Ancient Egyptian accretion theory

A light house is supposed to be seen far out, in the case of the Light House of Alexandria, obviously you need to see it out in the Med. Why? Because the light was made so people out in the sea would see it and not get lost, since Alex was a trading capital and later the capital of Egypt in those times... But just becauset hey can make a simple light house, doesn't mean they can see Jupiter. It's just too far away. I mean, Venus looks like a not-blinking star in the sky, I doubt we can even see Jupter in our sky. lol

I think you're mistaken... As for "bodily circle", I mean Jupiter; it doesn't mention any sort of land/planet/brown dwarf i nthe text (not even anything similar).

Hello d3vilishan9el,

bc] I'd like to get this one point across to you and all readers

It doesn't matter whether we can see Jupiter or not! And it doesn't matter what either you or I think!

The point is that
Jupiter, and the Eye of Horus was immortalized in recognition of the Great Eye of Jupiter.

They wrote about Jupiter in the "The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts."

They wrote about it in the ancient Book of the Dead

They celebrated it during the Ten Day Festival.

They immortalized it their eye shadow.

The Greek immortalized it in Zeus [Jupiter] and Athene who was born from the forehead of Zeus

The Roman immortalized it Jove

JUPITER was the King of the Gods, the ruler of Olympus and the patron of the Roman state. So it serves no purpose to continue denying it .. it's up to [us - me] to see how they saw it.

That's the next chore!

bc
.

[edit on 27-7-2005 by beforebc]

Originally posted by beforebc
Harte wrote] You said nothing about ancient telescopes (which you have inserted into my statement)

bc] WRONG!
You were quoting a post I wrote in response to syrinx high priest .. where she asked: [can the eye on Jupiter be seen with the naked eye ? if not, what type of magnification is required]

BBC,
I didn't need the link, I read the post. What I do need is a link to a previous post of yours that mentions Egyptians having telescopes (which you did insert into your quote of my statement). That would mean I was wrong. Can you provide such a link?
Your statement about the time you looked at the moon was an obvious attempt to say that the Egyptians might have seen the red spot without the use of magnification.

It is you that is "WRONG!" here.

I suppose now you will do a little revisionism to imply that your previous statement

So can such things happen? Were ancient times [with their pure skies and zero light pollution] different?
I don't know .. and unfortunately traditionalists have destroyed or have pirated away all the ancient records.

actually meant "ancient records of Egyptian telescopes" and nevermind the tangential story of you "counting the rocks" on the Lunar surface with out the benefit of magnification.

Originally posted by beforebcIf you mean Bastet .. say Bastet.

BBC - if you mean telescopes, say telescopes.

Originally posted by beforebc
If you can't keep track of the posts [or what you even say] .. or you don't begin to use evidence over your continual conjecture .. I don't intend to respond. LAST TIME BYE

I have kept perfect track of the posts in this thread. As for evidence, when will you begin to use some? If you wish, I can present you with evidence that Jupiter is not a brown dwarf, that the red spot cannot be (and never has been) seen by the naked eye, that the red spot probably did not exist at the time the Egyptians wrote of Horus. A quick google search is all it takes. Have you not had time to investigate the claims on the website you linked to, or are you so lazy as to not even look into the possibility that something isn't true before you post and wax poetic about it?

Considering the absurdity you posted (here quoted) concerning your answer to syrinx high priest. How does the fact that you weren't talking to me in that post invalidate even one word of the comment I made on it?

Also, will you not address the statements I made before that would tend to bankrupt this Jupiter idea? You know, the probability that the red spot didn't exist during the era of the Egyptian Civilization, the mischaracterization of Jupiter as a "brown dwarf" by the author of the website you hang your reputation on, the fact that any "pirated" ancient Egyptian records (I guess involving telescopes) would absolutely have been presented by any sane archaeologist that wants to enjoy a lifetime of recognition, wealth and honor in his field?

