A oxymoron in action

The goal of the modern day christian evangelical order is to convert the world to christianity. Not the world, maybe--but every one that hears a sermon today is 'invited to accept Christ.' This is not a bad thing, except for maybe the fact that the collection place always gets passed before that, and the invite comes at the end, when everyone's ready to get home and eat.

I digress. Anyway, this goal of conversion occurs in various ways, handing out bibles, missionaries, and revivals, etc. Various websites representing groups devoted to this goal have statistics on-line concerning the amount of souls 'they have gotten'--how many have been converted (and the methods of this even vary in our present times--some baptize, some don't).

For example, I saw one which was based in Korea--it stated that so far, 25% of the population had been converted, and their goal was 75%.

BUT

Does not the book of Revelation say that in the end, it will turn out that everyone on the earth worshipped the image of the beast, except for the remnant whom God sealed in their foreheads?

Is not the predominant cry of the current world ministry about the 'end-times' imminently approaching?

What is wrong with this picture? Or is it just me?

What's really self-contradictory about "saving souls" & "converting" other people is that this is the very same religion that states that Christ died for everybody, not just Christians...


The Christian missionaries pulled something like this on the Keltoi (Celts): The Keltoi had originally believed that the burial mounds contained the spirits of their ancestors (They told of the "Race of Fae" who were the "Mound Dwellers"). The missionaries told the Keltoi that their spirits were trapped to an Earthly existance because they weren't evil enough to be consigned to Hell, but had never learned of Christ & were denied entry to Heaven.

It really sucked to be Keltoi during those times...


[edit on 25-7-2005 by MidnightDStroyer]

Christ died for everybody, but you have to accet that otherwhise why would you be taken to Heaven if you didnt believe in Jesus and follow his teachings.. ???

Thats Biblically speaking...

About the saving souls post, what gets me is ..." How many sould we got "... that sounds soooo creppy, and its also a manifestation of pryde and vanity which are suppose to be sins...

We dont get souls...God does....all man can do is tell people about the Bible... than its up to those people and God to figure it out ... not anyone else ...

The 'souls gotten' came from the book of Genesis--when Abram and Sarai left Haran. 12:5

Originally posted by queenannie38
The goal of the modern day christian evangelical order is to convert the world to christianity. Not the world, maybe--but every one that hears a sermon today is 'invited to accept Christ.' This is not a bad thing, except for maybe the fact that the collection place always gets passed before that, and the invite comes at the end, when everyone's ready to get home and eat.

Oh yes, that evil collection plate . Don't wanna give? Then don't give. They don't take your name, and if anyone sits next to you and judges you in words, looks, or actions then they are a hypocrite. So what are you worried about? This big, scary collection plate. If it's a problem, let it pass...just make sure you read the FREE Book in front of you.

Originally posted by queenannie38
I digress. Anyway, this goal of conversion occurs in various ways, handing out bibles, missionaries, and revivals, etc. Various websites representing groups devoted to this goal have statistics on-line concerning the amount of souls 'they have gotten'--how many have been converted (and the methods of this even vary in our present times--some baptize, some don't).

For example, I saw one which was based in Korea--it stated that so far, 25% of the population had been converted, and their goal was 75%.

Who's keeping score? Is one person more important than another? People don't convert people. God does, and we want to take the credit for that? That's gonna take some explaining to Him when our time comes...

Originally posted by queenannie38
BUT

Does not the book of Revelation say that in the end, it will turn out that everyone on the earth worshipped the image of the beast, except for the remnant whom God sealed in their foreheads?

Is not the predominant cry of the current world ministry about the 'end-times' imminently approaching?

What is wrong with this picture? Or is it just me?

No number is given. No time is given. In fact Revelation describes a multitude from every nation and prior to that, the time would come like a thief in the night, an unknown hour.

[edit on 25-7-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Oh yes, that evil collection plate

.
So what are you worried about?

I'm not actually worried--about that or anything else, for that matter. I personally haven't seen a collection plate, in person, in probably 20 years.
I was just digressing, not stressing.

Originally posted by queenannie38
I digress.

Who's keeping score?

Well, um, obviously they are--those who provide the tally are often the ones keeping track of it as well.

But that's not my point--none of that you mentioned such as God saves people, people don't save people, etc. is what I mean. All true, nonetheless.

No number is given. No time is given. In fact Revelation describes a multitude from every nation and prior to that, the time would come like a thief in the night, an unknown hour.

Numbers don't matter--God doesn't count, the same as we do. He has no need to add things up. But He still gives us quantitive information of a certain type, regarding one thing.

