TA-ORGANIZATIONS: Pakistani President to Expel 1,400 Religious Pupils

Breaking News out of Pakistan is stating that the President of Pakistan Pervez Musharraf has said that approximately 1,400 foreign students have to leave the country's religious schools. This is just one of a series of measures where General Musharraf is showing the world that he is indeed clamping down on fanatic extremist.



Well looks like the President of Pakistan is a man of his word and is cracking down on the organizations that train some of the fanatic terrorists of the world just as he said he would.

Pakistani security forces also had rounded up 600 suspected Islamic militants and clerics in a crackdown following the July 7 London terror attacks, earlier this month.

This is indeed very good news.



[edit on 7/29/2005 by shots]

And the fact that he himself is a military dictator escapes mention because he's tough on terror. I feel so safe now, lets have our own military dictators as well

Well 1400 potential terrorists done away with sure is a good start and you should feel somewhat safer. Keep in mind it has been said most of the terriorist that did their bad deeds in London were said to have trained there.

It seems like he is the only one really willing to fight terror at its lowest level? Dictator or not you have to admit he is not sitting back and doing nothing. Countries like Turkey. Afganastan and several African if not all African nations should be doing the very same as he is doing.

Hit terror where it hurts at the starting level, no schools with fanatic beliefs = no terrorists.









[edit on 7/29/2005 by shots]

I'd feel safer still with a duly elected Pakistani President without military aid from the United States government as well

Also he only expelled these foreign nationals. Do you really think they will just not go to other Madrassas? Do you think they'll just shrug their shoulders and say I cant be bothered finding another school? Its just shifted a problem, not remedied it.

Also Shots, only one of the London bombers attended a Madrassas in Pakistan, not all of them

[edit on 29/7/05 by subz]

Originally posted by subz
I'd feel safer still with a duly elected Pakistani President without military aid from the United States government as well

Also he only expelled these foreign nationals. Do you really think they will just not go to other Madrassas? Do you think they'll just shrug their shoulders and say I cant be bothered finding another school? Its just shifted a problem, not remedied it.

Look at it this way one less school for training of foriegn nationals from other countries is better then nothing, at least it is a start. The main reason I posted the story was to show that there was at least one who is willing to hit them where it hurts. It is also the reason I mentioned other countries doing the very same thing, hoping they might take his lead.

Also Shots, only one of the London bombers attended a Madrassas in Pakistan, not all of them

I realize that That is the reason I used the wording I did. As stated it was not a statement of fact it only suggested that all were trained there.
[edit on 29/7/05 by subz]

[edit on 7/29/2005 by shots]

But thats just the thing shots. Pervez Musharraf is being held up as something to emulate because of his stance on terrorists. Of course its easier to stomp on terrorists when you dont have to worry about an electorate or civil rights.

Do we really want to go down the dictatorship route? Yes of course it would be infinately easier to deal with terrorists if we did. But what exactly would we be protecting other than our lives?

Musharraf can use the very same powers to stiffle democratic reform in his country and there is nothing to stop him. Does the potential evils of oppressive regimes beholden to themselves with no compulsion to respect it citizens outweigh the fact he can lock up and kill at will? I dont think it does and its definately not a system we should hold up as a model.

[edit on 29/7/05 by subz]

Originally posted by subz
But thats just the thing shots. Pervez Musharraf is being held up as something to emulate because of his stance on terrorists. Of course its easier to stomp on terrorists when you dont have to worry about an electorate or civil rights.

At this time and age I am not worried so much about who he is or what kind of society he is ruling. What I like is the fact that he is expelling foriegn nationals who may have been taught to strike us here.

Do we really want to go down the dictatorship route? Yes of course it would be infinately easier to deal with terrorists if we did. But what exactly would we be protecting other than our lives?

Musharraf can use the very same powers to stiffle democratic reform in his country and there is nothing to stop him. Does the potential evils of oppressive regimes beholden to themselves with no compulsion to respect it citizens outweigh the fact he can lock up and kill at will? I dont think it does and its definately not a system we should hold up as a model.

