New "Confirmation" and "Corroboration" of the Meier HOAX

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
In light of the above and the fact that Billy Meier and his supporters have no photographs of physical aliens that Meier is purportedly in contact with[edit on 28-7-2005 by Paul_Richard]

Well they do have pictures of "Asket", however she turned out to be a performer photographed off the TV (with the resolution lines visible in the photo).

jritzmann,

We both know that that doesn't take the place of posting photographs of the physical aliens that Billy Meier purportedly is in communication.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
jritzmann,

We both know that that doesn't take the place of posting photographs of the physical aliens that Billy Meier purportedly is in communication.

I'm sorry I dont follow ya boss.

What I refer to is Meier's photos of "Asket", a blonde girl who he claimed was a "pleadian". She was later discovered after many many years to be a performer photographed off the television set picture (from the Dean Martin Show as I recall).

No, it doesnt take the place of him showing pictures of what beings he's in contact with, but for years until til he was found out, he firmly stated it was one of his contacts from the stars in effort to substanciate his claims.

After that, Meier's camp reported that he'd been told the "Men in Black" replaced the original picture of Asket with a "double"...and had been told this before by the Pleadians, they just thought he always knew.

No matter how this thing unfolds, there's always gonna be an excuse.

Michael... interesting that this has re-surfaced. I became 'involved' at about the same time you did. I was disheartened when claims of fraud began to surface as it seemed the whole thing was legitimate. Ground-Zero asked you to comment on some of the most egrigious fraud allegations which you appear to have overlooked. Certainly if ANY of the allegations listed by Underground Video are true then the fraud charge will be indefensible. Can you respond?

Ah yes. In order of appearance:

1. Obtain a copy of the Message From The Pleiades Vo. 1, 2, 3, and/or 4.
Obtain a copy of And Yet They Fly! and a copy of And Still They Fly!
ALL of these books have specific information published within them before the events occurred.

2. Here's another inaccurate statement offered to try to refute accurate ones, i.e "predicting probable events". First, if the events, ALL the dozens and dozens of events about which you obviously are unaware, were so "probable" why didn't someone like you (let alone a bunch of someones) predict them? IF the author of the statement troubled himself to research all the available English language material he would see that Meier has a very large amount of very specific - and not "probable" - propheices and predictions that at least I haven't found anywhere else. And I have at my disposal something Meier didn't, the internet. That one won't fly so, unless you can prove it, it's your theory that's simply speculation - not Meier's information.

3. A rather funny bit of reasoning here, i.e. it's "immediately suspect" that someone who, for some strange reason, simply wasn't involved in the original six-year investigation can't get his "hands on" originals. The author should trouble himself to read the photo analysis document on my site, which is only a small portion of the original investgative report, and he should demonstrate his expertise by informing us of where the investigators and the experts involved in the analysis went wrong.

He should also note that Wally Gentleman, the special effects expert for Kubrick's "2001" disagreed with him. As did people like Mars Mission's Michael Malin, JPL's Robert Post, physicist David Froning and, more recently, the Academy Award-winning company that did the special effects for "Independence Day".

He should familiarize himslef with the challenge that CFI-West accepted in 2001 to duplicate just ONE of Meier's more than 1,200 photos and ONE of his 8mm films. It took them four years to come up with six photos - that they then publicly refused to have tested to the same standards that established the authenticity of Meier's. CFI-West, of course, never came up with their promised film. The author should go ahead and take his photos (and movie film) with the same known camera, film and conditions as Meier's and then submit them to the same analysis. He should also really educate himself on an investigation that long, long ago ruled out models, photo montage, special effects, etc., all of which were unavailable to Meier at the time, as resources or skills, and no colloborators or financial trail has ever been found.

And while Jeff here attempts to dismiss Jim Diletosso and his work, it seemed to be just fine, along with all the other personal and equipment, for Lt. Col. Wendelle Stevens, USAF (Ret.), who has been studying aerial phenomena since 1947 and is generally recognized as the leading authority in the field. Read some of Diletosso's comments for yourself:

www.tjresearch.info...

Further, Jeff can always download the sounds of the UFO for free (as can anyone) and duplicate them as per info to be found in the sound analysis. He can also attempt to duplicate the stunning video on my DVD where Meier zooms some 300'-400' across an open field in broad daylight to a close up on a 14' craft hovering in front of a tree. Photo montage? I don't think so.