Originally posted by beforebc
I don't intend to respond. LAST TIME BYE

"LAST TIME BYE"? Will you run from questions that other members post, or just the questions that might expose this idea for the farce that it is?

Harte

It's simple.

They could not see it.

They do not mention a round object with an eye on it, in the Book of the Dead.

They do not describe it.

"Horus is an ancient god of Egyptian mythology, whose cult survived so long that he evolved dramatically over time and gained many names. The most well known name is the Greek Horus, representing the Egyptian Heru/Har, which is the basic element in most of the other names of Horus. Horus was so important that the Eye of Horus became an important Egyptian symbol of power." en.wikipedia.org...

If you mean Heru say Heru, not Horus. That to me is poor work on the part of the site you use to quote. Since Horus is his Greek name not Egyptian.

"The Eye of Horus is an Ancient Egyptian symbol of protection and power, which originally had been named as The Eye of Ra."
en.wikipedia.org...

"The sun is either the entire body of Ra, or just his eye. In Heliopolis (the capital of his cult), Ra was worshipped as Atum (the setting sun), Re-Harachte (Venus) and Khepri ("the rising sun"). He was later associated with Horus. "
encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com...

"The utchat represents the Egyptian sacred eye. The right eye, the Eye of Ra, symbolizes the Sun. The left eye, the Eye of Thoth, symbolizes the Moon. Together they represent the Eyes of Horus The Elder. The utchat, therefore, is a symbol for the ability to spiritually perceive that which is illuminated, as well as that which is hidden."
www.spiritofra.com...

Now, unless you can proove they could see it the whole thread is pointless - like that site.

Hello Odium

Odium wrote:

Since Horus is his Greek name not Egyptian

bc] Odium you are [a mile and a half] out on a very slender limb!

Horus is mentioned 793 times in the Pyramid Texts, are you telling the world that the Pyramid Texts are Greek?

It is true that Sothis [mentioned 27 times] is the Greek name for Sirius. And Sirius is Isis in one form or another. So we do find Greek used for terms in the PT, but to call Horus Greek is akin to ________!

bc
.

Well for once I have to agree with BBC (I know it's a shock!), Horus is an Egyptian name, maybe it's spelled as HRS in Heiroglyphs, but everyone refers to the Sky god with the Hawk head as Horus. But again I disagree, Sirius has nothing to do with Isis! Sirius=Cyrus and Sirius is the Egyptian name for the North Star-brightest star in the sky. If you want to relate Hathor Egyptian goddess of love is the equivalent of Aphrodite of the Greeks (possible); she was the wife of Horus.

I have to back up Odium. Just because they celebrated Jove for 10 days, doesn't mean they refered to Jupiter lol. If I'm not mistaken WE named it Jupiter and all the other planets are named after Roman gods. Why we named them like that, I dunno. But we only discovered Jupiter less than a couple hundred years ago. So I mean, the Egyptians were thinking Metaphorical or something.

BBC>JUPITER was the King of the Gods, the ruler of Olympus and the patron of the Roman state.
That may explain why they named it Jupiter-it was the largest planet discovered at it's time and still is.

I translated my french mythology book and it says that Horus is known also as:
"Haroeris the big/great" and "Harpocrate the young one"

All the planets out as far as Saturn were recognized as planets from ancient times because they are visible to the unaided eye and move a bit from night to night, in contrast to the stars which did not visibly move.

They were re-named by the Romans well after they were given names by other civilizations. It is only in the past few centuries that the 3 outer planets were discovered, or that the true form of the planets became known with the use of telescopes.

A bit about Jupiter: www.nineplanets.org...

[edit on 27-7-2005 by berglion]

Sirius has nothing to do with Isis! What universe are you in?

From "The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts" [§ 1636]

Isis comes to you rejoicing through love of you; your seed issues into her, she being ready as Sothis.

Guessing doesn't fill the plate .. it just lengthens the limb.

bc
.

