What are the ways to penerate Tank amour nowadays?

Not sure I'm on the right forums for this (1st thread) but here goes.

I read a few thread about modern tanks here. Most of the time I see that nowadays, Tanks are so well protected, that they seem invicble.

So my question is this. How are we going to penerate modern tank amour, since its "THAT" good?

Better HEAT rounds? Better Sabots? Or just blow them up with a nuke.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by Humster]

Who said that tanks can't be penetrated nowadays? It doesn't matter how well a tank is equipped because there are always things and situations to penetrate it.

The only weapon that I know that could basically penetrate all, yes ALL tanks is LOSAT, a hypervolecity ATGM that doesn't use any explosives, it penetrates a tank with pure brute force. The missile travels at a speed several times higher than all other ATGMs and the missile litterally just crash into the target and penetrate it with pure kinetic energy. The RHaE rating is top secret however one can expect it to be higher than the most powerful ATGM in service today, so basically >1200mm with some people expecting it to top 2000mm.

Read more about the LOSAT here www.globalsecurity.org...

LOSAT is great, however it is HUGE compared to other ATGMs and can't be deployed with a normal two/one man squad. A ATGM that might interest you is the Chinese HJ-9 ATGM. It promises to be one of the world's most deadly and cost effective system with a penetration of >1200mm RHAE to targets fitted with ERA. It can be mounted on practically any vehicle or a 4x4 specially designed APC fitted specially for this missile with 4 ready to be launched at any time and another 8 stored inside the APC. The fire control system of the HJ-9 is all digital electronic technology. The missile guidance is semi-automatic. The launcher of the HJ-9 includes optical sight, thermal sight, TV goniometry, laser command transmission, and missile launch mechanism. The operator only needs to keep the sight's cross-hair on the target, and the system automatically transmits the laser command to the missile until it hits the target. It can be mounted on a tripod as well. It has been said to be extremely cost effective and extremely deadly for tactics such as people's war, city war and attack of tanks without armoured support. HJ-9 has a range of 5 Km, can also be heli launched and an extended range version will surface in the next few years for APC mounted and heli mounted versions. This links needs more updates but here is some info on the HJ-9 www.sinodefence.com...

The Russian AT-14 Kornet E is also a powerful ATGM promising 1100mm penetration to target fitted with ERA. The bad thing about the Kornet is that its range is limited to 3.5 Km because it is wire guided and there is only that much wire for the missile to use and the Kornet cannot be fired over trees, power lines, telephone lines, or water because the missile would malfunction. Read more of the AT-14 missile here www.globalsecurity.org...

Russian AT-15 was made to correct the problems that AT-14 Kornet had. The development of the Khrizantema missile system provides the Russian Army with a weapon system that will significantly upgrade its antitank capability. Even with the improved capabilities the AT-14 Kornet has over earlier systems, an ATGM with all-weather, day or night, immunity to countermeasures, and fire and forget capabilities was still highly desired. In July 1996, Russia's KBM Engineering Design Bureau revealed a dual-guidance missile system with the desired capabilities. A new long-range ATGM, the Khrizantema (9M123), capable of firing six-kilometer-range supersonic missiles, incorporating both radar and laser command guidance receivers, is in its last stage of testing. KBM expects production to begin in 1998. The key role of the Khrizantema (Russian for "chrysanthemum") is to destroy armored vehicles at long range. In addition, it could be used to destroy bunkers, and to engage slow- or low-flying helicopters. The Khrizantema missile system is mounted on a modified BMP-3 infantry combat vehicle chassis. The chassis is designated the 9M157-2, and has the amphibious capability of the BMP-3.

Two models of the 9M123 missile have been developed. One has a tandem high-explosive antitank (HEAT) warhead; designated the 9M123-2, it apparently can penetrate over 1000 millimeters of steel armor protected by explosive reactive armor (ERA). The second model, the 9M123-F-2, has a high explosive warhead. The maximum range of the missile is 6000 meters with a maximum speed of 400 meters per second; thus it is supersonic. The missile has two movable control surfaces at its rear, with four wrap-around wings about three-quarters of the way down its body toward the rear.

For the first time in the world, an automatic radar target detection and tracking system, with simultaneous missile control during its guidance to the target, was developed for the Khrizantema ATGM. The unique feature of the missile is that it has two modes of guidance: automatic, where it is guided by a roof-mounted radar; and by a semi-automatic laser beam rider, using the sight mounted in the front of the hull on the right side. There is no known comparable missile in the West under development or in service with a similar guidance system.