While Jeff is preparing to do all that, he and everyone else can familiarize themselves with the additional researach done by James Deardorff at:

www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...

Last but not least, Jeff can begin to put together a qualified, credentialed new investigative team for the new physical evidence (see link from my June Newsletter for photographs).

Maybe after all this we will have both less sour grapes and bad "whine".

4. The lack of logic and the imposition of unproven beliefs, the deliberate ignoring of what Meier does have (1,200 photos, eight films, a video, sound recordings, metal samples, new physical evidence, etc.) makes it unnecessary to further respon to this post.

Again, while people are quick to float their own wild, unproven theories and make completely unsubstantiated claims, let's go back to the facts, logic and a little thing like the Swiss military's own report of 236 UFO radar sightings right above where Meier has his contacts just to clear our heads. It would also really behoove the armchair experts to arrange to visit the center in Switzerland and to visit the locations where Meier shot his pictures and films, as well as to meet many of the witnesses - and OTHER PHOTOGRAPHERS - who are still to be found there.

It would also be interesting if anyone can tell me of another (still ongoing, decades long) UFO contact case and show me the evidence and proof for it. By the standards set by the Meier case one can hardly say "UFO case" about any other event in the same breath. And, while people often dismiss it too easily, please remember that we're talking about a man who first shot UFO photos in 1964 in India and then, after he lost his arm, the quality, quantity and variety of his physical evidence increased exponentially in the following years - a rather unprecedented productivity curve in light of someone becoming handicapped and considering ALL other factors in the man's life, including the hand typed 25,000 pages of information, most of which is still in German.

Looks like I missed a couple so:

5. Regarding the questionable photos in the case, probably less than a dozen out of 1,200 that I am aware of. I found it bordering on the comical that people will create their own convoluted theories and "explanations" but want to skewer Meier for his explanations that some of his evidence was tampered with by parties who had access to the films (they were ALL sent to local processing labs, Meier never developed ANY of them). Real life is a bit different than the nice, tidy little ideas we have of it. If Meier can be the target of 21 (documented) assassination attempts, which there's no doubt that he has been, is it really outside of consideration that dedicated parties would work hard to discredit him. Put it all in the balance when considering the case.

6. What we both SHOULD know is that simply posting a photograph of another human being in a space suit doen't prove anything - as the two partial shots of one of the aliens in a gold metallic space suit (in both editions of "...They Fly") will attest. Can't you just hear it now? "Well, that doesn't MEAN that they're aliens, after all, blah, blah, blah, etc."

7. And now, a moment for the cheap shot, unsubstantiated charcter assassination that I hope most of you will recognize for the jealousy and spitefulness behind it, "but for years until til he was found out..." Really? Found out by whom, Phobol Cheng, retired UN diplomat who came forward to corroborate Meier's claims of meeting with an ET woman? Go ahead, put her into your sights for character assassination and don't bother to substantiate it either.

8. Regarding Underground Video, I thiink that the way it still works here (with the exception of everything that's been gutted by the Bush administration) is that the burden of proof is on the accusser (soemthing to remember on this board too). And, since the coward(s) behind the threatened lawsuit never actually filed one, there's nothing to defend.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
jritzmann,

We both know that that doesn't take the place of posting photographs of the physical aliens that Billy Meier purportedly is in communication.

Originally posted by jritzmann
No, it doesnt take the place of him showing pictures of what beings he's in contact with, but for years until til he was found out, he firmly stated it was one of his contacts from the stars in effort to substanciate his claims.

After that, Meier's camp reported that he'd been told the "Men in Black" replaced the original picture of Asket with a "double"...and had been told this before by the Pleadians, they just thought he always knew.

It is good that you explained that more in detail.

Originally posted by jritzmann
No matter how this thing unfolds, there's always gonna be an excuse.

That indeed may be the case.

