China Refuses To Back Down On General's Nuclear Threat Over Taiwan

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Taiwan was where the Nationalists retreated to in 1949, now we are reconsidering peaceful unification inorder to save lives. But that doesn't detract from the fact that it is part of Han China, always has been and always will be. They speak a subdialect of Mandarin, they write with traditonal chinese, they eat our kind of food and share our cultures and religions, how are they not Chinese?

Please define "always has been."

Since 1600 when we colonized it.

Also please see succestion of states theory according to Inernational law since 1998 it IS our land by International law, gee who would have thought of that. And this applies to Tibet as well.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Since 1600 when we colonized it.

Also please see succestion of states theory according to Inernational law since 1998 it IS our land by International law, gee who would have thought of that. And this applies to Tibet as well.

No, it is NOT your land according to international law. China signed away any and all rights it had to the land in 1895 and there has been no legally binding treaty that has since designated it back to China. Taiwan belongs to the Taiwanese people and to no one else.

umm yes it is. You see in 1945 it was given back to us, see Potsdam Declaration and the Treaty of San Francisco, the Republic of China occupied Taiwan, and in 1949 we won the civil war, according to the succesion of states theory it is our land.

See "Can China invade Taiwan?" if you wish to discuss this, otherwise I'm complaining to the admins I am NOT tolerating 10 different threads bashing China or argueing the same thing.

There is no taiwanese people.

get that in your head

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
umm yes it is. You see in 1945 it was given back to us, see Potsdam Declaration and the Treaty of San Francisco, the Republic of China occupied Taiwan, and in 1949 we won the civil war, according to the succesion of states theory it is our land.

See "Can China invade Taiwan?" if you wish to discuss this, otherwise I'm complaining to the admins I am NOT tolerating 10 different threads bashing China or argueing the same thing.

The Potsdam Proclamation is not a legally binding document. According to Public International Law, a properly ratified PEACE TREATY is required to transfer territory from one state to another AND that transfer MUST be specifically stated in the treaty. Potstam is not a peace treaty, it is a statement of intent. You also cite the San Francisco Peace Treaty (which happened AFTER the conclusion of the Chinese Civil War.) However, your bringing that into the debate has another flaw. It doesn't hand Taiwan over to China. Japan merely surrenders its claim to the island, it does NOT give it to China. Such specific mention is required under international law to effect the transfer. It doesn't exist.

As for complaining about "bashing" China, I love how you ChiComs can't take debate about your sacred cows. Actually, BTS is the proper place to discuss this issue, not the threads in ATS. Also, I am not bashing China. I am bashing China's government and the absurd claim that it has to this country. Frankly, I love China. I have lived there and enjoyed most of my time there. My beef is with the government, NOT the country.

Originally posted by chinawhite
There is no taiwanese people.

get that in your head

Yes, there is a Taiwanese people. They live here in Taiwan. 臺灣人 is Taiwanese in English, and is the standard term used in Taiwan. 臺語 (Taiwanese Language) is also a term in standard use, even by Pan-Blues, in Taiwan. So, YES, there is a Taiwanese people (an ethnic group composed of an admixture of Minnan Ren and Aboriginal Taiwanese - largely Plains tribes.) There is also a Taiwanese language (based largely, but not entirely, on a language known as Minnan in China, though it is quickly dying out in China.)

ChiComs

Keep that sabre down. That is a derogatory term. Dont make assumtions about who is what if you know know these people. I can assue you of being a chicken #ing homo-sexual but that is my opinion about you.Where have a i once said i was communist?.

Now please keep this into a more professioal manner instead of your resorting to mud-slining.


I think i know you from another thread.

If you dont know i am a fujianese. I refer to Min nan as hokkien.

I am one quarter hokkien one quarter hakka(strange combination) and the rest fujianese(from henan or Hunan china)

I speak and understand "taiwanese" and have never lived there, strange isn't it?

Min nan is not dying out in china it is expanding. Most fujianese like me have moved overseas(we a known for this). A example is my little township. it started off as a collective

We have a population of 200 people but they are mainly older people or very young people. the majority of the working age has already moved overseas. I have close(came fro the same great-grand parents) family living in italy, britian fance germany and spain. i live in australia and i am sure i have people living in the US.

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Now back to the topic.

臺 what is this character? i dont know tradtional very well. the word means taiwanese like you said but what does this character mean?

