Losing Jesus

Thanx Jake,

i knew i heard that somewhere...an so if God hates doctrine and some of us(man) hate doctrine.....doesn't that explain why so many regect God? because of mans doctrine.....i mean damn ...we have it all wrong here!

I found this link see what you think:
www.gospeltruth.net...

I hear preachers in the street saying 'you are all sinners and Jesus is the way to save you.'

But that is offensive straight away to non belivers but hearing it sounds off putting because they try and make out people are bad 'sinners' so I think that approach is negative. I see why people get put off as they think who are you to say Im bad. But ultimately the Bible is the only real authority and not another mans voice, if you read it you can not say who are you to tell me Im a sinner. Does that make sense?

[edit on 25-7-2005 by The time lord]

Originally posted by mercury19
Mara-Serapion ca. 73 AD "
Cornelius Tacitus Roman historian wrote of him ca. 112 AD
Pliny the Younger-governor of Blithynia Asia Minor ca.112 AD
Seutonia court official under Hadrian ca. 102 AD

I think 112ad and the like is way too long after the event to count. Also, josephus supposedly mentioned someone like him.

What would be nice would be a death warrant signed by Pilate for him, or a collection of contemporary documents from the pharisees talking about some trouble maker that had to be put down. Problem is, the jesus movement wasn't noticable for its time. Ancient historical texts don't tell us much about the regular people, the urban poor, the countryfolk, slaves, etc. Usually all we have of the average person is a tombstone or some statute that they brought to a shrine. Wouldn't be anything like that for jesus, he was, in a sense, a no-body.

You can see an example of this today in several church types.

Technically its all christians that are like that, since the bible is something that the churches of the day had to put together. Without that, you just have torah, and a lot of gospels, letters, acts, etc, like the gospel of thomas, mary, etc. Heck, there's even a Gospel of Pontius Pilate out there! You needed a system of preists to take care of the book, read it, study it, etc. The earliest christian communities had the apostles and short letters from them, and after them you get house churches with deacons a liturgy and Metropolitans for the entire city (hence the name), country preists, monks, etc etc. But the Apostles never set up a Bible, for example.

Originally posted by Nygdan
[I think 112ad and the like is way too long after the event to count. Also, josephus supposedly mentioned someone like him.

.

I agree to an extent. How about Seneca 3 BC to 65 AD wrote about the persecutions of the Christians under NERO?.. www.myfortress.org...

[edit on 7/26/2005 by mercury19]

[edit on 7/26/2005 by mercury19]

Hey doll,

Well obviously being a christian myself, heaing your story about losing Jesus doenst make me want to send you a hallmark card or anything in celebration of this but...all i can do share is what i know to be true and let people do with it what they will. i can only be accountable for myself. So dont worry, Im not going to judge you. You've read the book and you know what you are choosing and i respect that because freewill is God given.
I do have a few questions though:
when you came to what was in your opinon a "revelation" about Jesus Christ did your life change? I dont mean did you suddenly become a millionare, i mean after you went through the stage of cryiing over your loss what happened?

and my other question is...when you were a christian did you feel any inclinations that what you were believing in was a scam or did it only come after you started reading books and coming on here?

Kind Regards,
DigitalGrl

Mercury 19 your historical references as proof of the existence of JC are
false or non-existant.
Plse check it out.
www.jesusneverexisted.com...
Baloria

Oh pa leeze

Arguing the existence is futile. People who deny that have their heads in the sand. If you cannot come to grips with that reality considering all the evidence available then you are truely in need of a miracle that you do not believe will happen.

Good luck.

There is another cult of that era..about a guy with the initials J. C.
I dont believe that JC existed either.
Show me a picutre
Prove he was murdered on the ides of march
Anyone who wrote about him is a cult follower. He never existed.

See how easy...and ignorant that is

Baloria

Sorry but I disagree..there's plenty of evidence in writing about Jesus. The one's I listed are the non-secular ones and there are more -my opinion

Plus you're apparently only sourcing one account-What Josephus did or didn't write

[edit on 7/28/2005 by mercury19]

Plenty available?You probably mean falsifications?
Conc Josephus and others:
The Gospel Jesus and his story is equally missing from the non-Christian record of the time. Philo of Alexandria, the Jewish historian Justus of Tiberias, Pliny the Elder as collector of reputed natural phenomena, early Roman satirists and philosophers: all are silent. Pliny the Younger, in his letter to Trajan from Bithynia c.112, does not speak of Christ in historical terms. Josephus’ famous passage in Antiquities 18 is acknowledged to be, as it stands, a Christian interpolation, and arguments that an original reference to Jesus either stood there or can be distilled from the present one, founder on the universal silence about such a reference on the part of Christian commentators until the 4th century.2 As for the reference in Antiquities 20 to James as "brother of Jesus, the one called (the) Christ", this passage also bears the marks of Christian interference.3 The phrase originally used by Josephus may have been the same designation which Paul gives to James (Galatians 1:19), namely "brother of the Lord," which would have referred not to a sibling relationship with Jesus, but to James’ position in the Jerusalem brotherhood, something which was probably widely known. A Christian copyist could later have altered the phrase (under the influence of Matthew 1:16) to render it more "historical" after Jesus of Nazareth was developed. [For a complete examination (and partial rethinking) of the Josephus question, see Supplementary Article No 10: Josephus Unbound: Reopening the Josephus Question.]
More interesting reading:
pages.ca.inter.net...
Baloria

Everything that has been done with religion and the bible has always been done in the name of a "higer power" and "in the name of faith"

So if you take those two ideologies you can actually seen how it has worked for the church for centuries.