[edit on 28-7-2005 by Paul_Richard]

I don't think anyone meant to raise your hackles, Michael. And yes, the burden of proof does rest with the accusers. I know (from my sources close to the investigation in the early years) that boxes of Billy's pictures were left open and accessible to large numbers of his informal houseguests and that many, many materials were taken and others conceivably planted. Still, as scurrilous as some of the allegations have been, they do need to be addressed --- as dispassionately as possible. Look at what is at stake here. The stated/apparent accuracy and vastness of the predictions is unprecedented. There remains hundreds (thousands?) of pages of material yet to be translated and made available that could contain information of the utmost importance. People cannot be blamed for being skeptical. Look at how often bogus stories appear. Nevermind the source or intent of these stories, the inevitable outcome is the same. We're numbed and become skeptical. I think it's safe to say that almost anyone on this board would be ecstatic if a bona fide case of contact was offered-up. Let alone one with such a huge amount of actionable information associated with it.

Originally posted by 8Michael12

2. Here's another inaccurate statement offered to try to refute accurate ones, i.e "predicting probable events". First, if the events, ALL the dozens and dozens of events about which you obviously are unaware, were so "probable" why didn't someone like you (let alone a bunch of someones) predict them? IF the author of the statement troubled himself to research all the available English language material he would see that Meier has a very large amount of very specific - and not "probable" - propheices and predictions that at least I haven't found anywhere else. And I have at my disposal something Meier didn't, the internet. That one won't fly so, unless you can prove it, it's your theory that's simply speculation - not Meier's information.

Your argument is pure semantics.

My argument WAS NOT that Billy Meier didn't have specific predictions that came true. My argument was and is that having a Gift of Prophecy DOES NOT provide evidence that one is in contact with physical extraterrestrials, but it does provide evidence that one is a MEDIUM or CHANNELER of Spirits

A lack of actual photographs of the purported aliens or Pleiadians that Billy Meier communicates with only serves to confirm that he is a MEDIUM and not a CONTACTEE.

Hey, I can go out and spend days, weeks, even years slowly collecting good pictures of UFOs (Zetan spacecraft), do some psychic readings about the future, and then claim that I am in contact with the occupants of the craft that I have pictures of, and that they gave me prophecy about the future.

Any and all accuracy that I may have with those psychic readings about the future DOES NOT confirm or prove that I am in contact with physical aliens. It only serves to prove or disprove that I have a Gift of Prophecy

www.geocities.com...

"Along with Underground Video's statement is a photograph showing one of Billy Meiers alleged Pleiadian beamships taken in 1981. After computer enhancement and careful scrutiny, it has been shown the Beamship is really a miniature model made out of an upside-down cake pan, disconnected copper hose fitting, a bracelet, carpet tacks and various other identifiable objects."

ouch !


"There is not one example of an original, first generation Billy Meier photograph"


can that be true ? all of his pictures are pictures of pictures ?

"The Meier photograph of the beautiful Pleiadian alien, Semjase, turned out to be a photocopy of a model from a Sears Catalog. Another one of Meier's photographs, where he allegedly traveled into the future aboard a Pleiadian Beamship to photograph the aftermath of a 9.0 earthquake in San Francisco showing the toppled Trans-America building, turned out to be a realistic looking painting from a geology magazine article about earthquakes."

yowza

"To top it off, a reporter found a bunch of miniature models exactly matching many of the Pleiadian ships shown in his photos. His ex-wife has come out to denounce him as a fraud as well"

thats gonna leave a mark

It's nice to see you back Michael...despite many of us disagreeing on Meier, hehe...

Anyhoo, here's a long thread in which both supporters and skeptics have hashed it out here on ATS...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'd highly recommend it for anyone new to the Meier case, as both camps did an excellent job in presenting their evidence either for or against their case.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
www.geocities.com...

"There is not one example of an original, first generation Billy Meier photograph"

"The Meier photograph of the beautiful Pleiadian alien, Semjase, turned out to be a photocopy of a model from a Sears Catalog. Another one of Meier's photographs, where he allegedly traveled into the future aboard a Pleiadian Beamship to photograph the aftermath of a 9.0 earthquake in San Francisco showing the toppled Trans-America building, turned out to be a realistic looking painting from a geology magazine article about earthquakes."

As I stated, a lack of genuine alien photographs (and an assortment of channeled illustrations of aliens) only serves to confirm that Billy Meier is a medium and not a contactee

1,200 in amount does not make a case authentic as an unknown.

There are also many, many questions yet to be answered on the original investigation.