The Russian Army is now faced with the option of purchasing the less expensive BMP-3 mounted Kornet system, which is a follow-on to the AT-5, or the more expensive Khrizantema, a more powerful system capable of engaging more targets at greater ranges, possibly employing the Kornet at regimental level and the Khrizantema at division level. Regardless of its placement in the Russian Army, many nations may find it desirable and allocate a portion of their budgets to purchase the extremely capable Khrizantema missile system.

The Russians, Chinese and Americans is probably the best in making ATGMs with Russians having the most experience and Americans having the most advanced technology and China producing cost effective systems for extended length warfare.

Nuclear weapons would really only be practical if you were going to use them agains a large sized formation of tanks. Such was a potential NATO strategy back in the Cold War. For going after smaller numbers its not a practicle option. There are many ATW out that do a decent job and another tank firing SABOT rounds will get the job done eventualy.

Now if you are Siberian Tiger you would go on about Iraqi insurgents fielding some sort of plasma rifle

I'd like to mention that most of these penetration stats are for flat steel armor with no ballistic shape.
A tank with sloped or curved armor, especially composite, will be resistant to the various shape charges which work best against a flat target. Examples being the forward armor of the Abrams, which is sloped and slighty angled.
Better examples are the new Black Eagle tank, which features curved, sloped, composite turret armor. The dome-type ballistic shape is a trademark of FSU tanks. Current western MBTs seem to rely more on material resistance, mostly due to the low numbers compared to the FSU numbers, and also because it makes production of composite armor simplier.

Regardless of the situation, the tanks worse enemy will always be another tank. They are designed to fight other tanks, and excel at it.
I would rate current tank guns and their respective rounds over any infantry or IFV based ATGW. Not only because of their relative cheapness, range, and amount of rounds carried, but also their ability to use both kinetic or HEAT rounds.

what about a tanker gun such as this:

Steyr 15.2mm cartridge schematic


Caliber(s): 15.2mm Steyr APFSDS
Operation: long recoil, semi-automatic
Barrel: 1200 mm
Weight: 18 kg
Length: 1800 mm
Feed Mechanism: 5 rounds detachable box mag.


The development of this interesting weapon began in mid-1980s, when Austrian company Steyr-Mannlicher AG decided to develop a long-range anti-materiel rifle (AMR) - a modern equivalent of the WW2-era antitank rifles. Main targets for AMR are light armoured vehicles, helicopters, installations such as radar cabins, missile launchers, fuel tanks etc. To achieve desired effective range of at least 1000 meters, Steyr engineers first decided to use APDS (armour piercing, discarding sabot), or sub-caliber, ammunition. Development started from 12.7mm cartridges, and later Steyr developed a 14.5mm APFSDS (Arnour percing, fin stabilised, discarding sabot) ammunition in 14.5mm caliber and built few prototypes with smooth bores and semi-automatic actions, called Steyr AMR 5075. Further development led to even bigger caliber of 15.2mm fith same ultra-high velocity APFSDS projectiles. This system is called Steyr IWS 2000 (Infantry Weapon System 2000) and currently is probably in Adsvanced Development status or ready for adoption.

IWS 2000 is wery formidable weapon. It fires 20 gramm (308 grains) tungsten dart (fleschette) with muzzle velocity of 1450 meters per second (4750 fps). At 1000 meters this projectile will penetrate a 40 mm of RHA (rollded homogenous steel armour) and will result in serious secondary fragmentation effect behind the armour. That said, it will penetrate two walls of any modern APC at one kilometer range. The trajectory is very flat and does not rise higher than 800 mm above the line of sight when fired to 1000 meters. The cartridge is of somewhat original design, and has plastic case with steel head and base. The projectile is concealed within a plastic sabot.

