I pledge allegiance

Originally posted by William

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
while freedom is restricted as a matter of political convenience.

Which freedom is it that you're concerned has been restricted?

The Freedom to Vote without having my vote deleted illeagally.
The Freedom of having a Govenment that tells the truth.
The freedom from a Govenment that chooses to classify information rather than to confront it.

Freedom from a govenment that has been overthrown by secret societies that have thier own covert agendas.

Freedom from a unfair and dishonest tax system.

Freedom from wars that are proffitable to those secret societies, and payable by the innocents.

Freedom FROM POLITICS, and a return to MORALITY.

Freedom from sadistic rule!

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
The Freedom to Vote without having my vote deleted illeagally.
>snip<

Theories, all of them. Nothing proveable for this discussion.

And, in reality, we don't want a government that tells the truth about everything... think about it.

Some information will always need to be secret.

Secret societies? You'll need more proof... focus on personal freedoms.

Taxes? What is unfair about it? You're speaking in generalities... we'd like to hear about specific personal freedoms lost.

Freedome from politics? Huh? Dude... get a grip.


I think I might be familiar with the reporter story you mentioned K_OS... wasn't there complications of alleged illegalities?

But thank you for brining up smoking. I don't smoke, but I think the crack-down on smokers is a problem... a real lost freedom. I think we need a compromise... smokers can regain their ability to smoke if they agree to personally foot the bill for smoking related illnesses they get... no burden on insurance or public health funds.



People... come on... your participants in a conspiracy discussion board! This is the best you have? Generalities, cigarettes, and firearms? If we want to dig into lost personal freedoms, we have to get into specifics. Surely someone has something else?

Freedom of assembly: to maintain their 'security' argument, you'd have to prove that the president is less safe today than he was five years ago, for example. The areas to which they visit endure the same sweeps, same road shut downs, the same snipers at every high vantage point.

So William, why are there such abhorations as "Freedom of Speech" zones consisting of fenced off areas on public land?

Our rights under the 15th amendment have been violated continuously; or did all those citizens of Arab ethnic background NOT disappear on both Coasts? I'm talking US Citizens, not to mention legal residents.
How about that fine young gentleman who converted to jailhouse Islam of Puerto Rican ancestry, born & raised in Chicago, the one with the plan that was not a plan with the contacts that were not contacts? Still incarcerated, no? 6th Amendment has come up missing on that one.
On numerous Patriot Act posts, most of the issues have already come to debate.
I think the important part is that, while the case can be made that the freedoms exist without cessation, overall, the vector and desire to erode and curtail by what passes for American leadership with this president is the cause for alarm, and it has nothing to do with our security.
Why is our Attorney General campaigning for the PA II !?! Why are budgets for state spending so backlog by the Feds when it comes to First Responders?

I find is funny that when freedoms are spoken of, the word firepower immediately succeeds it. The argument that you need to be able to keep your government in check is an excuse at best. I still think that guns are so integrated into American culture, people wouldn't know what to do if world peace came about and guns no longer gave one power.

Deep down, it's a childish desire to have a hunk of cool looking metal that makes a big sound and does damage to things. The human instinct to destroy...

Originally posted by Bout Time
Freedom of assembly: to maintain their 'security' argument, you'd have to prove that the president is less safe today than he was five years ago, for example.

Still... I'm willing give this one to "them". Security concerns of the fool-in-chief will always be a tough thing to fight... so it makes no sense to go there.


However, we're finally getting somewhere... maybe...

I thought the 15th amendment had to do with restrictions of races or slaves from voting?

It's also clear that the 6th amendment is dealing with U.S. citizens. While I dislike the handling of so-called prisoners... I think (for the sake of accomplishing something) this discussion should remain focused on the specific loss of personal liberties and freedoms of U.S. citizens.

I still think we're missing (aside from heavy-handed smoking laws, and questionable need for heavy personal armament) these importing specific losses of personal freedoms implied in the "loss of the republic" tone of the initial post. It's one thing to spew generalities and have everyone all nod their head in sheep-like agreement, it's quite another to dig deep into the heart of the matter.

Is this thread going to sink into the noise of conspiratorial discussion? The forever noise of Rense, RumorMillNews, and countless other sites and authors that combine to contribute to a totality of disinformation that far exceeds any planned disinformation from the official government side of this discussion. We conspiracists all to often spew these generalities, grasping at what we hope might be true, in an effort to convince others of government wrong doing. Unaware that, to the unconvinced "sheeple", we're coming across much less credible than those whom we seek to discredit.

Just look to the monster thread dealing with HAARP and earthquakes ( www.abovetopsecret.com... ) for inspiration on who to use a discussion form to dig into the heart of a matter such as this.


Come on folks... what are those personal freedoms you feel we have lost?


Or... is this generation... a generation which has not fought for freedom... unaware of what freedom truly is?

Some freedoms I feel that we never had, that I do not think are mentioned anywhere in the Constitution

The right to be left the hell alone. As long as there are no victims involved in your actions, you should have the right to do as you wish with your own body.

