Black Space Crafts

Originally posted by FredT
I am skeptical and I will tell you why.

Vandenberg is easily viewed. Even ICBM shots can be seen as far north as the SF Bay area. Hard to explain...

Its a pretty big hit for a black budget to absorb with eacah space shot running $$$$$$ numbers of dollars.

The facilites at Vandenberg are no where near what NASA uses for "routine" shuttle ops etc.

The Vandenburg Shuttle launch facilities were to be used in the event that the Shuttle was required to be placed into a Polar orbit, which is hard to reach from Kennedy. This facility was never used and was abandoned after the Challenger disaster.

The other aspect I forgot to add is that of air traffic control. You have to seal off a huge chunk of airspace (even more in the post 911 era) and that alone draws attention to the launch

There's no such thing for a simple reason: the US needs to inform Russia of all their space launches and vice versa to avoid nuclear holocaust. To get into orbit you need huge amounts of energy which show up easily on infrared satellites to track ICBM and other missile launches. The idea that the US would risk thermonuclear war just to get some secret stuff into space is preposterous.

Originally posted by Simon666
There's no such thing for a simple reason: the US needs to inform Russia of all their space launches and vice versa to avoid nuclear holocaust. To get into orbit you need huge amounts of energy which show up easily on infrared satellites to track ICBM and other missile launches. The idea that the US would risk thermonuclear war just to get some secret stuff into space is preposterous.

Actually, tests and space launches are rarely something that everyone is informed about. The trajectories involved in both are such that its immediately obvious only 30 seconds after launch that orbit is the goal and not a strike, otherwise the trajectories would be slightly flatter and in certain directions.

Originally posted by Simon666
There's no such thing for a simple reason: the US needs to inform Russia of all their space launches and vice versa to avoid nuclear holocaust. To get into orbit you need huge amounts of energy which show up easily on infrared satellites to track ICBM and other missile launches. The idea that the US would risk thermonuclear war just to get some secret stuff into space is preposterous.

Maybe the military shuttle and rockets are stealth.

Sorry didn't mean to create dissent only relating what I was told. I too question how something as big as a space shuttle can be launched into the night sky and not be seen by millions of Americans, but he stands by his comments, saying that he witnessed it launch more than once, under usually less than ideal conditions with heavy cloud cover. I have no reason to doubt his word, even though it is hard to phantom. Stranger things have happened in this country and stranger things fly every night in our skys. Wish I could get more info for you but if I pry too much he will clam up.


[edit on 2-8-2005 by Yorga]

Why don't you invite him here to talk about it.

Originally posted by Yorga
Sorry didn't mean to create dissent only relating what I was told. I too question how something as big as a space shuttle can be launched into the night sky and not be seen by millions of Americans, but he stands by his comments, saying that he witnessed it launch more than once, under usually less than ideal conditions with heavy cloud cover. I have no reason to doubt his word, even though it is hard to phantom. Stranger things have happened in this country and stranger things fly every night in our skys. Wish I could get more info for you but if I pry too much he will clam up.

[edit on 2-8-2005 by Yorga]

Im sorry, but i disbelieve this person. Have you ever witnessed a Shuttle launch? Hell, a Delta launch? Unless you are closing off an area of a couple hundred thousand square miles and getting everyone out of that area, theres no way in the world you can keep a launch quiet.

You can feel a shuttle launch miles away. You can hear it dozens of miles away. You can see it from a couple hundred miles away. And space vehicles dont launch into heavy cloud ever since Apollo 12 lost all power on launch after a lightening strike caused by friction damaged the capsule.

Imagine driving a 50 foot semi tractor trailer through the middle of a crowded theatre while the opera is on and seeing if anyone noticed. Thats basically what he is saying the military is getting away with.

what about at many of the test islands the us has or out in the deserts or mountainus areas? would that thing use a "shuttle" as we know it or would it use some other means to get up there?

Originally posted by Simon666
To get into orbit you need huge amounts of energy which show up easily on infrared satellites to track ICBM and other missile launches.

That is assuming that they all spacecraft need a standard launch trajectory to reach orbit. In theory, there is a way to achieve a non-ballistic launched orbit.

Orbit is achieved anytime you reach a balance between gravity and centrifical force! Base on that, you could climb with a specially designed craft to the edge of space using lift like an airplane an then use a quick burning booster to finish the job! Noone ever said the a ten story high rocket, was the only way into space!

Tim

The black shuttle was an idea during early 80s. But it was not that shuttle, that we now know, but suborbital horizontaly launched military aircraft, based on early shuttle design (without external fuel tank and additional rockets).