The name "Horus" is a general catchall for multiple deities, the most famous of whom is Harseisis (Heru-sa-Aset) or Horus-son-of-Isis (sometimes called Horus the Younger) who was conceived after the death of his father, Osiris, and who later avenged him. In all the Horus deities the traits of kingship, sky and solar symbology, and victory reoccur. As the prototype of the earthly king, there were as many Horus gods as there were rulers of Egypt, if not more.

The oldest of the Horus gods is appropriately named Horus the Elder (Heru-ur), and was especially venerated in pre-Dynastic Upper Egypt along with Hathor. In this very ancient form, Horus is also a creator god, the falcon who flew up at the beginning of time. The pre-Pharaohnic rulers of Upper Egypt were considered "shemsu-Heru" or "followers of Horus", and the original Horus is himself considered in some myths to be the brother of Seth and Osiris, second-born of the five children of Geb and Nut (Osiris, Horus, Seth, Isis, Nephthys). Horus the Elder's city was Letopolis, and his eyes were thought to be the sun and moon. When these two heavenly bodies are invisible (as on the night of the new moon) he goes blind and takes the name Mekhenty-er-irty, "He who has no eyes". When he recovers them, he becomes Khenty-irty, "He who has eyes". A warrior-god armed with a sword, Horus could be especially dangerous to those around him in his vision-deprived state, and during one battle in particular he managed to not only knock off the heads of his enemies but of the other deities fighting alongside him, thus plunging the world into immediate confusion that was only relieved when his eyes returned.

www.pantheon.org...

I'm not 100% sure, but you can read Ancient Egyptian?

The Pyramid texts, speak of several of these Gods, however through the ignorance of our time we assume they are all the one in the same "Horus" when it isn't.

Horus son of Osiris is spelt Heru or Har. In the Pyramid texts, this Horus would be splet Heru another would be spelt in a different way - however, it has been translated as them being the same when they are not.

Couple this with the fact it was translated in 1969 by R.O. Faulkner (prior to that in 52 by S. Marcer) and since then we have learned a lot more about Egyptian hieroglyphics.

Sopdet

"In Egyptian mythology, Sopdet was the deification of Sothis, a star considered by almost all egyptologists to be Sirius. The name Sopdet means (she who is) sharp, a reference to the brightness of Sirius, which is the brightest star in the night sky. In art she was depicted as a woman with a five-pointed star upon her head."

en.wikipedia.org...

There is actually still debate if Aset and Sopdet are the same person, due to the history of the two (Sopdet being a destructive force, before she was tamed). (Prof Karl Kerenyi) and the fact the Hieroglyphs for the two are so different.

(a quick note to commend the ones who have taken time and research to reply here! Excellent work!)

Originally posted by beforebc
If you mean Bastet .. say Bastet.

Actually, I mean Bast. The name is spelled B3s.t and the second 't' is simply a doubling or lengthening of the sound. Her original names seems to have been pronounced as "Ubastyya(t)" -- but that's waaayyyy too esoteric for this place.
www.per-bast.org...

"Bastet" is actually a mistranslation of the "B3s.tt" hieroglyphs. The second T should merely double the first sound. Since I knew this from my studies, I said 'Bast' and meant 'Bast.'

(and that oughta be enough hieroglyphics for the day, eh? BTW, for cat fans and Egyptian fans, the owner of that site has done archaeological research in Egypt and specializes in the Khemetic religion. Good site.)

This thread is about Ancient Egyptian accretion theory not

Yes, it certainly is. But if you'll check the site, you'll see that this statement appears there:

The Ancients believed [as written in the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead] that the earth was fashioned within the very depths of Jupiter and was ejected into space through the stormy Eye and the mouth of the serpent as Horus of the Gods!

I provided references (as did you, though the interpretation of 'emitted' has been bowlderized in the translation I have) that the Earth was not created by Horus, but by Ra-Atum (known variously as Atum (and a few other names depending on where he was being worshipped.)) And that was sort of odd, seeing you provide the information that said it was Atun who created the Earth and not Horus... and then turning around and insisting it was made by Horus.

