Aurora is useless

According to the myth, Aurora is a high-speed (mach 6) reconnaissance plane but why would we waste all that fuel and money to get some pics and data when we have more than 30 spy satellites orbiting around the Earth? Satellites are much more reliable and can not be detected...

Originally posted by ludo182
According to the myth, Aurora is a high-speed (mach 6) reconnaissance plane but why would we waste all that fuel and money to get some pics and data when we have more than 30 spy satellites orbiting around the Earth? Satellites are much more reliable and can not be detected...

Aurora is not a myth its a rumor, and spy satellites arnt more reliable because they orbit, and its pretty easy to find out the flight pattern of something that orbits overhead, which gives them time to hide whatever they dont want prying eyes to see. Spy planes are better because they are faster and can get information a lot quicker, but not exactly cost efficient

Originally posted by Echotebarknwhale
Aurora is not a myth its a rumor, and spy satellites arnt more reliable because they orbit, and its pretty easy to find out the flight pattern of something that orbits overhead, which gives them time to hide whatever they dont want prying eyes to see. Spy planes are better because they are faster and can get information a lot quicker, but not exactly cost efficient

I couldnt have said it any better but I would have stressed 'timely' intel a bit more......Sats pass every few hours and they take fuel to move them into position and the fuel is limited. A fast higher flying plane can be there quicker and get there unexpected.

According to the myth, Aurora is a high-speed (mach 6) reconnaissance plane but why would we waste all that fuel and money to get some pics and data when we have more than 30 spy satellites orbiting around the Earth? Satellites are much more reliable and can not be detected...

As has been mentioned...there are pitfalls to satellite intel. Do you think Area 51 has tests when they know the Russian satellites are overhead? Nope. But, an undetectable plane on the otherhand..... Not to mention, there are weather conditions that can obscure sat pics that don't pose a problem for planes.

If Aurora was a go, I'd suspect it's likely not an issue anymore....unless used as a launching station for drones. UAVs can do the job without the risk, etc.

Well, satellites are in orbit and don't need fuel to make more rounds. If something is hidden from satellites, it is doubtful that a Mach 6 spy plane will get lucky and get something uncovered instead for the very few minutes (Mach 6 equals 2 km/s remember) that it passes over the target. I doubt a Mach 6 spy plane makes much military sense.

Originally posted by Gazrok

According to the myth, Aurora is a high-speed (mach 6) reconnaissance plane but why would we waste all that fuel and money to get some pics and data when we have more than 30 spy satellites orbiting around the Earth? Satellites are much more reliable and can not be detected...

As has been mentioned...there are pitfalls to satellite intel. Do you think Area 51 has tests when they know the Russian satellites are overhead? Nope. But, an undetectable plane on the otherhand..... Not to mention, there are weather conditions that can obscure sat pics that don't pose a problem for planes.

If Aurora was a go, I'd suspect it's likely not an issue anymore....unless used as a launching station for drones. UAVs can do the job without the risk, etc.

Aurora travels at an altitude of more than 30km (in the stratosphere), way above the clouds, so the weather conditions are a problem for Aurora too.

Aurora is a piece of crap as a lot of American projects. Honestly do you think that it's worth spending all that money in those projects? You'd better spend that money to curb on the number of poor people in the US, to have a better educational system ( in France we speak at least two languages and often 3, i doubt it's the same in the US)...

[edit on 6-8-2005 by ludo182]

Aurora is a piece of crap as a lot of American projects. Honestly do you think that it's worth spending all that money in those projects? You'd better spend that money to curb on the number of poor people in the US, to have a better educational system ( in France we speak at least two languages and often 3, i doubt it's the same in the US)...

I really don't think someone from France should be telling the US how to spend its money or take care of its people. The French should be more concerned about not letting their elderly citizens die by the THOUSANDS next time a heatwave comes along. Is it a French tradition to leave the elderly to fend for themselves? I suppose a lot of Americans would speak 3 languages if they had all that extra time saved from NOT bathing or not applying personal hygene products like most French do.