The rifle itself also is very interesting. Firs, it uses rare long-recoil system, when barrel recoils along with the bolt for significant lenght. At the end of the recoil, bolt unlocks from the barrel by rotating and held back, and barrel returns into forward position, ejecting a spent case. Bolt stays at the rearmost position while barrel moves, and then also moves forward, chambering a new round from the side-mounted magazine and finally locking rigidly to the barrel. This design allows for better recoil disttibution over a longer period of time. Huge muzzle brake also contributes to recoil control, so felt recoil of the IWS 2000 is descibed as a similar to the large-caliber sporting rifle. Five round detachable box magazine is located at the right side of the receiver and inclined down for about 45 degrees. The smooth-bore barrel can be easily detached, so rifle can be carried disassembled into two man-portable packs. Plastics are used where possible to reduce the weight of the gun. IWS 2000 is equipped with bipod and a rear leg under the buttstock. It is also equipped with 10X telescope as a standard.

This is probably the most powerful modern anti-materiel rifle, and while it is not a true "sniper" rifle, it is well worth mentioning. The future of this design is also unclear, sice it requires ammunition of a brand new type.

Bottom line: molten metal penetrates metal best.

Whether you bring the metal to the target or create it at the contact point, it matters not.

DU rounds are so impressive because they are reactive, they heat to incredible temperatures on impact, boring a hole through the armor and creating more molten metal. They work on the same principle as cruise missles designed to penetrate concrete.

Of course, if you leaned against a tank for a million years or so, you'd fall through to the other side. Take the same principle and apply it elsewhere.

If you can agitate the molecules and move them out of the way in the span of a few seconds, you've saved yourself a million years of waiting.

Hence, energy at impact is the best measure of efficacy.

The anti-material rifles are nifty, but they're highly specialized and don't measure up to self propelled ATGMs in terms of penetration. Of course they are much more economical. If you can put a single $7.50 round into the manifold instead of wasting a $25,000.00 missle blowing the tank to kingdom come, you're way ahead in the battle.

Those plasma rifles would be neat...

Microwave technology might offer some options once we have a land platform capable of meeting HE(High Energy, not High Explosive)weapon power requirements.

Man portable HE weapons are impossible until battery technology advances.]]

I'll be interested to see space-based tank killers, loaded with tungsten rods. That would be a highly effective way of reducing the enemy's entire mobile armor force while they lined up for gas before the first engagement. The Sat drops 100 rods in a shimmering arc, and the tanks vanish into shards when the energy equivalent of a few KT lands on the top hatch or rear engine cover. The psychological factor alone is worth the cost.

To be fair, a .50 cal can disable a tank with a clever shot, so can a standard landmine offset to knock pins and detonated remotely instead of via pressure. IEDs have proven quite effective at penetrating armor also, no?

This rifle would be fairly useless against tank armor, and would also prove less useful against some of the stronger IFVs, like Israels APC, which uses composite and reactive armor on their troop carriers.

This round would also probably glace off the rounded or angled armor of modern MBTs and would require a good attack angle, such as a flank or rear shot to even hope of doing damage.

Widely exported T-72 has up to 800mm of steel or composite armor. All other MBT's have far more.

The best way to penetrate tank armor and decimate a tank is by using the AGM-114 Hellfire missile.

Originally posted by Humster
So my question is this. How are we going to penerate modern tank amour, since its "THAT" good?

particle beam weapon would do the trick...
www.tldm.org...

or

Hypersonic weapon...
www.newscientist.com...

The one about the "death ray" has 0% proof and is completely hearsay.
The hypersonic weapon wouldnt be effective against a tank because its a mobile target and these use GPS, if it ever it built.

RPG-7 antitank grenade launcher (USSR / Russia)

RPG-7V antitank grenade launcher with PGO-7 telescope sight and a PG-7VM grenade in ready to load condition (with launch charge attached)

RPG-7D antitank grenade launcher (version for airborne troops), disassembled for transportation / airdrop


PG-7VM HEAT grenade cut-out


PG-7VL HEAT grenade


PG-7VR tandem (dual-warhead) HEAT grenade


TBG-7V Thermobaric (FAE) grenade


OG-7V fragmentation antipersonnel grenade (1999)

Caliber: 40 mm launcher; 40 and 70 - 105mm warheads (depending on the grenade model)
Type: recoilless launch + rocket booster
Overall length: 650 mm
Weight: 6.3 kg unloaded, with PGO-7 telescope sight
Effective range: 200-500 meters, depending on the grenade type

Some grenades, used in RPG-7 (Soviet/Russian origins) PG-7V PG-7VL PG-7VR TBG-7V OG-7V
Year of adoption 1961 1977 1988 1988 1999
Warhead caliber, mm 85 93 64 / 105 105 40
Weight, kg 2.2 2.6 4.5 4.5 2.0
Effective range, meters 500 500 200 200 350
Armor penetration, mm 260 500 ERA + 600-700 - -