Bruce Maccabee has concretely proven one of Meier's most famous films to be nothing but a tethered model, it's available at his site.

It seems in reading the partial report, that most often the tests (which I find questionable anyway) were for negative manipulation, and other cam trickery...not models. It's reported that a model was made by investigators and shot at the same site and that proved that it wasnt a model. It of course doesnt, only that the knack for forced perspective shots and focus adjustment wasnt done the same as Meier's. Dilettoso even admits large portions of the testing dont count out small models.

Most of those often listed as "verifying" the photos do not say they are real, but "if real" etc. Thats not a rock solid endorsement for them being real.

As far as the sound recordings, I have taken said sample to some sound engineers I work with quite often. 2 out of the 3 said they believe it to be a delay/echo 1960's tape delay in feedback. However, with the incredible amout of variables in such a device's output, it would take quite some time to find the correct setting to achieve a near identical sound. The devices used (including the microphone), the settings of the delay device, the output speaker, and the distance of the mic to the output source all would have to be known to produce the effect. All of these are unknowns. Sound has an exceptional amount of variables such as this...and is very difficult to pin down to make an exact duplicate. I'm not surprised it hasnt been duplicated, as it's almost like looking for a needle in a haystack. I'm sure thats something the sound report didnt mention that the sound engineers most likely knew already. I personally had an old tape delay that would produce very similar sounds, and I recognized it almost immediately.

The metal sample has been "lost" or "stolen" like all the negatives, and original prints. If these original researchers were so on top of their game, these originals would have been like gold...*no way* would anyone in the gravity of such as case be so careless as to lose such data. I dont buy it for a second. It's claimed that there are more metal samples...but they have been not been forthcoming.

My opinion? Anyone with a nominal level of optics knowledge can figure out the photos with Photoshop and basic data of the camera Meier used (if that data is even true).

But dont ever expect to get copies of original negatives, nor pictures. Horn can make excuse after excuse, but with the claims he touts of this case, that information should be available. Thats it. Period. But it isnt.

And yes, that makes one very suspicious, and rightly so.

Duplicate the pictures? While it proves nothing, it's definitely do-able.






With the attachment focus set near infinity, that disc isnt more then 2-3 feet away in either of those shots.

I dont blame Mike for leading people more towards the writing, as I have read some myself lately. While I personally believe it does not come from any aliens, and I dont buy into Meier one little bit, there's alot of wisdom in his words....notice I say HIS words, because I believe he, not pleadians wrote them (or dictated).

He's a smart man, a rather worldly man who at times preaches alot of peace and love stuff...and I dont care who that comes from, we need all of that we can get. I dont really believe it all, and not in the least the "prophetic" stuff. But the idea of changing the way the world is going by realizing how stupid war is, and trying to realize how important each of us is? Thats not bad advice...now is it.

Such is religion. And thats what I tend to believe Meier tried and somewhat succeeded in doing.

I'm all for peace, and love, but dont sell it to me in a model flying saucer.







[edit on 28-7-2005 by jritzmann]

You have voted jritzmann for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.



that last line is a beauty !!!!!

"I'm all for peace, and love, but dont sell it to me in a model flying saucer."

The Meier photograph of the beautiful Pleiadian alien, Semjase, turned out to be a photocopy of a model from a Sears Catalog. Another one of Meier's photographs, where he allegedly traveled into the future aboard a Pleiadian Beamship to photograph the aftermath of a 9.0 earthquake in San Francisco showing the toppled Trans-America building, turned out to be a realistic looking painting from a geology magazine article about earthquakes. On top of these damning examples, every single one of Billy Meier's photographs of Pleiadian ships have been shown to be of third, fourth and even fifth generation(photographs of photographs) This means the he likely airbrushed suspension wires and other signs of fraud. There is not one example of an original, first generation Billy Meier photograph.

Linked from Billy Meier Hoax, on the first page of this thread....

Well, there’s always Billy’s “Eye of God” photo….



Or perhaps pics of Billy’s “ray gun”…





Or these convincing Meier UFO pics?







Or one of my favorites, as you can see one of the pieces fell off…
Seems the Pleidian version of NASA also has its problems!



Bruce McAbbee’s analysis of the film…
brumac.8k.com...