I love the fact that you call the Aurora "crap." Are you privy to some Top Secret information that we don't know about? I don't think there's even a confirmed picture of the Aurora, but for some odd reason Frenchy here knows it to be "crap." To call a lot of American projects crap is especially funny coming from a Frenchman, considering every piece of military equipment the US has is better and more advanced than anything in France. Speaking of crap... any Mirage's fall out of the sky lately?

But I'll make this bet... As soon as Americans become as wimpy as the French and we get 30 hour work weeks and endless vacation time, not to mention double digit unemployment rates, we'll start learning more foreign languages! If we do this, then you have to promise to start looking after your elderly citizens and not let them die of heat strokes.

And just a question... is it true that French tanks have 5 speed transmissions, all of which are in REVERSE???

haha. Rasputin, your sarcsam is priceless.

1)the heat wave killed 10 000 people according to the french media which likes to exagerate the figures, but those people who died would have died a fews months later anyway, they were weak and old.

2) French-bashing lol, the clichés about the French not having showers and stinking... didn't you know we all walk down the streets with bread ( baguette ) under the arm and we are very arrogant.

3) i'm not into that garbage of conspiracies and other black projects, i only know a few things about aurora.

4) the Mirage and the Rafale are very good planes. No doubt that in a aerial confronation between a mirage and a f-22, it's the pilots' skills that would make the difference and nothing else. Moreover for a small country like France to have such lethal weapons, in think it's fairly impressive.

5) it's 35 hours work weeks and this decision made by the left is being reconsidered by the right and was never really applied. Unemployment rate... ok he's big but we do have the best welfare on earth, in the US if you don't have the money you can't afford to go to the hospital and some people have a job but are extremely bad paid ( in the US), in France the minimum wage that you can earn for a month is 1025 euros.

6) French tanks? are youn talking about the "char Leclerc" , the best tank ever build, lol dude do you still have Abrams tank?



conclusion : what's the use of f-22 raptors, aurora,... to fight the mujahideens in Iraq and more generally in the war on terror? Wake up, i stand beside the US but you guys with all your technology are being defeated by farmers with Ak-47
, 12 people with cuters managed to knock you down and hit your symbols (military and economic).

You're no longer fighting the USSR

ludo, whats wrong with staying adhead from the rest of the world in military tech? Ture that F-22 are not going to be best used for blowing up tents but there are a lot of other countries the US have to worry about like China.

You know if we stopped giving our latest and greatest to the israelis and french we wouldn't have to spend nearly so much on new weapons development. I mean without the constant pressure of having our tech reverse engineered and sold to anyone and everyone who will pay it kind of forces us to keep forging ahead.
So rather than focussing on pithy anti french cliches I'll just say this. Self righteousness is only cute coming from people who don't activelly contribute to the problem to keep their stagnant economy limping along.

So you think every square inch of the planet is being watched by satellites? Do you think that every spy sat can see with the same resolution of a high flying aircraft? Do you think that spy satellites are moved and retasked willy nilly by low ranking people with a phone call from somebody whenever they want like in hollywood movies?

Some facts about orbital and atmospheric surveillance.

Spy sats have a very limited amount of propellent, which is mostly used for orientation and station keeping (that is maintaining orbital position). The order to actually move an orbit, or otherwise waste propellent is only done in extreme emergencies if at all. Now we still fly U-2's, RPV's and UAV's and other (possibly an Aurora) aircraft since they can be put into any position in the world very quickly. With an Aircraft you don't have to waste spy sat propellent, they can loiter over an area for much longer periods than a satellite, they are much less expensive AND many of the aircraft offer better resolution than a spy satellite parked 600-1200 miles up and taking pictures through the entire atmosphere relying on the sun to illuminate the target.

2) French-bashing lol, the clichés about the French not having showers and stinking... didn't you know we all walk down the streets with bread ( baguette ) under the arm and we are very arrogant.

That must be one stinky baguette! I guess from being in a French underarm it automatically becomes seasoned! I worked in Airport Security for a while (Post-9/11 so don't blame me for anything) and I had to get up-close and personal with many French tourists... and let me tell you... its NOT a myth. It was truly a nightmare. Their scent made me long for that of a soiled diaper.