[edit on 29/7/05 by subz]

I am not advocating a dictatorship route, I am simply stating I like what he is doing. As I have already stated something is better then nothing.

Also I have noticed that there seems to be some change in the way he is doing things like having females in the cabinet. again that is a step in the right direction. Will he ever change to a society like ours, who knows, maybe yes may be no, but that will not change the fact that he at least is doing something to stem the fanatic tide that seems to be expanding in the world.

All I am saying is others should follow his lead, no one is going to change the whole world to our ways, to think that is possible is only kidding ones self.

Shots, but he can only expell all those foreign nationals because he is a military dictator. Since when has coming to a country to learn religion been a crime? It wouldnt fly with British and Americans, there would be an uproar.

Also the current United States administration has been very forthright and candid about its views of dictatorships and non-democratic countries. Why has Musharraf (a nuclear armed dictator no less) slipped through the cracks and been not only allowed to keep his hold on power, but been actively rewarded with U.S military hardware and tax payers money. He's now being shown as some kind of beacon on how to deal with the war on terror. Its completely incongrous with Western ideals and his apparent successes in combating terrorism are nothing more than selective oppression.

Yeah it could shift the problem to Afghanistan or India or wherever. Big deal. He shouldnt be supported by the Americans and should be removed from power.

Good move by Musharraf.
He really does seem to try and help the west, actions like this threaten his islamic power base.

Dictator or not, he does seem to be doing some good work. More power to him. Cutting their supply of foreigners won't shut the determined fanatic out. But it will reduce the flow.

Ok how else can I explain my point? How about another similar example.

We invaded the Taliban's Afghanistan because of the Al Qaeda connection and the fact that they werent democratic and didnt respect civil rights. The Taliban also wiped out the worlds largest supply of opium poppies. Heroin from that country dropped to virtually nothing.

Now how many heroin related deaths are there in the World? More than from terrorist attacks that I can assure you! Also how much crime resulting from heroin comes about due to addiction?

We apparently couldnt safeguard all the benefits the Taliban provided the West with regards to almost destroying the World's heroin supply. If left to continue it would probably of saved hundreds of thousands of lives. But that didnt matter, they were not democratic and had to go.

Whats so special about terrorism? It threatens our lives? So does heroin, yet the prevention of that threat which results in many orders of magnitude more fatalities in the West came second place to the non-democratic nature of the Taliban.

If support of the Taliban was wrong then showing support for Musharraf, and his tactics, is wrong too.

[edit on 29/7/05 by subz]

Originally posted by subz
Shots, but he can only expell all those foreign nationals because he is a military dictator. Since when has coming to a country to learn religion been a crime? It wouldnt fly with British and Americans, there would be an uproar.

And there in lies the problem. Our free society is sometimes to free. No one allows any religion to sacrifice children so why should it be any different when it comes to a religion that teaches hate and ways to kill people? And just to make myself clear I am talking about America, Canada, England and free world countries, I realize some other countries will accept the killing of children whiles ours will not. The way you are making it sound is as though you condone the teaching of hate and that is wrong.

This not about teaching religion it is about teaching hate and I for one think something should be done about it and I do not care how, just as long as it gets done.

Not to mention the fact the US is selling Pakistan abunch of f15s, etc.. just after learning how Pakistan's Army went into the tribal regions seeking BinLaden and Friends earlier this year.

Dallas

shots, where was the evidence that these 1,400 foreigners were preaching hate? The only evidence provided by the state was that they were foreign and attending madrassas. That is arbitrary and summary judgment, it would rightly be against our laws.

Now if the state can provide evidence that they are learning hate through the madrassas then the preachers should be arrested and sentenced. That would happen in this country (UK) we have laws preventing such teachings. What Musharraf has done is wrong. It shows no respect for civil rights and coincidently does nothing to stop terrorism.

How many hate preaching immams were silenced with this explusion? Do you think their madrassas are empty now because of Musharraf's final solution? Wouldnt their still be thousands of Pakistani kids in these madrassas as we speak? Way to go Musharraf you did what exactly that we should copy and emulate?

Originally posted by subz
shots, where was the evidence that these 1,400 foreigners were preaching hate?

