others short clips on youtube. but i think it's worth debating since some top schollars at harvard agrees and so one.. but watch it, even if you after watching it disagree you will see the things symbology afterwards in comercials and especially in your lodge i presume... when you get the background for the symbology used you might begin to ask questions. but let's look at that after. just get that client so you can get the entire program from: demonoid .com or I can just check out if i can upload to another torrent site that dosen't requirre registrations btw just found a live torrent at the wonderful site thepiratebay .org get it there when you have client

[edit on 16-10-2007 by a-being-?]

Originally posted by a-being-?
when you get the background for the symbology used you might begin to ask questions.

I'm interested why you assume that I have *not* investigated the origins of the symbols and the ideas they have represented over the ages.

This is what gets me most about conspiracy theorists on this site. More often than not, they assume that we (Masons) are ignorant while they alone are aware of the truth. They assume that we have not looked at the same material that they link to, probably because they took the propaganda at face value, and they cannot imagine that anyone could see what they saw and still defend the organization that is the subject of said propaganda.

For the record: I have seen almost all of the anti-Masonic websites on the internet, and read through what material I could stomach, as gross manipulation of information is hard for me to wade through.

When compared to the impartial information out there posted/provided by non-Masons, they seem almost silly. When compared to the wealth of actual factual information out there about Masonry posted and/or provided by Masons? The "Anti" sites seem quite stupid... dense, even. At least to me.

For example, the topic of this thread, Albert Pike. I *hate* it when people try to use omissive and out-of-context quotes from his book to try to make their point. If people would actually read anything beyond what is proffered up on whacked-out conspiracy sites, they would most likely change their opinion of old Al. But, that's neither here nor there, because the types of people who come here to shout and stamp their feet and whine about what an evil organization Masonry is are not interested in learning the truth; they are interested in finding "facts" (read: lies) that support their preconcieved notions of what Masonry is.

Invariably, those notions were handed to them in some way, rather than being developed by the individual themselves after observing the facts and then reflecting.

So, indulge me. Assume I have a reasonable understanding of symbolism and let us continue. Though, your posts have touched on many loosely related topics; indeed they are an amalgamation of almost every conspiracy theory I know of. Let's try to focus it a bit and then we can move on if need be.

This all started because you want me to watch a video about symbolism. This thread's topic is Albert Pike, which by necessity in this forum, includes Masonry.

So let's first discuss the symbolism found in Masonry and investigate it. You said in your post that if I "get the background of the symbology... [I] might begin to ask questions."

Indeed I did, and I found answers to my satisfaction.

What are *your* questions? Perhaps we can find suitable answers for them together?

Ok point taken you probberbly have reseached the symbology fine..
here is a question then what is your source? becourse if its from the accepted fact's in well what do i really know like state aproved books or english translations? the reason i would like you to watch the program is that i myself is in doubt i did go a little crazy in my last post admitted. now you ask wich symbology and i would start off with the skull and cross bones found on some of the orders, medals if youd like the reason why i told you if you knew the meaning of the symbology is that all the ranks medals ect is linked to royals IMO could be wrong it just terms like: the knight order or royal arch mason i think it was, becourse as you know the royals have been monarchs not very democratic IMO and a system using there terminology just makes me supicious IF you know what the royals represent in the old days..nothing good i would argue.. thats why i REALLY would like you to watch it still even if you don't belive it all there must be something...and as far as i know the original masons where callede stone masons becourse they where from normal mason people (working class) and today at least where i live you have to be rich in order to join wich i view as a step in the wrong direction there by making it a possebility that it could be infiltrated at some loges but lets start with the skull and bones motive found on the knightly order i think it waS look at my previous post to find it! the one with blue satin and well forgot sorry but its in previous post the one that whent maybe to crazy hehe..... after all much of the known knowlege today is gathered by top officials like aristrocrats who has connections hell just take the british cyclopidia Britanica and if someone disagree they are being accused as fruitcakes wierdos and anti goverment i just find it interesting if there is nothing to it why can't there be an open debate where people get a chance to defend themselves? if you finally get to see their views on tv its put togehter so they look like loonies but if you have watched some programs like the michael tsarion and then see him on discovery scifi channel after you can see that he is being cut off..here i go again sorry ahmm the skull and cross bones it was i will look at some more and come with more questions later

[edit on 29-10-2007 by a-being-?]

Quote masonic light.....Pike was a member and Communicant of Christ Episcopal Church in Washington, D.C. His personal religious beliefs were therefore Anglican in nature, as he was in communion with the Holy Catholic Church of England. His religious worship centered around the Anglican Liturgy, from the Book of Common Prayer, and his religious beliefs were those issued in the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and Athanasian Creed.

here i read pike was associated with the holy english catholic church and i presume that is run by her majesty or am I getting something wrong? if not i think the could be a reason if you follow mythology of old and i think its funny that the royals use the same symbology today along with secret sosietys feel free to correct me as i would like to learn

Originally posted by a-being-?
Ok point taken you probberbly have reseached the symbology fine..
here is a question then what is your source?

Ummm... well, there are lots. Where to begin? I can't really squeeze 4 years of research and sources into one post; you just have to be careful where you get your information. I find that going to occult society websites, like BOTA as an example, or other Hermetic or Qabalistic groups usually returns the results I want. I have researched sources from both "sides," as in those who are explaining what the symbols mean to them and others who try to assign evil connotations to everything. You really just have to seperate the wheat from the chaff, and only you can decide which is which for you.

