Man killed in London subway not involved in attacks, police say

I'm not putting down the SAS with my "They were wrong then too" comment. I just wanted to make that clear before anyone launches into a tirade about how good they are, we have had enough of those threads. They were wrong though, which is fact. I have read quite a lot about that incident, but none of us were there.

I'm a British and Australian citizen and have nothing but respect for our Special Air Services. Sh*t happens, just like the time a couple of troopers were concealed in a bush while in Ireland and they shot that kid who picked up an M16 he found in a hidden weapons cache in a cemetary. He pointed it in their direction, without even knowing they were there. So they did what they had to do I guess.

This is a very touchy scenario that has recently happened. I don't think any of us are in a position to state what was the right thing to do yet. If at all.

apart from the fact im gutted and annoyed that UM_Gazz has just closed my thread, which was totally different from this one as i was justifying the polices actions and offering praise, i will have to continue to post on this one attracting all the 'Bleeding Hearts'......

Fritz?...spot on mate....if im correct (?) it was the Israellis that passed on their knowledge of shooting terrorists to the British......wounding body shots simply are not enough......

and another thing.....are you telling me this Brazzilian guy wasnt aware of the recent events in London?.....even if we use the pathetic excuse that he thought he was being mugged/ attacked whatever by thugs with guns and that is why he ran......the tube station was crawling (as is the whole of London) with police officers in uniform.......it is not the normal action of innocent persons to run when confronted with a direct command to "stop,Armed police".......further the comment from some person saying that if i was in Brazil and had been given the same command to "STOP"...that i would have run is lame as hell......were not talking about brazil......were talking about the uk.

perhaps as im a brit living in Portugal i shall now start ignoring portuguese police officers and just do what the hell i like, i can always use the excuse that i just didnt understand.......when in FREAKING ROME, DO AS THE ROMANS!.....

The day carrying a back pack and running allows my government to kill people is the day said government shoudl be over thrown.

TextThe day carrying a back pack and running allows my government to kill people is the day said government shoudl be over thrown.

what a totally pointless post, its quite clear that, that isnt what has happened.

Originally posted by Silent Professional
The question that will never be answered. Why did he run?

If you have nothing to hide, then why would you run?

Hmmm..sometimes I think people like you are more dangerous than Bin Laden.
It is OK to shoot people who run when being chased like that?

Judge.

Listen In! I am not - repeat not, having a go at you but, I was taught from a very early age that if somebody in authority shouted at you, you stopped what you were doing and asked what they wanted.

Now in London, we've had a couple of suicide bombers detonating their devices. Day b4 yesterday, another batch of rucksack bombs were deployed but failled to detonate. [Bombers are in deep # with their handlers!]

In both cases, the perps were dressed in dufflecoat or anorack type jackets, carried rucksacks and acted strangely.

Enter the guy who got 'topped'. He exited a flat known to contain suspected terrorists, was dressed in the same way and he failled to stop when challenged!

Shame it happened but it is better to demonstrate that we won't be buggered about and that the Police are equipped to deal with this threat, than to run about like the headless chickens these pathetic, idiotic, shambolic and downright stupid idiots want us to behave like.

As Mack Bolan once said, 'Kill 'em all and let God sort them out!'

Originally posted by optimus fett

TextThe day carrying a back pack and running allows my government to kill people is the day said government shoudl be over thrown.

what a totally pointless post, its quite clear that, that isnt what has happened.

Really? Did I read a different version of the story?

Because last I read, that is exactly what happened.

Meanwhile, London's top police official says he regrets the death of a Brazilian national shot and killed by armed officers in a subway station but defends the policy of shooting to kill suspected suicide bombers.

Seems due process has been thrown out the window in Britan, police are now the judge, jury and executioner. JUST like in the middle east.

Do we have to sacrifice basic principles to win? If so, whats the point?



[edit on 24-7-2005 by crisko]

Originally posted by fritz
Enter the guy who got 'topped'. He exited a flat known to contain suspected terrorists, was dressed in the same way and he failled to stop when challenged!

What a disaster of a statement! It implies that something is actually known about terrorist activities in the flat, when it is only suspected.

As Mack Bolan once said, 'Kill 'em all and let God sort them out!'

Do you believe in God or is this a sour joke?