In our modern age many faithful has relied in the bible alone forgotten the bloody line of deception that fallows behind.

Many believier will tell you to forget the anything else but what the bible tells you.

But the truth is that is you are seeking enlightment that will not be the right way to go.

To be fair to the matter at hand you have to weight the good the bad the evil and the lies that surround the church and the bible.

That is why topics like this are always welcome in heated debates.

Remember if you take the bible from the church what will the faithful is going ot have left, or what they church will used to influence the faithful.

In this passage Josephus names Jesus as the Christ. This paragraph, as is well known, has been rejected by scholars of note as not authentic.2
www.christianorigins.com...
Baloria

Was not taken into context and has been debated by scholars because during the translation words were change in favor of the church.

The church did the translations after all.

Josephus, was a renowned Jewish historian, native of Judea, born in 37 A.D. and lived in the time of the Apostles, he was also for a time Governor of Galilee, the same province that the Christ lived and did his teachings.

He traveled the region one generation after the Christ performed his miracles.

He resided in Cana, the city in which the Christ it is said that his first miracle was done.

He wrote about all the most important events of the times in relation to the Jews but he doesn't say anything about any of the miracles of the bible.

Now the twist with Josephus, He wrote his most important work The Antiquities of the Jews a comprehensive work depicting their history until his own time.

Now Alas the "Modern Versions" of his work has this passage,

"Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. Book XVIII, Chap.iii,sec.3

Now, Christians has been mentioning this passage for hundreds of years as a testimonial, of Jesus existence.

The issue is that the language of this passage doesn't match Josephus writings, words like, "If it be lawful to call him a man" and "He was the Christ" also "He appeared to them alive again as prophets had foretold"

Does not fit in Josephus style of writing because Josephus was a Jew, a devote believer of the Jewish faith and Jewish law.

Taken in consideration that the passage appeared 360 years after his death it makes many scholars that take the time to "research history" raised their concerns as the legitimacy of such passage.

Also taken into consideration that his work is an exhausted compilation of 20 books, devoted to "Robbers, obscure leaders, and even included forty chapters to the life of a king” Is hard to swallow that the greatest man in Christianity Jesus all it got was a mere passage in his most celebrated works.

Occurs believers will tell that you have to take what the Church tells you in faith.

I prefer research.



[edit on 28-7-2005 by marg6043]

BRAVO

Originally posted by baloria
Plenty available?You probably mean falsifications?

Im glad you agree that JC...Julius Ceasar, did not exist.

Now whats all this stuff about some kind of empire called rome that owned the whole mediteranian , and then some.

I dont see it. Its made up. Anyone who says different is a liar or a cult follower.

Amazing.

Jake,
As a Christian myself I can sence your frustration.

However your lame brand of sarcasm does nothing to further peoples faith in the word or Christainity in general. In fact it does the exact opposite of what you intended.

Shoulden't we as Christians constantly ask ourselves; "What would Jesus do"

Sorry to have to remind you of this.

Haha. If there is indeed an afterlife (in some way), I'm sure Paul is laughing to himself and saying, "dance, puppets, dance!" Seriously. Do you know how many 'christs' there were bofre and after the alledge time of yeheshua (latin: jesus, english: joshua). Like, a million! not quite that many, but any respected person always chose this as his name. Also, there were many people naming themselves yeheshua (like a stage name), because of it's meaning.

I don't deny that there might have been someone preaching (buddha style) in some common wealth of Rome, or even that he might have been crucified. But there is more evidence that his 'life' was based off of compilations of other myths, than that being his actual life.

- Fallen One

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
Hey doll,

I have a few questions:
When you came to what was in your opinion a "revelation" about Jesus Christ did your life change? I don't mean did you suddenly become a millionaire, I mean after you went through the stage of crying over your loss what happened?

And my other question is...when you were a Christian did you feel any inclinations that what you were believing in was a scam or did it only come after you started reading books and coming on here?

DigitalGrl,


After I recovered from the betrayal of this and countless other conspiracies, I went through years of introspection. In the end I came to know myself and more importantly, love myself as never before. I was reborn into a new spirituality and a connected with God as I never had before.