That's one of the beauties of symbolism, IMO. It's different for everyone, to an extent. It's the intent behind the symbol that is important, not the symbol itself.

Take the swastika, for example. Before Hitler and the Nazis, the swastika was an altogether benevolent symbol.

Source
The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been found worldwide, but it is especially common in India. Its name comes the Sanskrit word svasti (sv = well; asti = is), meaning good fortune, luck and well-being.
The swastika is most commonly used as a charm to bring good fortune (in which case the arms are bent clockwise), but it has a variety of religious meanings as well.

The right-hand swastika is one of the 108 symbols of the god Vishnu as well as a symbol of the sun and of the sun god Surya. The symbol imitates in the rotation of its arms the course taken daily by the sun, which appears in the Northern Hemisphere to pass from east, then south, to west. (It is also a symbol of the sun among Native Americans.)

The left-hand swastika (called a sauvastika) usually represents the terrifying goddess Kali, night and magic. However, this form of the swastika is not "evil" and it is the form most commonly used in Buddhism.

So you see, sometimes symbols are not what they seem to those who guess at the meanings or go by the meanings others have ascribed to them. If a group uses a symbol, it stands to reason that the best way to find out what that symbol means to them is to ask them. Go straight to the source, if you will.

It also helps to research the symbol itself in its own context, i.e. in all its various uses. The 5-pointed star or pentagram is another example. Most people will tell you that the pentagram is a "Satanic" or otherwise "evil" symbol. I submit the following:

Source
During the times of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), the pentacle was the first and most important of the Seven Seals - an amulet whose seals represented the seven secret names of God. It was inscribed on King Solomon's ring, which is often called Solomon's Seal in error. Each point of the pentagram was also interpreted as referring to the five books of the Pentateuch - the first five books in the Hebrew Scriptures; the Torah.

[...]

In Christian times:
The five points of the pentagram have been interpreted as representing the five wounds of Christ (2 wrist, 2 ankle and 1 side).

The Roman Emperor Constantine used the pentagram in his seal and amulet. 14

It has been referred to as the Star of Bethlehem

It was used to symbolize the star which allegedly led three Zoroastrian astrologers to the baby Jesus; it was called the Three Kings' star.

This was all way, WAY before Anton LaVey.

Is there one source I can quote to you? No. You just have to dig and dig for yourself to find what you believe to be the truth. Take what Mr. Tsarion said that impressed you and delve deeper into it. You might be surprised what you'd learn.

the reason i would like you to watch the program is that i myself is in doubt i did go a little crazy in my last post admitted. now you ask wich symbology and i would start off with the skull and cross bones found on some of the orders, medals if youd like the reason why i told you if you knew the meaning of the symbology is that all the ranks medals ect is linked to royals IMO could be wrong it just terms like: the knight order or royal arch mason i think it was, becourse as you know the royals have been monarchs not very democratic IMO and a system using there terminology just makes me supicious IF you know what the royals represent in the old days..nothing good i would argue..

As far as I am aware, the "Royal" in Royal Arch is an allusion to Solomon, the King of Israel. Nothing to do with the petty squabbles of medieval feudal monarchies, nor present-day monarchies either. You have to be careful how you make your connections, and why.

thats why i REALLY would like you to watch it still even if you don't belive it all there must be something...

I'm sorry dude, maybe one of these days I'll get to see it. Right now it's just not feasible for me.

and as far as i know the original masons where callede stone masons becourse they where from normal mason people (working class) and today at least where i live you have to be rich in order to join wich i view as a step in the wrong direction there by making it a possebility that it could be infiltrated at some loges

Whoa, whoa, whoa. The "original" or "operative" Masons were indeed Stone Masons. They worked in stone, erecting buildings and such. They had lodges, or "guilds" to help to facilitate their work.

Given your comment I bet you would be surprised ot learn that probably 90% of Masons are "working class," myself included. If you had to be rich to join let me assure you I would not be a member.

There is something to be said about geography and local attitudes; after all, lodges are made up of local guys, but if you are truly interested I would say curb your intimidation and just go talk to them. I'd be willing to bet they would not turn you away based on anything to do with status.

As RWPBR said recently: "It's a character thing, not a class thing."

I don't get what you are saying about infiltration; could you elaborate?

but lets start with the skull and bones motive...

Well, you picked the most obvious and widely accepted symbol used in Masonry. It represents death, plain and simple. It reminds us that we all will die, and to live your life so as to be ready to go at any time, because we could go at any time. Man is frail and delicate and death is inevitable. The Skull and Crossbones reminds us as Masons to walk uprightly so that if your time comes you will have lived your life in such a way that you will not fear death. It is just another part of life.

after all much of the known knowlege today is gathered by top officials like aristrocrats who has connections hell just take the british cyclopidia Britanica and if someone disagree they are being accused as fruitcakes wierdos and anti goverment i just find it interesting if there is nothing to it why can't there be an open debate where people get a chance to defend themselves?

I'm sorry, what?

if you finally get to see their views on tv its put togehter so they look like loonies but if you have watched some programs like the michael tsarion and then see him on discovery scifi channel after you can see that he is being cut off...

I'm familiar with the tactic. That's pretty much what this thread was originally about, actually.

..here i go again sorry ahmm the skull and cross bones it was i will look at some more and come with more questions later.

Skull and crossbones, check. I'll be looking for your response.