But anyway, I'm glad we don't have the French with us in Iraq. Bringing the French along for a war is like bringing an accordian along for hunting. And despite what your Socialist, American-hating press tells you, we are not losing in Iraq. If you want to compare the number of fatalities between American troops and insurgents/terrorists, you'll see that we're mopping the floor with them. And we're the ones in uniforms! We're pretty easy to identify, unlike the cowards who hide amongst women and children and send the mentally retarded on suicide bombing missions.

Originally posted by Rasputin13
If you want to compare the number of fatalities between American troops and insurgents/terrorists, you'll see that we're mopping the floor with them.

Well, although the kill ratio is definitely in your favor, there are still coffins coming home as well as an endless supply of soldiers with amputated limbs, serious burn wounds, spinal and other injuries and mental issues.

Originally posted by Rasputin13
And we're the ones in uniforms! We're pretty easy to identify, unlike the cowards who hide amongst women and children and send the mentally retarded on suicide bombing missions.

Nice rethoric. Tell us again how much the French stink.

[edit on 7-8-2005 by Simon666]

That is the point, The USA doesnt even have satellites all over the planet, sometimes the weather or other elements can stop the satellites from working... And the poin is that the planet is moving, the satellites don't, so there will be places that are "unguarded"... And during war... What if an other nation destroys the satellites... The it would be really good to have a plane to take over that post... You should never rely on anything to much, not even satellites, Cos' they aren't fail safe either...

You cant detect something going as fast as a missle thats 200000feet up.
Also with satalites, its pretty hard to change orbit, unless you go verry far away from earth and then orbit with the location with the planets rotation.
Also can satalites see through cloud? I know planes can

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsSmarter
You cant detect something going as fast as a missle thats 200000feet up.

Then why do spy satellites even exist?

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsSmarter
Also can satalites see through cloud? I know planes can

Ordinary photographic intelligence satellites like the KH-12 can't see through clouds. Only radar waves of a certain wavelengths go through both clouds and the ionosphere, for infrared and visible going through clouds is already out of the question. There are apparently some of such radar satellites around, initially code named "Lacrosse".

www.fas.org...

[edit on 8-8-2005 by Simon666]

Alrighty then, please stop the blanket 'French bashing" on this thread. The topic is the Aurora not France.

And please no posts saying he started it etc. Lets just get back to the topic at hand.

A plane like the Aurora would give flexability. As it is pointed out above, the orbits of the KH and other spy birds are well known. A US CBG can stay hidden from the RORSATS that the Soviets put up. It has is its + and -.

SPy planes on the other hand have flexability as to route and time. Thier downside is that they can be shot down, or have a malfunction etc.

Originally posted by FredT
Alrighty then, please stop the blanket 'French bashing" on this thread. The topic is the Aurora not France.

And please no posts saying he started it etc. Lets just get back to the topic at hand.

A plane like the Aurora would give flexability. As it is pointed out above, the orbits of the KH and other spy birds are well known. A US CBG can stay hidden from the RORSATS that the Soviets put up. It has is its + and -.

SPy planes on the other hand have flexability as to route and time. Thier downside is that they can be shot down, or have a malfunction etc.

Satellites can also be shot down... and they can't even run awa/defend themselves...

Originally posted by FredT

A plane like the Aurora would give flexability. As it is pointed out above, the orbits of the KH and other spy birds are well known. A US CBG can stay hidden from the RORSATS that the Soviets put up. It has is its + and -.

SPy planes on the other hand have flexability as to route and time. Thier downside is that they can be shot down, or have a malfunction etc.

Well put. The thing is you can't really take a satellite out of orbit without special calculations or whatever. That means you gotta wait till something has the target within its swath, and by that time activities can be hidden. Things like the Aurora you can say "Go spy here" and it goes. And at mach 6, it don't take long to get in. And a comment for those who say "It'll get shot down by missiles"; How many missiles do YOU know of that can track and intercept a mobile target going at mach 6 at very high alititude?