Asket and Nera, hoaxed pictures of an old Mike Douglas show, with the Meier Camp claiming the pics as stolen and altered by the Swiss MIBs…



But of course, people are certainly willing and able to believe what they wish….I just can’t do it…not for this case. On another note, if I haven’t mentioned it yet, The Meier camp has not provided the negatives for testing, just prints. Without the Negatives, scientific testing of the photos is completely impossible to any kind of Believable extent. The company challenged believe they did reproduce the pics, despite The lack of negatives, and just multi generation pics…

www.iigwest.com...

As for the photo analyst stating their authenticity, here’s a bit about him…

www.aliensonearth.com...


[edit on 28-7-2005 by Gazrok]

For the most part I will leave the skeptics to be skeptical but I'll add a few comments. On the two photos of models offered here, should they be subjected to the same tests Meier's were, the difference would show Meier's photos were of large (21') craft and not small models. And yes, the investigators had models built for photo-comparison purposes but the critic quick to claim that models were discovered, etc. didn't trouble himself to find that out. Of course not. He grabbed at a little detail in a rush to "debunk" the case...not knowing the entire story, naturally. Truth isn't what's important, or he would have really asked the question o, better yet, done some homework.

However, I also hear a deafening silence regarding Deardorff's analysis of the photos, I notice a similar lack of interest in commenting on, and/or obtaining, the video and for the most part I also see a remarkable demonstration of "thinking" that I somehow conceive has never been applied by said posters in considering such things as political candiadtes, or specific issues on which they have voted. Pure speculation, I admit but I wonder if the same erzatz scrutiny had been applied by Americans in deciding on their leaders, at all levels, if their leaders had applied the same scrutiny in taking the country into an illegitimate war, etc. Somehow...I doubt it.

But back to the points at hand. We get references to Bruce Macabee, who I guess we should BELIEVE because he supports our fear and doubt based skepticism, but why no mention of:

From page 9 of the accompanying Photographic Analysis document, regarding the film clips seen above, "In the 18 March sequence Meier filmed the spacecraft circling a large tree in front of a farmhouse. The sky was overcast with a low ceiling, and occasionally light snowflakes fell. The motion of the spacecraft looks suspiciously like it is tethered from above as it appears to circle the tree and then to swing back and forth over the tree, except that on three occasions the spacecraft changes its motion abruptly with no change in the tilt of the vertical axis of the ship. If it was in fact tethered, one would expect the vertical axis to tilt as the tether point above was moved. In another measurement it was found that the tilt angle of the vertical axis in one oscillation sequence was sufficient that the axis crossed within the frame and would have put the tether point within the picture. No tether point source was revealed, in one of the final oscillation sequences the object appeared to pass directly over the top of the tree, and it is clearly seen that the tree was swept over in the direction of the spacecraft, or appeared to follow the spacecraft as it passed. Clearly no model could have produced this effect. When we revisited the scene we found that the tree had died and was cut down."

Perhaps the most important thing anyone here could do is to ask themselves the simple question, "What if I'm wrong?" And then follow up with things like, "What would it mean to me personally if the case is real and true? What would I have to lose, what would I have to gain?"

The truth of the matter is that the abundance of evidence of every category in the case leads a reasoning, logical person with common sense to rule out a hoax. Scientific experts who viewed the case already have. The Swiss military is picking the objects up on radar, etc., etc. ad nauseum. Trust me, NONE of this will matter for those whose miinds really are made up against the case, for whatever their "reasons". And, sorry to say it but Americans have a uniquely difficult time putting two and two together, especially in controversial matters, witness the acquittal of celebrity murderers and serial child molesters, let alone political matters. Do the skeptics here really think that they're any different?

And someone who keeps repeating nonsense as fact, i.e. "channeling spirits" has to be simply disregarded as making a serious contribution to the discussion. When one cites make believe but dismisses scientific evidence there's no point in debating. As far as serious challenges from Underground Video, please don't quote unsubstantiated charges referring to non-existing, unsubstantiated evidence. Don't you think that if there was anything to it THEY WOULD HAVE SUED?