It is surprising if Pan-blue uses this because taiwanese is not a different language but hokkien disgued as something else


I would like to see the percentage of mixed aboriginal blood seeing as how many really do have aboriginal blood. The plain aboriginies look more chinese han than "Austronesian"(right one?)

And back to the sovernity claim.

japan accepted the Potsdam Proclamation when they agreed to surrender.

In the SFPT japan gave up the claim of taiwan when they did not have the terrioty. It was already in ROC hands and already administor by them. You cannot sign a treaty handing over taiwan if you didn't have diplomatic relatios with the PRC. which was still at a state of war with japan until 1971

[edit on 23-11-2005 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by chinawhite


I think i know you from another thread

.

I have been around promoting the right of the Taiwanese people to self determination. I have been on other threads in here. I also talk about Taiwan in my blog (www.xanga.com/ludahai) and on my website (www.geocities.com/ludahai), though I haven't updated the later in a while.

If you dont know i am a fujianese. I refer to Min nan as hokkien.

Hokkien is simply the old way to refer to Fujian Province. Minnan is one of the languages and ethnicities associated with the province, but the proper English term for Minnan is Hoklo (also spelt Holo), and NOT Hokkien.

I am one quarter hokkien one quarter hakka(strange combination) and the rest fujianese(from henan or Hunan china)

That is an interesting combination, though I love Hakka food. I hope you got that benefit of your Hakka heritage.

I speak and understand "taiwanese" and have never lived there, strange isn't it?

Not really. Taiwanese evolved from the Minnan language, though there are differences. My brother in law frequently travels to Fujian and he can talk with people there (usually those over 40) in Minnan with little trouble (though some technical and modern words are different and some Japanese has worked its way into Taiwanese). but he tells me that few people there under 40 can speak Minnan (Hoklo).

Min nan is not dying out in china it is expanding. Most fujianese like me have moved overseas(we a known for this). A example is my little township. it started off as a collective

Not according to my information. The ChiCom government is actively promoting Putonghua. This has resulted in the destruction and damage to local languages. When I lived in Shanghai, older people typically spoke Wu to one another, but I rarely heard anyone under 20 speaking the language, prefering to speak Putonghua. As my brother in law has told me when he is in Fujian, few people there under 40 speak it.

We have a population of 200 people but they are mainly older people or very young people. the majority of the working age has already moved overseas. I have close(came fro the same great-grand parents) family living in italy, britian fance germany and spain. i live in australia and i am sure i have people living in the US.

THanks for the personal history. Even though we disagree on the issues isn't a reason we can't be friends.

Now back to the topic.

臺 what is this character? i dont know tradtional very well. the word means taiwanese like you said but what does this character mean?

臺 = 台

It is surprising if Pan-blue uses this because taiwanese is not a different language but hokkien disgued as something else

Typically, the pan-Blue elite and other 新住民 (Chinese living in Taiwan) don't. However, the rank and file person who votes Pan-Blue and is either ethnic Taiwanese or is third generation 新住民 tend to use these terms. They are pretty standard in mass society now.

I would like to see the percentage of mixed aboriginal blood seeing as how many really do have aboriginal blood. The plain aboriginies look more chinese han than "Austronesian"(right one?)

Incorrect. The Aborigines of Taiwan are considered by many experts to be the progenitors of the Austronesian peoples of Southeast Asia, the Pacific and Madagascar. They are sometimes referred to as Proto-Austronesian. If you have ever seen a full-blooded Aborigine, they certainly do not look Chinese. The Minnan people who came to Taiwan in the 17th century generally intermarried because in the early days, few women came to Taiwan from China. That "blood" became a part of the ethnic blend that developed into modern Taiwan.

And back to the sovernity claim.

japan accepted the Potsdam Proclamation when they agreed to surrender.

However, as it was not a properly ratified peace treaty, it acts only as a cease fire, not a peace treaty. Peace treaties have to be properly ratified. The Instrument of Surrender does not constitute a treaty.

In the SFPT japan gave up the claim of taiwan when they did not have the terrioty. It was already in ROC hands and already administor by them. You cannot sign a treaty handing over taiwan if you didn't have diplomatic relatios with the PRC. which was still at a state of war with japan until 1971

However, the technical status the ROC had in Taiwan was that of a belligerant Occupier pending the formation of the final peace treaty, which didn't occur until 1951 (taking effect in 1952). They were in that status on behalf of the Allied Powers, NOT on their own accord. Once the peace treaty was signed, and there was no transfer of sovereignty to China, the occupation then became illigitimate in accordance with international law.