[edit on 24-7-2005 by Roy Robinson Stewart]

Any Londoners and NY'ers, if your late for a train - DON'T RUN, catch the next one.

Seems like in 'today's day and age' or 'post 9/11', if you run for a train you will probably be shot dead, especially if your skin is darker than white because running causes suspicion and the secret police will most likely assume your running to blow something up.

If a bunch of plain clothes people start chasing you and yelling at you to stop, even if you have no idea what they want or who they are, just stop and hope to hell they aren't going to kill you and steal your shoes for crack, pray they are SAS undercover agents.

How is a tourist supposed to know this?

[edit on 24-7-2005 by crisko]

A tragic error. Not murder though, as far as those cops knew he was a terrorist suspect who fled on being challenged. It's not their fault that the intelligence that led them to believe he was intimately involved with suicide attacks was incorrect. How'd you like to chase down someone who may have a bomb strapped to his chest and then have to make the decision to kill him? It's not as if the police enjoy killing people. The officer who did the shooting may at least have had the grim satisfaction of knowing he had prevented a suicide attack had the bomber actually been who he had been led to believe he was, but now he has the knowledge that he brutally killed an innocent man on his conscience. I'm very sorry for the victims of this shooting, both the Brazilian man and the police involved.

Meanwhile, London's top police official says he regrets the death of a Brazilian national shot and killed by armed officers in a subway station but defends the policy of shooting to kill suspected suicide bombers.

Seems due process has been thrown out the window in Britan, police are now the judge, jury and executioner. JUST like in the middle east.

Do we have to sacrifice basic principles to win? If so, whats the point?

[edit on 24-7-2005 by crisko]

i see the same way.
This shoot to kill madness is INSANE, i dont understand how come any normal ppl could accept that.
And this policy just show how despereate/unprepared the british police is.

In my opinion, they use this policy to shut up the ppl they shoot.
Imagine IF they have just wounded the brazilian and he could go to justice and give his side of the action.
Im sure the police officers would be in trouble.
Instead they shoot and kill, then if the guy is guilty good the police man is a hero. If the guy was innocent he cannot defend himself and the police just give their version of the facts away.

Really, if the guy really had any device in his hand to blow off something, do you think he would wait to use it ?
He would use as soon as he see any police running behind him.

Why would he run to the metro if he had a bomb setup there ?
Everyone know you dont need to be beside the artifact to trigger it.

Another thing, why didnt the police stop him as soon as he put his foot outside the house ?

In my opinion, the police explanation is unclear.

And this visual suspect thing is for movies.
It seems we didnt get any experience from the past.
Most of the terrorists(living in the big cities) nowdays looks like you and me.

Again, this action is so barbare as the bombing in the metro.
For a police officer, killing someone just based in your opinion is simply unacceptable....The worst is that this order come from above.



RIP

If the house he exited from was under surveilance then why didn't they storm it, like they did with that mosque (please excuse spelling) in East London. or at least pull the guy aside and search him with bomb sniffing dogs.

Peace

OH FOR GOD's SAKE WILL YOU ALL STOP WHINGEING?

If you were near this guy and he had a bomb and detonated it, killing your loved one and friends and you survived, you'd all be very pissed off.
You would demand action from all and sundry. And believe me, a shoot to kill policy would be right for you then.

Just because an innocent bystander [really - then why run away?] got slotted, you think London, New York, Sharm el Sheik, Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel and Bali and anywhere else where these evil, brainwashed idiots explode their bombs will go away?

DON'T BE SO NAIEVE!

NOTHING WILL CHANGE BECAUSE THE DEATH OF ONE INNOCENT - HOWEVER TRAGIC - WILL NEVER COMPARE TO THE DEATHS OF A DOZEN OR SO BUS OR TRAIN TRAVELLERS!

WITH THE SECURITY SERVICES SHOWING THAT THEY WILL ACT IN THIS OVERTLY FORTHRIGHT MANOR, TERRORISTS MAY THINK IT IS 'UNSAFE' TO CARRY RUCKSACKS FULL OF EXPLOSIVES ONTO BUSES OR TRAINS.

THEY WILL BE FORCED TO RETHINK THEIR STRATEGY AND WHILE THERE IS A PAUSE IN THEIR BOMBING CAMPAIGN [OR THEY'RE BRAINWASH ANOTHER DOZEN SUICIDE BOMBERS], THE SECURITY SERVICES WILL HAVE TIME TO WINKLE THEM OUT.