The right to have the same chances at justice, liberty and financial security as anyone else on the political or financial spectrum.

The right to not be persecuted for your religious or philosophical beliefs.

The right to not have to be a "valuable" member of society.

The right to be a nomad, garbage man or business man without your credibility deminished just by your "lot" in life.

The right to have your actions determine your credibility.

The right to take responsibility for your actions. (ie. if you buy a cup of coffee and dump it on yourself, you do not have the right to sue)

The right to life giving resources such as food, water and electricity no matter your finances.

Affirmative Action is a denial of rights.
AA prevents someone that is equally or more skilled from getting a position simply based on their race. This in itself destroys the 14th amendment.

Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property...

What does AA do, it abridges (shortens) the privleges of the majority race. It also deprives them of the property that could be purchased from the before mentioned job.
So NOT only does affirmative action take away some freedoms, it is also UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

_____________________________________________
Be Cool
K_OS

Ah... but the original compassionate reason for AA, to help a previously oppressed minority gan the means to advance within society, was noble and well intended. Too bad the current subversion of a once noble idea has forever poisoned the idea.

But are the results really any personal freedoms infringed, or simply bothersome inconveniences imposed? It's a long hard road to prove that affirmative action has caused some to be denied life, liberty, etc.

The pledge was just one more form of brainwashing. Children, who didn't even have any idea what they were even saying, repeated the pledge every morning. Sure, I remember having to do it. There always seemed to be one kid who had parents that were foreign, or of a religious (or nonreligious) belief that they felt should exclude their child from saying this once a day. Even then, the poor kid had to hear it. If that's not brainwashing, I don't know what is.

BTW, can you remember how old you were before you even analyzed the statement? Or did they explain what it meant? They never did in my schools. I don't think I ever even gave it any thought until maybe 8th grade.

[Edited on 21-8-2003 by Satyr]

Gazrok

You may not be aware of this, and apologies if it's already been commented on, but when the 'president' and the media are in town, there are officially designated protest zones and no-go zones, away from the 'president' and media.

I feel somehow you may have missed that.

It's only one thing. There have already been dozens.

The creepage is insidious, and right under your noses.

( So much for thinking I knew these things off the top of my head )

William - yup, it's an anti-racism voter priv. amendment. It's the racial profiling thing that bridged in my head. Which, as numerous stand up comedians have alluded to, "DWB" ( driving while black) ain't shyte next to Turban wearin'!

Along personal freedoms:

Privacy.
- How does it make the country safer that John Ashcroft knows that I purchased wine, cheese and a baguette on my MasterCard debit card? Does it really raise a bigger flag when I buy olives, hummus & pita?

- Lib. checkouts - terrorists frequent libraries!?!

- Attorney/Client privilege

More trivia (?)

The freedom to smoke a fine Havana cigar.

Originally posted by Bout TimePrivacy.
- How does it make the country safer that John Ashcroft knows that I purchased wine, cheese and a baguette on my MasterCard debit card? Does it really raise a bigger flag when I buy olives, hummus & pita?

Privacy. Hmmm... is this really a guarantee? Or, more importantly, what has this increased intrusion into your private life done to your personal freedoms. You can still buy those things... right?

Cuban Cigars... ah... that one is tragic. Funny how the only two real personal freedom erosions we've noted here have to do with the enjouyment of tobaco.


I suppose I was hoping for more solid data from our fine members... to bad. I guess we can have only one productive thread at a time.

Whats strange is that Cuba is the only Communist country we ever had a real embargo on. We still trade with china.

Source withheld but duly acknowledged at source:


1984 was intended as a warning about the evils of totalitarianism -- not a how-to manual. We�re a long way from resembling the kind of authoritarian state Orwell depicted, but some of the similarities are eerie.

In 1984, the state was perpetually at war against a vague and ever-changing enemy -- a convenient way to fuel hatred, nurture fear and justify the regime�s autocratic practices. The war against terrorism is almost as amorphous. Exactly what constitutes success in this war remains unclear, but the Bush adminsitration is clear on one point: the war will continue indefinitely.

In 1984, an omnipresent and all-powerful leader, Big Brother, commanded the unquestioning support of the people. He was both adored and feared. No one dared speak out against him. The Bush administration is (perhaps) not as menacing, but it has quietly achieved the greatest expansion of executive powers since Nixon. Minions cultivate an image of infallibility and impugn the patriotism of anyone who questions leadership.

In 1984, Big Brother�s ever-watchful eye kept tabs on the citizens of Orwell�s totalitarian state. The Bush administration has its new TIPS program to enlist citizen-spies as extra eyes and ears for law enforcement. And the Justice Department, thanks to the hastily passed USA Patriot Act, has sweeping new powers to monitor phone conversations, Internet usage, business transactions and library records.

Could America become an Orwellian society that accepts war as peace, freedom as slavery and ignorance as strength? Can it happen overnight, or would it involve a gradual erosion of freedoms with the people�s consent?

So powerful was the state�s mind control and manipulation in 1984 that, eventually, everyone came to love Big Brother.

Perhaps in time we all will, too.




Right under your noses.