Originally posted by ludahai
Hokkien is simply the old way to refer to Fujian Province. Minnan is one of the languages and ethnicities associated with the province, but the proper English term for Minnan is Hoklo (also spelt Holo), and NOT Hokkien.

While i am a new fujianese settler my friends families(two) have been here since 1900's and called themselves Hokkien as kids. It sounds better than Holo so it stuck.

That is an interesting combination, though I love Hakka food. I hope you got that benefit of your Hakka heritage.

Well....I kinda lost touch of them because there in china

Not really. Taiwanese evolved from the Minnan language, though there are differences.

Well taiwanese is the same excluding some words by by themselves

Not according to my information. The ChiCom government is actively promoting Putonghua. This has resulted in the destruction and damage to local languages. As my brother in law has told me when he is in Fujian, few people there under 40 speak it.

Promoting putonghua as the main language. They still speak local languages at home.

What area did he travel to maybe i know

THanks for the personal history. Even though we disagree on the issues isn't a reason we can't be friends.

You are a alright guy but i will always have a different opinion than you

臺 = 台

Island?

Typically, the pan-Blue elite and other 新住民 (Chinese living in Taiwan) don't. However, the rank and file person who votes Pan-Blue and is either ethnic Taiwanese or is third generation 新住民 tend to use these terms. They are pretty standard in mass society now.

Is there a article about this occurance or is this some census thing?

If you have ever seen a full-blooded Aborigine, they certainly do not look Chinese.

A plains aboriginal doesn't. i have seen one. Looks like a black chinese or vietnamese. doesn't look northern chinese though

The Minnan people who came to Taiwan in the 17th century generally intermarried because in the early days, few women came to Taiwan from China. That "blood" became a part of the ethnic blend that developed into modern Taiwan.

The population of taiwan in 1900 was about 3million. In the 17th century very little people came to taiwan. 500,000 or 600,000?.

when zheng chenggong ran to taiwan he had a largish population that could have been divided into 40:60 females to males. that only makes a smaller percentage of them with aboriginal blood excluding other factors like gays or other island women


I want your reason why taiwan is indepedant. than we will talk about it. because i dont know what i am debating for or what your debating againest

Originally posted by chinawhite

Well....I kinda lost touch of them because there in china

That's too bad. I love Hakka food. I try to go to Sanyi and Tungshih whenever I can for authentic Hakka food.

Well taiwanese is the same excluding some words by by themselves

Never said that it wasn't. They are dialects of the same languages, but are both separate and distinct from Mandarin.

Promoting putonghua as the main language. They still speak local languages at home.

In most places, this is happen less than you may thing.

What area did he travel to maybe i know

He is usually around the Hsiamen area and the immediate hinterlands.

You are a alright guy but i will always have a different opinion than you

As are you. You are actually more moderate than some of the other Chinese on here which leads me to think that you are acting of your own accord, unlike others whom I believe are truly Chinese agents.

臺 = 台

Island?

No, just the character Tai for Taiwan. It actually means platform (like a train platform or stands at a baseball stadium.)

Is there a article about this occurance or is this some census thing?

More from my personal experience of living in one of the most politically balanced cities in Taiwan. While Taipei is overwhelmingly blue and Kaohsiung is similiarly green, Taichung is a marginally pan-Blue city.

A plains aboriginal doesn't. i have seen one. Looks like a black chinese or vietnamese. doesn't look northern chinese though

Are you sure he was pure-blooded? There are very few pure-blooded Plains Aboroginies left. Most intermarried with Minnan people in the pre-Japanese colonial era.

The population of taiwan in 1900 was about 3million. In the 17th century very little people came to taiwan. 500,000 or 600,000?.

True.

when zheng chenggong ran to taiwan he had a largish population that could have been divided into 40:60 females to males. that only makes a smaller percentage of them with aboriginal blood excluding other factors like gays or other island women

Actually, if you are talking about 50% more males than femaes, that is not a small percentage at all. All island women at that time were in fact aboriginal (either plains or mountain.) Few mountain aborigines intermarried, preferring to remain as separate as possible from the Minnan colonists. It was the Plains over time who became more and more integrated with Minnan and Hakka communities.