HOPEFULLY, AS WAS THE CASE IN 1980 AT PRINCESS GATE, THERE WILL BE NO EXPENSIVE TRIALS, NO IDIOTIC HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYERS SCREAMING THAT TERRORISTS ARE JUST ILL TREATED ABUSED CHILDREN AT HEART WHOSE PARENTS DID NOT LOVE THEM, AND THEY WILL BE QUIETLY AND FORCIBLY REMOVED FROM THE HUMAN RACE.

I MAKE NO APOLOGY FOR EARLIER STATEMENTS APART FROM THE QUIP ABOUT MACK BOLAN. THAT WAS ILL CONSIDERED. AFTER ALL - MACK BOLAN USED TO KILL THE MAFIA.

Fritz, do you (or anyone else) really, truly believe that potential terrorists will suddenly sit back and think "Oh good golly gosh, we best not try to use our backpacks, because those jolly effective police officers might shoot us!" Do you honestly think that potential terrorists will "think twice" because of this shooting?

That is naive, my friend.

Don't you get it?

Living in fear is letting the terrorists win; when we're "ok" with the potential shooting of innocent people "just in case", then the terrorists win.



[edit on 25-7-2005 by Tinkleflower]

i'm sorry...............but if an officer of the law..........either undercover or uniformed told me to HALT...........i would stop dead in my tracks. PERIOD and turn around............see if they were talking to me or not.........

if not talking to me then i would continue moving on..........not running but moving on rapidly.

over here in the TN.......a southern state in the USA........most of us still believe in STOPPING if we're told to HALT or be shot..........gets our attention EVERY TIME.


angie

Originally posted by amb1063
(snip)
over here in the TN.......a southern state in the USA........most of us still believe in STOPPING if we're told to HALT or be shot..........gets our attention EVERY TIME.

angie

Big difference, angie -

It's standard practice for the police in the US to carry and use guns. People are raised with that knowledge, and as a result there's a certain expectation.

It's NOT standard practice in the UK.

It's an entirely different situation, an entirely different culture (in that context, at least).

Whether or not you'd do it in the US is moot; it's just not the same environment at all.

TINKLE

i still disagree....................my point was this.............and i guess i didn't make it clear..............i referred to the guns being pulled.........lemme try again..........

MOST law abiding citizens will STOP if a law enforcement officer tells them too..........gun pulled or not. they SURE don't leap stiles and take off in a dead run.........

in the atmosphere of the london subway right now..........it would seem incredibely foolish NOT to stop when confronted by officers.......

i guess THAT was what i was trying to say and didn't get it out the first time.


angie

Officers who weren't in uniform.

Officers who didn't necessarily look like the common impression of a British police force.

I know what you're saying, angie - really, I do.

It's just difficult to compare the two situations because they're so radically different, you know?

Of course you'd stop for a police officer here (the US) - you know what to expect, you know what to look for, you know the standard procedures.

But in that situation - ie, when guys who are not in uniforms are telling you to stop, and perhaps pointing a gun at you - it might very well change your perspective a little; specially if generally speaking UK police simply don't carry guns.



[edit on 25-7-2005 by Tinkleflower]

Tinkle - I have been up the sharp end over in NI. For a very long time, we were forced to take all the # the PIRA, INLA, IPLO, UVF, UFF and all the other crazies could and would, throw at us.

Then, one very fine day, we received the go ahead to take the 'fight to the enemy'. Believe me Tinkle, it was not very long before the PIRA council was calling for a general ceasefire across NI and as a direct result of SAS, SBS, Commachio, 14 Int, RUC SB and other undie-cover troopies, we fought and won the terrorist war, bringing the terrorists to the table.

But my point is this: During the so called 'ceasefires' or the lull in the NI and Mainland bombing campaign, the 'players' were able to shift Cemtex about the country will-nilly and re-arm and retrain their FCUs.

But, they also had to drastically rethink their strategies as they were loosing most of their top ranking 'players' to security force hits or ambushes. At that time, the various undercover troops were able to close with and score some memorable hits. (The SAS/SBS op against the JCB bombers at a police station springs to mind)

(A good read is 'Fifty Dead Men Walking' by Martin Mcgartland) This explains what it was all about, and what we should be doing against these bombers.