I don't see any references in the "pyramid texts" or other texts to the eye being Jupiter (I do see references to the left eye being the moon and the right being the sun, and there are texts that pray to Horus to let his 'shining eye come forth' (the sun... the right eye.))

Now, the left eye was also significant. It also symbolized healing and restoration.

In this text selection, the mention is of the left eye, as a symbol of healing and restoring (for those of you reading through this and going 'huh?' I should explain that the 'healing' into life in the other world is what enables the deceased to partake of the food and other offerings left for them. Interestingly enough, you could 'say' the offering -- "a hundred loaves of bread to the spirit of Imhotep" for example, and that would be as good as showing up at the place and putting out a hundred loaves of bread):
www.pyramidtextsonline.com...

Here's the complete Pyramid Text, and it talks about the dead king using his spit (because he has become Osiris the god) to heal the left eye of Horus. But it doesn't talk about the Earth coming from Horus.:
www.pyramidtextsonline.com...


As to the banded design, well, you have to contend with some of the writing that says that the udjat/wedjat ("eye of Horus") was a based on the feathers around the eye of the common Egyptian falcon:
www.egyptianmyths.net...

Compare drawings of Horus:
www.culturefocus.com...
With the bird:
www.wildegypt.com...

Now, as for the Jupiter association with the Wedjat-eye, the Wedjat is not, in fact, the original symbol for Horus (the falcon was). The wedjat-eye shows up after the rise of the Osiris myth, when it is a symbol of healing as the 'wounded eye, restored':
www.touregypt.net...

Horus was, indeed, associated with the planet Jupiter, and that's a fairly old association. But the time of the rise of the Osiris myths and the Wedjat-eye is rather later than the origins of Horus.



So, to reiterate the points that I'm making now and made earlier (though rather badly):

* The earth is around 4 billion years old (maybe a bit older)
* Egyptian civilization has been around for about 7,000 years (maybe a bit earlier.)
* Horus, one of the oldest Egyptian gods, is about 7,000 years old.
* Horus is associated with Jupiter.
* Osiris was originally a fertility god and not quite as old as Horus:
realmagick.com...
* Horus' left eye, the wounded one, is associated with the moon:
towerwebproductions.com...
* If the earth didn't exist before Horus' eye was wounded, how could his mother have given birth to him in Khebet/Chemmis, a very real in the marshes of the Delta near Buto?
* If the earth didn't exist before Horus' eye was wounded, how could his father (before his conception and birth) have had his body parts buried at seven (or nine, depending on the legend) different Egyptian cities?

As to the planets,
* Jupiter is a gas giant and doesn't have many of the elements that we have here on Earth. (90% hydrogen, around 10% helium, only traces of other elements)
www.nineplanets.org...
* The red spot is a storm and although it's long-lasting, there is no evidence it was there a thousand years ago... or even longer ago.
* Anyone who proposes that the Earth came out of Jupiter needs to explain why there's NOT a corresponding spot on the other side of the planet (where something smashed in to "knock Earth out"... no, anything that passed by with a gravity well deep enough to drag a chunk of rocky core OUT of Jupiter would be swallowed by Jupiter because the core is very small and under about 50,000 miles of atmospheric ocean.
* Likewise they need to explain why the Earth has an orbit that's only mildly eliptical and does not swoop around Jupiter, the point of its origin.
* Likewise they need to explain why the axial tilt of Jupiter is only 3 degrees but that of the Earth is closer to 27 degrees, remembering that any skeptic with a bit of simple math and a few equations (Newton) can doublecheck their work.
* And by the way, this doesn't explain the Moon.


Not as quick an answer as before, and somewhat more elaborate on the details. I'll be glad to answer other questions about these. I'm not an Egyptologist by any means, but I have done some study of the place and culture and artifacts.


[edit on 30-7-2005 by Byrd]