As a young adult I was always skeptical about the realities of Christianity. Eventually I was able to throw out what I didn't accept and embrace what I did. Ironically accepting Jesus as savior didn't really come to me completely, until just a few years before I lost. Thus the loss was extremely traumatic for me. Don't get me wrong. I still love Jesus and what he represents. Only now I equate him to Buddha, Mohammed and other prophets.

ATS had absolutely nothing to do with my lose. I came to this site initially to investigate UFOs and government cover ups. If I remember rightly, ATS didn't even have religious conspiracies back then.

To be honest, It was my one of older brothers who initially made me question Christianity. After becoming a minister, he became arrogant, self righteous, judgmental and what I considered unforgivably gullible.

Having been quite the scientist as teenager, he built his own laser at only fourteen. But later, as an 'enlightened man of God", He had forsaken all science came to look upon scientists as the "Devil's Advocates." He preached that only those who believed exactly as he, would make it to Heaven and was openly contemptuous of other faiths. Thus my introduction to the hypocrisy of religion came decades ago.

It wasn't the what I read on Internet that led me to my current beliefs. Any truth seeker knows you have to contemplate many perspectives before you can find "your" truth. What I read on-line only suggested that there were other possibilities to consider and after reading many books, I did.

I'd like to state for the record, I do not hate religion. I am not a Catholic basher. If any belief system makes you a better person, then it is a wonderful tool.

I do not judge anyone for their beliefs even though many are quick to judge me. I do not claim to have all the answers and I cannot prove what I believe to be truth. Then again, neither can you or anybody else. So if I chose to accept a theory presented in a book you believe to be non fiction, that too is my prerogative.

[edit on 7/30/2005 by dollmonster]

Originally posted by whaaa
Jake,
As a Christian myself

In fact it does the exact opposite of what you intended.

Shoulden't we as Christians constantly ask ourselves; "What would Jesus do"

.

~snipped~

indeed you should
As for me, I think my post hilighted the problem perfectly. Anything can be ignored. Even the truth. The God given truth.
It was not intended as sarcasm and you should work on whatever made you take it as such.
It was intended exactly as what I said.

PS... Maybe that is why it tasted so lame. Im sure I could be sarcastic if I wanted.



[edit on 30-7-2005 by jake1997]

Hey doll

Thank you for replying to my post. I can understand where you are coming
from in many ways. Im 19, and my mother is a christian and my father is not. they have been married 23 years now, so no broken home or anything thankfully. anyways, i have grown up with both beliefs in front of me. of course my father never told me christianity was bad or anything. he is more scientifically minded...as am i but remain a christian because like many people feel about their philosophies, i feel its the right one lol.
I am not catholic by any means, the denomination i agree with most is missori synod lutheran and thats what i was brought up as. i know people are going to bring up the "you are not supposed to marry someone that is not a christian thing.." so let me just state that my father was when my mother married him..but he lost his mom to lukemia at 19, and then my first little sister died during birth. im guessing that because of the anger from those things and his scientific mind that christianities idea of God werent believable to him. My mother on the other hand has unshakable faith. but doesnt judge my father. it makes her really sad that he isnt anymore and shes tried to encourage him to believe again but now respects his space and loves him all the same. ive since been "blessed" with another sister and she is 15 now...lucky me

Like you i have come across many people that call themselves christians and act the way your brother did. and it frustrates me to no end. I dont hate science in anyway. in fact i kinda got the faith of my mother and the science mind from my dad which was a really nice blessing. I dont however put my faith in science. But i dont think they are as at odds as we think them to be...we just dont understand everything..and so in the mix we make mistakes interpreting science and the intrecasies (dont know how to spell that lol) of religion.

Of course i think that my faith is the right one and disagree with all the others but i definatly dont judge the people. Yes i believe people go to hell and there is only one true God. but who am i to point my finger and say "YOU! that's right..GET IT STRAIGHT OR BURN!" i see people use that all the time...and id like to ask them....hows that working for you? damn, some christians even do that to eachother. sadly, some of the nicest people i have met in my life have not been christians at all. And i definatly adhere to the philosophy of questioning things to the enth degree. God gave us a mind and we should use it.

So while i disagree with your religious conclusions that you came too doll, i respect you the same. I think people forget the a relationship with Jesus is a PERSONAL thing. witnessing to people is wonderful also but theres more than one way to go about it. And what has always strengthend my faith are the christians that ive seen that spend more time holding themselves accountable for their actions than judging others.

Kind regards,
DigitalGrl

doll, I feel your sense of loss and I am sorry. I truly do hope you find personal peace in your search. I'm almost certain you will. You're looking hard enough.

I believe that religion is such a personal matter, that to try to find a common belief that millions of people can agree upon is nearly impossible. That is my concern with structured, organized religion.

Here, you have many different people (most with good intentions) telling you what is right and what is wrong and what to believe. Why is it so important that you all believe exactly the same as others do? (that's rhetorical) Your search will bring you to your truth.

And the truth shall set you free.