I want your reason why taiwan is indepedant. than we will talk about it. because i dont know what i am debating for or what your debating againest

I will keep it simple.

1. The Qing Dynasty surrendered sovereignty over Taiwan in 1895 in a legally binding peace treaty.

2. Japan held de jure sovereignty over Taiwan until 1952 when the SFPT took effect. As it takes a legally ratified peace treaty to transfer territory from one state to another, this is the defining document. As Japan surrendered sovereignty but without a corresponsing transfer to China, according to the UN Charter, the Taiwanese were entitled to determine their own destiny.

3. As no mechanism has been permitted to this point, Taiwan's status is technically unresolved until such time as the Taiwanese people are permitted to express through a plebiscite their will for the future of Taiwan.

Do you consider me an agent? I've tried and I think KCsomething could attestify to my intelligence and moderation in the China vs Taiwan vs USA thread.

Originally posted by ludahai
That's too bad. I love Hakka food. I try to go to Sanyi and Tungshih whenever I can for authentic Hakka food.

I find Hakka food more sweeter than normal food.

In most places, this is happen less than you may thing.

Because the local dialect is becoming less important with the growth of modern communication and this new market economy

He is usually around the Hsiamen area and the immediate hinterlands.

You mean xiamen?

As are you. You are actually more moderate than some of the other Chinese on here which leads me to think that you are acting of your own accord, unlike others whom I believe are truly Chinese agents.

Who is it more benifical for. the taiwanese overnment to promote independence to the world or for chinas government to promote taiwan as a part of china?

China is not a isolated country like taiwan and is not backed into a corner. why would china need to hire people to persuade narrow minded western indivuals about how good a communist government is. There is a sterotype of communist countries in the western mind, largley because of the mass media they are under. They think, its communsit its bad. But have they ever met anyone that lived in a communist country except for ones that go on TV shows to bad mouth russia or vietnam or cuba.

The people that leave these countries done somethign wrong and would do anything to get asylum. theres a basic rule about communist governments. stay out of its way and it will stay out of yours

At first i fought you were a taiwanse agent but now i think your a indiviual like me.

No, just the character Tai for Taiwan. It actually means platform (like a train platform or stands at a baseball stadium.)

I asked my friend and he said someting like that, but i thought he meant island

Are you sure he was pure-blooded? There are very few pure-blooded Plains Aboroginies left. Most intermarried with Minnan people in the pre-Japanese colonial era.

Well he said it was pure aboriginal from taiwan. A bit on the darker side though. (vietnamese looking)

Actually, if you are talking about 50% more males than femaes, that is not a small percentage at all. All island women at that time were in fact aboriginal (either plains or mountain.) Few mountain aborigines intermarried, preferring to remain as separate as possible from the Minnan colonists. It was the Plains over time who became more and more integrated with Minnan and Hakka communities.

20% out of 500,000-600,000. thats like a possible 100,000 people that could have produced aboriginal half breeds. But would 100,000 plains aboriginals just thow themselves at the invading force?

1. The Qing Dynasty surrendered sovereignty over Taiwan in 1895 in a legally binding peace treaty.

2. Japan held de jure sovereignty over Taiwan until 1952 when the SFPT took effect. As it takes a legally ratified peace treaty to transfer territory from one state to another, this is the defining document. As Japan surrendered sovereignty but without a corresponsing transfer to China, according to the UN Charter, the Taiwanese were entitled to determine their own destiny.

How can the SFPT be legal if the ROC and PRC weren't there?

in the SFPT it says

(a) Japan will recognize the full force of all treaties now or hereafter concluded by the Allied Powers for terminating the state of war initiated on 1 September 1939, as well as any other arrangements by the Allied Powers for or in connection with the restoration of peace.

www.taiwandocuments.org...

That should include the treaty with the ROC

For the purposes of the present Treaty, nationals of the Republic of China shall be deemed to include all the inhabitants and former inhabitants of Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores) and their descendents who are of the Chinese nationality in accordance with the laws and regulations which have been or may hereafter be enforced by the Republic of China in Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores); and juridical persons of the Republic of China shall be deemed to include all those registered under the laws and regulations which have been or may hereafter be enforced by the Republic of China in Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores).

What is the legal basis for terra nullius? Taiwan had a government

How many countries have to reconize the ROC taiwan claim to make it legal?