There is a theme that runs throughout much of the material from both the Plejaren and Meier, too distinctly different authorships, more when you consider the individual Plejaren who've interacted with him. It is quite simply that humanity, unfortunately, must be approached from the most oblique angle and patiently, painstakingly given the bits and pieces to chew on because our collective level of arrogant ignorance is so monumental as to make direct contact virtually impossible. No offense meant but view the repititious demands for more/better "proof", etc. here in the light of the case being true, do it for just one moment as an exercise in objectivity and plain absurdity, as the armchair experts of the world firmly conclude something isn't so, and the real, living participants simply have to stand by and watch as our illogic and lack of common sense guides us right down into the toilet that they've been trying, for decades, to help us avert...if only we weren't such know-it-alls.

Photos, films, metals, sounds are analyzed by competent, objective experts and...it's not good enough because...I wasn't there and I,I,I,I, have a theory and I,I,I,I, have time on my hands and I,I,I,I, can sit on my butt and "prove" it's just a hoax. Really? Go walk your butts around the hillsides, roads and mountains that a one-armed man traversed, often in the dead of winter, on a Moped, driving with one hand, given a camera loaded with film BY THE INVESTIGATORS, a man who returned a couple of hours later with a full roll of shots...of MULTIPLE UFOs IN SEQUENCE moving across the sky.

And I'm supposed to keep a straight face when someone here says "photo montage" and "models"? And likewise when they say that they "could" duplicate the sounds but, for some unknown reason haven't and that they don't seem to understand that some 15 witnesses were present OUTDOORS for the FOUR different occasions when the sounds were recorded, this is to be taken seriously? Sure, because I,I,I,I, have a theory and I,I,I,I, have time on my hands and I,I,I,I, have spent at least a couple of hours looking at the years of work, research, etc. by numerous qualified, serious investigators.

Of all the things that boggle the mind it's the lack of reasoning and responsiveness to the specifics of the investigation and research, again, such as Deardorff's on photos and films, even to the degree of having two forestry experts identify as a full grown, mature tree the one in the SEQUENCE shots that Meier took.

Why no mention of the seven-fingered hand/fingerprints still etched into the surface of the car hood? Are people too lazy, too uninterested, to book themselves a ticket to Switzerland to go check it out? Is it too inconvenient for the armchair experts?

There's such a thing as intellectual honesty. When you research and question and delve into a complex, hugely supported case like this, you can't come at it assuming everything's true or not true. And if your "thinking" doesn't jibe with qualified expert examination (are you ready yet to attack Malin, Post, Vogel, Froning, Rognerud, Ambrose, USGS, Nippon TV to demonstrate your "expertise"?) maybe, just maybe you don't have it right, hard to accept as that may be.

Lurking underneath a lot of this are the beliefs that I,I,I,I, am the one who should have had the contacts, that I,I,I,I, am the one who should have been chosen to do the research (on what grounds?) that unless it happened to me and I,I,I,I, was there and, etc. etc. well then, like THE REST OF THE ENTIRETY OF HUMAN HISTORY AND SCIENTIFIC FACT IT SIMPLY DIDN'T HAPPEN AND ISN'T TRUE BECAUSE I,I,I,I, AM NOT AT THE CENTER OF IT.

And isn't it all the more frustrating that a "simple one-armed farmer" is indeed at the center of all of this instead of you? Is that why such varied and stellar abilities in diverse sciences and skills are attributed to him, is that why he's effectively credited with fooling scientific experts - and radar equipment for chrissakes! - and conducting an impenetrable 63-year long hoax, is that why he's shot at, accussed of being a liar by fools who've never as much as said hello to the man, etc.?

As I said, intellectual honesty is in short supply...along with logic reasoning and common sense.

And yes, the investigators had models built for photo-comparison purposes but the critic quick to claim that models were discovered, etc. didn't trouble himself to find that out. Of course not. He grabbed at a little detail in a rush to "debunk" the case...not knowing the entire story, naturally. Truth isn't what's important, or he would have really asked the question o, better yet, done some homework.

I should mention that the "models discovery" is largely claimed by Kal Korf, whom most of us probably really don't take very seriously, so I didn't include that in my citation. I take anything Kal says with a teaspoon (not a grain) of salt. So, no need to really defend that accusation...in my opinion, hehe....

While some prophecies have been pointed out here, there are many other prophecies which didn't come true (or even close to true), but DID fit the perceptions of the time....just like many self-proclaimed prophets. You can see these in the main thread I linked to above, as we first start debating the prophecies...