The RPG-7 is a further development of the previous RPG-2 antitank grenade launcher. RPG-7, in its first version, known as RPG-7V, has been adopted by Soviet army in 1961, and still is widely fielded in Russia and at least 50 more countries. By far, RPG-7 can be considered as one of the most successful antitank grenade launchers ever made. Initially thought as an anti-armor weapon, it latter has been adopted for other fire-support missions by introduction of various types of grenades, such as anti-infantry HE-FRAG, multi-purpose Thermobaric / FAE, and some other types of ammunition. The antitank grenades for RPG-7 also came a long way, from original PG-7V grenade, with penetration of about 260mm/10inches of RHA, and up to 500mm/20inches of RHA or 1.5 meters/5ft of brick wall with single-warhead PG-7VL grenade, developed in 1977. By the late 1980s, a tandem-type PG-7VR grenade has been introduced. This grenade has two warheads and is intended against the most modern tanks, fitted with ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor). Front warhead sets off the ERA, and second warhead then penetrates more than 600mm/24in of armor.
The RPG-7 is a shoulder fired, single-shot, smoothbore recoilless launcher. Grenades are loaded from the front, and the rear of the barrel is fitted with venturi nozzle. Because of the recoilless design, there is a dangerous backblast zone, more than 20 meters/60ft long. The antitank grenades are of combination type, using a charge of smokeless powder for RCL-type launch. Once grenade reaches safe distance from the shooter (about 10-20 meters), the built-in rocket booster engine ignites and further accelerates the grenade, greatly enhancing the effective range (up to 500+ meters for single warhead grenades, up to 200+ meters for much heavier tandem or FAE grenades). Because of increase in range, RPG-7 is usually issued with 2.7X fixed magnification optical sight, designated PGO-7. The sight has a range-finding scale for typical targets (tanks) with height of 2.7m/9ft, and windage adjustment scales. RPG-7 also fitted with backup iron sights. RPG-7 uses mechanical ignition system with manually cocked external hammer, and a single-action trigger. Because of this, grenade must be properly aligned with the firing mechanism upon loading.
Each AT grenade consists of a large-caliber HEAT warhead with base fuze, with the 40mm diameter rocket engine behind. The rocket nozzles are located at the front of the engine, close to the warhead. The tail of the rocket is fitted with folding stabiliztator fins, which are extended when grenade leaves the barrel. The launch charge, made of black powder, is loaded into a combustible cardboard case, and attached to the rear of the grenade prior to loading into launcher. Grenades and launch charges are carried in special backpacks. By the original soviet standards, grenadier carries two rounds, and his assistant carries three more. There were several minor upgrades to the basic design of the RPG-7 in USSR and Russia, the most important being the RPG-7D, with two-part takedown barrel, which was issued to the airborne troops. Since RPG-7 was, and still is manufactured in many countries (such as Bulgaria, China, Iraq and Romania, to name a few), there are plenty of modifications in launcher, and, more important, in grenades.
RPG-7 is a simple and inexpensive weapon, yet it possess a high threat to most modern tanks, and also can serve in a number of other roles, making it a true one-man artillery.
(i dont know how post pics,help would be appreciated)
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Just two types of many dozens of different 84mm rounds - the rocket-boosted HEAT round at left, and the HE-FRAG round at right, both made in Belgium by Mecar.

Carl Gustaf m/48 - M2 Carl Gustaf m/86 - M3
Caliber 84 mm 84 mm
Type recoilless recoilless ( + rocket booster on some types of ammunition)
Overall length 1130 mm 1130 mm
Weight, empty w. telescope sight 14 kg 9.5 kg
Effective range 150 meters against tanks
700 meters against stationary targets 150 meters against tanks
700 meters against stationary targets
1000 meters against stationary targets with rocket-boosted ammunition
Armour penetration up to 400 mm ERA + more than 500 mm