I never said they were preaching hate. As I understand it they were learning hate from the madrassas, that is what they do ya no.

That is arbitrary and summary judgment, it would rightly be against our laws.

our laws prohibit us from intervening with religion here in the US are yours different in the UK?

No news reports I have read have stated the UK is expelling fanatic preachers that is why I ask.

Not all madrassas preach hatred, that is a generalisation.

Also we havent expelled hate preachers, we've jailed them. Look up Abu Hamza.

We dont interfere in peoples religious convictions but we do legally draw the line at preaching hate.

Subz says: Not all madrassas preach hatred, that is a generalisation.

I realize that, but you seem to be missing my main point. What I am saying is I like what President Musharraf did and I hope others will follow his lead, I am not saying I like the man as an individual, I am simply stating I like this action and several other similar actions he has taken.

Musharraf also ordered his security forces to move against those leaders of militant organizations who preached Wahhabi hatred during public appearances. He stopped the dissemination of Wahhabi literature and videos promoting religious hatred at the same time. I like both of those actions too, but that does not mean I support his way of running his country, it simple means I like these particular actions he has taken because I see them as a step in the right direction. That is also the reason I would like others to follow his lead against anyone who teaches the Wahhabi version of Islam.

I also liked it when Gorbachev tore down the Berlin Wall, because I saw it as a step in the right direction. That does not mean I condoned communism does it? At the time the wall was torn down keep in mind communism was still active, yet it was a start in the right direction just as I see Musharrafs actions.

Perhaps it would have been better had I specifically stated I was talking about his actions against those that preach the Wahhabi form of the Islamic faith from the get go.


I doubt I can make it any clearer then that for you but I did try.


[edit on 7/30/2005 by shots]

Shots I got what you meant from your first post. If I have any criticisms of what you wrote it wouldnt be that they were not clear

My points, which runs contrary to yours, are that Musharrafs actions do not prevent terrorism and he can only carry those specific actions out because he is a military dictator.

Which means that 1) I think his specific actions are useless and heavy handed and 2) We wouldnt be able to implement them in our Western societies, even if they did work, because we do not allow summary and arbitrary judgments.

I dont think im going to change your opinions on the matter, and nor you mine. Thanks for the discourse, I do enjoy thrashing things out with you

Originally posted by subz
My points, which runs contrary to yours, are that Musharrafs actions do not prevent terrorism and he can only carry those specific actions out because he is a military dictator.

Which means that 1) I think his specific actions are useless and heavy handed and 2) We wouldnt be able to implement them in our Western societies, even if they did work, because we do not allow summary and arbitrary judgments.

I dont think im going to change your opinions on the matter, and nor you mine. Thanks for the discourse, I do enjoy thrashing things out with you

No problemo; I guess we will have to agree that we disagree on this point just as I disagree with your assement on what France did. I see both as steps in the right direction while you do not.

Nothing wrong with a slight differance of oppion from time to time and only time will tell who is right or who was wrong.

As I once stated before, I'll say it in this particular thread:

as posted by seekerof
Lip service.

It is a token effort by Musharraf.
His position as the leader of Pakistan is tenuous at best.
I doubt he will have the ability to enforce this to the point of really making any type significant difference.

Pakistan orders foreigners to leave madrassas

And here you go...the latest from Pakistan on this move:

Pak flip-flops on madrassa students

Again, time will only tell, but it is more and more becoming apparent that Musharraf is simply giving more lip service. As a man caught between two sides and having to appease both, it would be expected?




seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
As I once stated before, I'll say it in this particular thread:
as posted by seekerof
Lip service.


And here you go...the latest from Pakistan on this move:

Pak flip-flops on madrassa students

Again, time will only tell, but it is more and more becoming apparent that Musharraf is simply giving more lip service. As a man caught between two sides and having to appease both, it would be expected?


seekerof

The title Pak Flip flops on madrass students is very misleading. Nowhere in the article does it state they have changed anything at this time. All it shows is some officials plan of fighting it. Most students according to the article indicate they will have to leave or are planning to leave.

[edit on 8/2/2005 by shots]