Originally posted by ghost
That is assuming that they all spacecraft need a standard launch trajectory to reach orbit. In theory, there is a way to achieve a non-ballistic launched orbit.

Orbit is achieved anytime you reach a balance between gravity and centrifical force! Base on that, you could climb with a specially designed craft to the edge of space using lift like an airplane an then use a quick burning booster to finish the job! Noone ever said the a ten story high rocket, was the only way into space!

Tim

Good point.
If Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites with Virgin Records funding of just shy of $20 mil ( i think) can put a spacecraft up using a piggyback and launch method, one has to wonder what the US military could do with a portion of that $11 billion + in black projects per year.

Some very interesting points are being made. To try and clarify a little. This friend of mine never said how or where the Black Shuttle was launched. Only that he had seen it being launched. He never said that it was the same exact type that NASA has, only that the military had its own shuttle and it was being flown when all the NASA shuttles were grounded. It is very reasonable to assume that maybe it was not a ground launch. The more I think about what he told me the more that makes sense. He also said that there was a media blackout everytime this thing went up, however it went up. He was very vague on details but just enough info to make my ears perk up. Perhaps it was like 'Space Ship One' using a mother ship to take it to the brink of space and letting it go. If done at night under very high secruity, I can see how this could go unnoticed. Sorry I can't get more details for everyone who wishes to know more. All I can add is this guy recently retired from Naval Intelligence as an Officer and was in places and jobs that would have given him the opportunity to witness some highly
classified events. According to him this had been going on for sometime. He also added that we would be totally blown away if we actually knew what the military has in its Black Programs.

Here is an interesting though, maybe the navy built an enormous floating launch pad, they took it out in the middle of the pacific and launched it. They could probably get away with it there.

right now I am posting some links for my self, for future reference.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

www.xcor.com...

www.abo.fi...

www.spaceandtech.com...

www.f104g.demon.co.uk...

history.nasa.gov...

www.astronautix.com...

www.x-rocket.com...

[edit on 4-8-2005 by iksmodnad]

iksmodnad

Ever hear of Sea Launch. Its a self proplelled platform that is used to launch rockets out in the ocean.





[edit on 6-8-2005 by ULTIMA1]

[edit on 6-8-2005 by ULTIMA1]

If there have been manned mission to space that have taken place at sea. Chances are it was off a vassal that is so top secrete no one not even the president knows of.

I doubt one exist but it is possible.

Sea launches are an interesting idea maybe we should include some of that information into the project.

Originally posted by RichardPrice
Actually, tests and space launches are rarely something that everyone is informed about. The trajectories involved in both are such that its immediately obvious only 30 seconds after launch that orbit is the goal and not a strike, otherwise the trajectories would be slightly flatter and in certain directions.

On the contrary, back in 1988 the Ballistic Missile Launch Notification Agreement was signed as a bilateral agreement between the U.S. and U.S.S.R. requiring each nation to notify the other party, "no less than twenty-four hours in advance, of the planned date, launch area, and area of impact for any launch of a strategic ballistic missile." The treaty entered into force on May 31, 1988 and also included civilian missiles using the first stage of such a ballistic missile.

This agreement did not apply to small research rockets etcetera, which led to the situation that an unsually large and fast Norwegian research missile nearly triggered the Russians to a full scale nuclear war back in 1995.

This incident directly led to the signing of the Memorandum of Understanding on Notifications of Missile Launches. This among others states:

Each Party shall provide pre-launch and post-launch notifications for launches of ballistic missiles that meet the range or altitude criteria set forth in paragraph 4 of this Memorandum and, with rare exceptions, pre-launch and post-launch notifications for launches of space launch vehicles. Each Party, at its discretion and in support of the objectives of this Memorandum, may also provide information in a timely fashion on other launches and objects, including de-orbiting spacecraft, and geophysical experiments and other work in near-earth space that are capable of disrupting the normal operation of equipment of the early warning systems of the Parties.

So it is dubious the US would risk nuclear war with Russia by launching something unannounced that could be seen as a nuclear missile launch. If such a thing as black space launches exists, in my opinion it would have to be a spaceplane - not a missile - which would not be recognized or show up as a missile launch.

I couldn't agree with Simon more.
If there is such a black space project going on, it would nearly have to be a spaceplane.
The technology has been available since DynaSOAR and even before...

Hey.. not to bunt yall off topic but India and Pakistan jsut formalised an agreement of the sorts mentioned above regarding prior notification of a ballistic
missile test..
They're also planning to get a hotline in place..
Does China have such measures in place with any country??