Swedish arms designers began to experiment with recoilless antitank rifles in early 1940s. Their first design, a shoulder-fired, single shot weapon, fired a 20mm solid projectile from a rifled barrel. This design has been adopted by Swedish army in 1942 as the m/42, but its small-caliber solid projectile was hardly effective against the new tanks, which emerged during the Second World war. By the mid-1940s, Swedish designers adopted the idea of the shaped-charge HEAT ammunition, and by the 1946 produced their first prototype of the large-caliber recoilless rifle, which fired HEAT grenades. This single-shot, shoulder fired weapon quickly evolved into the "Granatgevär 8.4cm m/48 Carl-Gustaf", or "Grenade rifle, caliber 84mm, model of 1948". This simple and effective weapon attracted significant interest and has been adopted by a significant number of military forces around the world. Other than Sweden, Carl Gustaf recoilless rifles were adopted by Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Germany, USA and several other countries. Initial production was by the FFV factories, latter transferred to the SAAB-Bofors Dynamics AB, which is the current manufacturer of both M3 rifle and 84mm ammunition. The ammunition also is manufactured in several countries which use the Carl-Gustaf launchers, including the Belgium and India.
While the Carl-Gustaf recoilless rifle / launcher was initially devised as an antitank weapon, its tactical role was quickly expanded with adoption of various other types of ammunition, such as high-explosive fragmentation rounds, close-defense shrapnel-type rounds, smoke, illumination and several other types of warheads. In fact, the Carl-Gustaf series recoilless rifles / launchers are among the most versatile weapons of the "one man artillery" type, extremely popular and widely used. Their only drawback is the bulk and weight of the launcher itself, which is significantly heavier than its major rival, the venerable RPG-7 antitank grenade launcher.

The Carl-Gustaf series recoilless rifles / launchers are single shot, breech loading weapons with rifled barrels. Unitary ammunition of 84mm caliber is loaded into aluminum cases with open bottoms, closed by plastic pressure discs. The primers are located at the side of the cartridge case, so the round must be properly aligned in the bore upon the loading. To achieve that, the case rim has a special indexing recess. Most types of projectiles are just warheads which are "blown out" of the barrel by the propellant charge, but some most recently developed types of ammunition has built-in rocket boosters, which are ignited as the round reaches safe distance from the shooter, greatly improving the maximum effective range. The rear part of the barrel is fitted with venturi nozzle, which is hinged to allow loading of the ammunition and ejection of the fired cases or unfired rounds. The M2 (m/48) barrels are made from steel, and the M3 (m/86) barrels are made from thin steel liners enclosed into polymer wrapping, so the M3 launcher is significantly lighter. The firing unit consists of the pistol grip with the trigger and manual safety, which is linked to the ignition module at the rear of the weapon by the tube, located below and to the right of the barrel. Under the barrel, there's also a shoulder rest, an adjustable bipod, and a front support grip. The Carl-Gustaf recoilless rifles / launchers are fitted with folding open sights, located at the left side of the barrel, but usually issued with telescope sight of 2X or 3X magnification, which has range-finding reticule and can be adjusted for temperature and wing conditions.
Standard crew for Carl-Gustaf recoilless rifle / launcher is two men, shooter and loader. Ammunition is usually carried in special plastic containers, which hold two types of ammunition each. Most modern HEAT rounds for Carl-Gustaf feature either single or a tandem shaped-charge warhead, and a rocket booster for increased range, and can penetrate up to 500 mm of armor behind the ERA protection.

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Use the gun that guy uses on Tremors 2, that would penetrate anything, lol

a single rpg-7 to the top hatch would pretty much open the tank to disabling from within. of course that would rely on how skillfull the rocketeer is.

Thanks for sharing guys.

So which way is the most effective?

Exploding devices or Kinetic force?

use the new upgraded rpg7p i9 think it is with a double warhead

If you hit the cupola of a modern tank, you are one damm good shot.

Seriously though, modern tank guns mounted on tanks or IFVs are the best way to destroy tanks.

Just wait until hypersonic missiles with sifting body technology come out, then you could hit a moving target.
But as of now if you want to be absolutely sure that whatever you hit from any point will be destroyed I would go with the LOSAT or some of its offspring's like CKEM or HTAM.

DU (Depleated Uranium)! As far as I know, they currently don't have armor that will stop it! It comes in two version, M-829,which is fired from the M-1A1 tank, and the 30mm ammo from A-10's GAU-8 Avenger Gattling Gun! The DU rounds are unoffically called "Silver Bullets".

Wonder if the military was planning to go warewolf hunting, because they brought along the Silver Bullets?

Tim
ATS Dierector of Counter-Ignorance

[edit on 15-7-2005 by ghost]