The time doesn't matter, either--the end comes when it is time.

You're missing a glaring contradiction--not of what the bible says, but of what these things I stated seem to show that the evangelical world thinks it says.

And while I know that certain matters of interpretation are important to each of us independently according to His will and our experiences, certain other matters are crucial and must be understood by all of us the way they were meant---to all of us because they apply to the world as a whole.

But all this isn't about thinking I can change anything--all goes according to God's will, no doubt. But does anyone see what His will seems to be at the present time, according the word of the prophets?



[edit on 7/25/2005 by queenannie38]

Originally posted by queenannie38

Does not the book of Revelation say that in the end, it will turn out that everyone on the earth worshipped the image of the beast, except for the remnant whom God sealed in their foreheads?

By remnant, do you mean the 144,000 ?

That's what it seems to be--mainly, though, my point is concerning 'those who did not bow before the image of the beast' which could be less than the 144,000 since this is mentioned between the two times the 144,000 are mentioned--maybe it is referring to those who are still living--which would be literally the last remnant, the last generation.

I guess what I'm really asking is,

Do you believe all christians will go through the Great Tribulation or only 144,000 ?

And if so... what happens to all the other christians ?

[edit on 26-7-2005 by joyouslyhumored]

Originally posted by joyouslyhumored
I guess what I'm really asking is,

Do you believe all christians will go through the Great Tribulation or only 144,000 ?

And if so... what happens to all the other christians ?

[edit on 26-7-2005 by joyouslyhumored]

Oh boy. Loaded question.

These are my general thoughts, necessary before I can answer your question:

Christian is a cloudy term--as is Jew. Israel is a more precise term, but largely misunderstood to be a place rather than a people--and when believed to be a people, they are confused with sephardic and ashkenazi Jews as being one in the same group. It's all a quagmire, so I will just use the designation of 'elect.'

Those who are elect are those which Christ chose, whom the Father gave Him, and these are those cannot be fooled by all these end-time shenanigans. They follow the lamb wherever He goes, etc... They are the 144,000, to be sure, and it is through their witness that those in the great white throng are brought to the truth of Salvation through the grace of the Living God. They are 'virgins', remember, having not defiled themselves with women, or more properly, idols.

As far as tribulation goes, i.e. 'the great tribulation' meaning the traditionally believed 7 year time which is the predominant idea of 'end-times'--I find there is nothing biblical to support this commonly held belief. It might seem so, especially when those especially trained and versed by their local seminary for the purpose of promoting delusion (unbeknownst to them, no doubt) are so good at presenting the standard arguments for it.

But it's founded on a mistaken identity which goes back to the book of Daniel, and in trying to make that error fit, the whole idea of a missing 7 years (70th week) was born, and more than just a few daughters of gross error were born from that one mother of invention. It is partly dependent upon another misconception, about a 3 1/2 year ministry of Christ--which is, in turn, dependent upon the very yarn it is supporting in the first place.

IOW, the 'great tribulation' is a circularly argumented fallacy that was created as a powerful distraction tool by the powers of this world. Just another in a long, long line of diversionary tactics given in the last 2 millenia.

That being said, I honestly believe that everyone, who doesn't die of natural causes or trauma between now and then, will be right here when the skies are rolled up. Everything is going to keep churning until then, just like always. Then, just like in the days of Noah--BOOM it's time to wrap it up. Many will be shocked and dismayed, especially when they realize all the rapture and tribulation ideas were 'cunningly devised fables' and hey! what happened to 'The antichrist?' It will be quite the event, I am certain. And no one is getting special favors by getting whisked out of harm's way before the blankety-blank hits the fan.

Why would God's people expect a repreive? They've already got one, THE ultimate pardon--and according to scripture, they truly do not love their lives to the death nor do they have anything to fear on the great and dreadful day of the LORD, and are able to stand within the body of Christ before the Father.

Why would God's people expect a repreive?

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

There is two, to get you started.

Originally posted by jake1997

Why would God's people expect a repreive?

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

There is two, to get you started.

The idea of escaping and being kept from temptation does not necessarily mean not being physically present. It just means relieved of the temptation--not being taken in by the 'strong delusion.'

It has to do with being 'immune' so to speak, against the lies and delusions of our physical world. Judgment comes when we are faced with the witness of the Holy Spirit--will we recognize it or be fooled?

God gives us an inner strength to know what is of Him and what just seems to look like it is--no matter how convincing it might be, some are never fooled. That is the reprieve that we get. We are not to 'love our lives to the death.' If we love our lives more than we love Him, we will be looking for a way to physically escape what hardship we think is coming.