As you stated though, you do not need to defend old evidence if you don't wish to, but I wanted to be sure our members who may be new to this case were aware of some of what's been said by both camps.

And isn't it all the more frustrating that a "simple one-armed farmer" is indeed at the center of all of this instead of you?

Not at all. The frustrating part is if these aliens are SO concerned for our welfare, then why have they contacted just one man for decades, as it's obvious their message is falling on many deaf ears....and all of this, when a simple landing on the White House lawn would quickly and soundly accomplish the mission? The aliens' logic is the frustrating part. Equally frustrating is how a man who seems capable of taking so many photographs of UFOs (obviously travelling often with a camer), can fail to capture any pics of the inside of the craft, or the aliens themselves (apart from hidden people in laughable silvery or gold jumpsuits, reminiscient of old cheesy sci-fi movies), or Sears catalog models, talk show guests..., and yet manage to get elusive photos such as of the "eye of God"... Yes, THAT is rather frustrating....

[edit on 28-7-2005 by Gazrok]

I'm getting a little tired of the "simple one armed farmer" thing. Meier is far from simple, he's a studied man, who's traveled to different cultures (on planet) and clearly examined them and their beliefs.

People paint masterpieces with their toes, Jeff Healy plays guitar like a God and he's blind as a bat (on his lap with two hands), so forget the bullcrap notion that he's so damned disabled. I've seen him put that camera on a tripod with whats left of an arm and his good arm. He's capable, and it's seen on tape, so drop it.

I dont put much stock in Deardorff's "analysis" because he's not an imaging professional, he's a smart cookie, but he also puts forth the idea that bull-hockey pictures could be real because "aliens" want to give skeptics a "way out"...aliens make themselves look like a hoax in other words. In his line of thinking, we are truly lost in this field. As every hoaxed picture could represent a real event...the "aliens" (insert scary music here) want some of us to believe said event is a hoax....so they insert the earmarks of a hoax. But, those who wish to believe can truly see.

He calls it "plausible deniablity".

I call it an easy way out.

So, if you expect us to take someone with that line of thinking, and to boot not being a professional in imaging or video and film production, with any objectivity...at least in my case you can forget it.

As in prior posts and years, you dont refer to pinpoint questions, but keep pushing "armchair expert" comments and insults to people you know nothing about.

Originally posted by 8Michael12

And someone who keeps repeating nonsense as fact, i.e. "channeling spirits" has to be simply disregarded as making a serious contribution to the discussion.

Getting a little hot in here for you Michael?

Originally posted by 8Michael12
When one cites make believe but dismisses scientific evidence there's no point in debating.

What scientific evidence are you referring to? Your "scientific evidence" is scant at best. You have a bunch of very bad pictures that you provide as proof that Billy Meier is in contact with physical aliens, most of which are torn to shreds when placed under close observation -- like those posted in this thread by Gazrok.

Originally posted by 8Michael12
As far as serious challenges from Underground Video, please don't quote unsubstantiated charges referring to non-existing, unsubstantiated evidence. Don't you think that if there was anything to it THEY WOULD HAVE SUED?

It sure looks like a lawsuit is in the works:

Consumer Class Action Suit

Are you implying that this suit is a hoax to discredit you and Billy Meier?

Now, regarding your channeling comment, what scientific evidence do you have that there is any connection whatsoever that predicting the future has anything to do with physical aliens? Or is that an issue that you also wish to dodge?

How does predicting the future prove contact with physical aliens when you cannot provide reliable photographs of those aliens that Meier supposedly is in communication?

There is an abundance of New Age, angel, and metaphysical sites on the Net that provide predictions about the future. How does Billy Meier predicting the future provide scientific evidence that he is a contactee and not just another New Age medium promoting another New Age religion?

Originally posted by 8Michael12
As I said, intellectual honesty is in short supply...along with logic reasoning and common sense.

Part of this discussion is to determine YOUR intellectual honesty, as well as that of Billy Meier.

[edit on 28-7-2005 by Paul_Richard]

omfg those pics of the laser gun with the guys in the shiny suits might be the funniest things i've ever seen on the net.
I laughed so hard I hard trouble catching my breath. I really needed that, thanks gaz