The idea of a rapture is borne out of a still-present attachment to physical life and basically, a lack of faith in God's promises, and even His resurrection. Our death is our doorway out of here. Fear of death is what Christ released us from--and that fear comes from not seeing there is something beyond, thinking that death is the end.

If you want to test your own personal faith, think about your death for minute, and honestly evaluate your reaction. Is it apprehension, panic, or gloominess? Or is it anticipation and hope? If you knew you were about to die, would you think 'oh good, finally!' or would you think 'oh God please save me?'

This is not to say one feels hopeless or has an awful life if they welcome death when it comes.
I love my life--it is the best part of my life so far. I've never been so free and happy, although situations haven't remarkably changed on the outside. But to love one's life and enjoying the time spent is not the same as loving it to the point of holding on to it with all one's might.

What do you think Paul felt as he walked to the guillotine?

2 Corinthians 5:8 says a lot.

And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
(John 17:13-20)

God shields us from the world, so that we can serve Him as witnesses. Until the day our Judge and King returns to claim what is His, witnesses are needed.

The whole idea of a rapture is unsound--if all God's people are gone, who can be His witness? If He's just going to turn hearts to Him, then why 7 or 3 and 1/2 years of hell on earth under the rule of the so-called antichrist?

This world is ruled by Satan right here and now. Christ bought back all of us. All of us. He's not going to come and claim His rightful possessions in part. He's going to take back those He bought and their inheritance from Satan. Satan is done when Christ returns. He's been here since the crucifixion:

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
(John 12:31)

Christ says now, not later, but now. This is the same 'casting out' as in Revelation:

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
(Revelation 12:7-11)

Satan was not cast out of heaven--his place was no longer found in heaven--his 'first estate.' He was cast into the earth, not down to the earth. It doesn't say where he was cast out of, and we know he is let out of the abyss in chapter 8. First he was let out of the abyss, and by his influence God allowed men to crucify Christ, but the blame lies upon Satan, since all men are forgiven through His shed blood.

The 'short time' that Satan had is about up--he's had the last 2000 years to perform his last efforts to steal souls (which will be of no effect as far as receiving amnesty--men will be punished, Satan will be destroyed, but all men are saved at the point of Christ's crucifixion)

Doesn't appear to be the case? Nevertheless, it is true.

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
(Hebrews 2:8-11)

To say that Revelation 12:7-11 hasn't happened is to say we have not yet been sanctified, to say we are not yet overcomers in Christ.

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
(John 16:33)

Christ overcame at that time. Did we?

I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
(1 John 2:13-15)

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
(1 John 4:4-6)

It would seem so!

So either we can choose to follow blindly the modern teachings which do not bear up under strict scriptural-only scrutiny--or we can recognize the sacrifice of our Saviour.

The 7 year tribulation/rapture theology is quite frankly, 'damnable heresy!'

The idea of escaping and being kept from temptation does not necessarily mean not being physically present.

Yet that is exactly what it says.

It says

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

It has to do with being 'immune' so to speak, against the lies and delusions of our physical world. Judgment comes when we are faced with the witness of the Holy Spirit--will we recognize it or be fooled?

Jesus refutes this by putting this

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The idea of a rapture is borne out of a still-present attachment to physical life and basically, a lack of faith in God's promises, and even His resurrection

Not believing in the rapture is borne out of pride and the desire to remain on earth through the trib because of highmindedness, and a lack of faith in Gods promises and even His second coming.

Didnt like that did ya. Just trying to show you exactly what you sounded like to others.

If you want to test your own personal faith, think about your death for minute, and honestly evaluate your reaction. Is it apprehension, panic, or gloominess? Or is it anticipation and hope? If you knew you were about to die, would you think 'oh good, finally!' or would you think 'oh God please save me?'

I wake and think...Lord is today the day....and sometimes I panic thinking..who will take care of my family...i havnt saved enough, done enough...how will they make it.... Then I catch myself..look at God and say 'duh'....realizing He has it all under control...then I drive on.

There is always something in the OT to confrim or witness the things of the NT.

According to the Book of Revelation the 144.000 are Hebrew Prophets, that God will raise up during the Tribulation to spread the gosple to those "left Behind" that includes Christians and non-Christians.

The ones that think 144.000 are the people taken to Heaven are the Jeohavh Witnesses.

the number 144,000 is jsut a "Large number" Kind of like saying "many manys."

The significance is rather pointless conidering after the first 144,000 were sealed according the the tribes of isreal.

Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

But then again, jehovah Witnesses have re-written the bible to suit thier own needs. Remeber, they get one point for talking to you at your door, and five points if you let them inside. They just throw copies of the watchtower at me and run.

Originally posted by jake1997


Not believing in the rapture is borne out of pride and the desire to remain on earth through the trib because of highmindedness, and a lack of faith in Gods promises and even His second coming.

Didnt like that did ya. Just trying to show you exactly what you sounded like to others.

Nice try. I know what I sound like, saying that, and it's something I've stifled at other times. But if I know it is true, and it's not me that determines, just observes, what can I do about my words? I'd rather just speak plainly than butter up harsh truths to help others swallow them.

Because this is the deal: it's neither here nor there to me who has faith and who doesn't. God will take care of all of us in the meantime and afterward. I don't believe we can choose fully if we have faith or not--I truly believe it is a gift from God, because I was born believing and I have never been able to not believe. Truthfully it puzzled me for years, why some believe and some don't/can't/won't. Then I realized God gives it to us. So I'm not judging in any way.
At the same time, I can not in good conscience, ever respond to any ideas that I know to be totally unfounded in scripture with anything less than the blunt truth. I don't think anyone believes in the rapture because they consciously don't have enough faith in God--but that is the actual effect such a misleading belief can have in any soul--it is a subliminal type suggestion that eats away at one's faith. And the rebellion started that heresy, presented under the name of 'scriptural truth' for that very purpose. Anything to get a 'little one' to unknowingly somehow resist/reject the spirit. And those that push these ideas have likely no idea either--but it is no example--faith in God means listening to Him and not to men--but it is not obedient to either allow untruths to be said without objection, and it is punishable to mislead others, even if one is misled themself. What does God tell Ezekial?

And so I say it just like that--if someone is offended or mad, that just means they will think about it more than if it didn't matter. And maybe even they'll decide they're going to prove me wrong, and in so doing (provided they use the bible to find their proof) then they will see that there is no proof because it is not true. I never risk offending anyone for the sake of any sort of subjective statement.

I wake and think...Lord is today the day....and sometimes I panic thinking..who will take care of my family...i havnt saved enough, done enough...how will they make it.... Then I catch myself..look at God and say 'duh'....realizing He has it all under control...then I drive on.

There is always something in the OT to confrim or witness the things of the NT.

So are you saying you believe in the rapture? I used to, too. But when it started becoming a thought like you have in the morning, I had to search the scriptures for some kind of answer to soothe my heart. I learned, over the course of study--looking for some actual scriptural proof that's solid, that all there is the same circular suggestion that does not work in the original language of Greek. A lot of it has to do with the word 'apostasy'.

As much love as you know God has for all of us--do you really believe He's separate a family in such a manner to punish the dearly cherished loved ones of a soul faithful to Him?

Did He destroy Lot and His family in Sodom? Did He save Lot on his own merit or that of Abraham's? 4 were saved for the sake of one (who wasn't even one of those 4!)

What about Noah's family? It wasn't all of them that God found righteous in all the world. Just Noah. 7 were saved for the sake of 1.

I guess some had a similar concern in the NT--which Paul addressed:

But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
(1 Corinthians 7:12-17)

The rapture idea has no leg to stand on because
Did not God tell Abraham that all families would be blessed by the Promised Seed? And so, that means at the end, that all families will indeed by blessed by the promise of eternal life. And from what Paul says, that in turn, blesses the members of the nuclear family as well.

By one vow, God took care of every living human being in this world that would ever live!

Do you not believe He will do as He said? The possibility of 'left behind' does not equate with a loving and just God. God loves perfectly and He is perfectly just which = mercy. The tribulation theory has no inherent mercy in it at all--because in order to be given mercy by God to escape, then it means that one must be somewhat merciless to those they supposedly love as much as God loves them.

Do you not think God loves you as much, or more, than your love your spouse, kids, and parents?

It's a pretty strong delusion. But it just a trick of the enemy.

[edit on 7/26/2005 by queenannie38]

I'm a little lost.

Where does the Bible talk about a pre-tribulation rapture ?

Originally posted by joyouslyhumored
I'm a little lost.

Where does the Bible talk about a pre-tribulation rapture ?

Where does it talk about a rapture, at all?

Something of a translation, a transfiguration seems much more likely--but I think this is usually called 'resurrection.'

Unless you mean rapture as in 'a state of bliss.' That, of course, is something guaranteed when we get to New Jerusalem.

Yeah, baby, that's what I'm talking about!