US Media Use Bombs to Trash UK Liberties

US Media are lining up to point out UK's long tradition of freedom has resulted in these bombings.

No Sh*t Sherlock!


From a more distant perspective, the American press has taken an early opportunity to do something it felt incapable of on September 12 2001, and apply analytical distance to the events.

For a Londoner reading major articles in the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post and The New York Times this weekend, it was difficult to recognise the city being described

blogs.guardian.co.uk...

A concerted attempt by the NWO to bring UK into line or just ignorance / prejudice by US hacks?

Yep agree probably a bit of both.....

londonistan well maybe better leedistan? yep knock and have a go at the British when they couldnt look or report or invetigate even one of many facts that needed questioning after 9/11.... American journalists.... nope puppets if you ask me.

A concerted attempt by the NWO to bring UK into line or just ignorance / prejudice by US hacks?

I simply see it as media vesus media.
The US media may be getting back at the UK media for its digs and rants concerning the US being this and that. Ever thought of that angle? Of course not. Its always the typical "ignorance and prejudice" by the US.....

They tell me that in varying and debatable forms and circles, what goes around, comes around. Think that is true, to some degree?

US hypocritical stances meets UK hypocritical stances: media versus media digs.




seekerof

[edit on 12-7-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
The US media may be getting back at the UK media for its digs and rants concerning the US being this and that. Ever thought of that angle? Of course not. Its always the typical "ignorance and prejudice" by the US.....

Good take on it! Calling London Londonistan is an unforgivable sin, but this:



is A OK



Anyway I don't see your government opening up your country to people who want to kill you civil liberties...quite the opposite.

When it comes to actual civil liberties of real citizens, the U.S. far outpaces the U.K.

The journal Foreign Affairs has an intersting and timely article on this, Europe's Angry Muslims.

The author, "Director of the Immigration and National Security Program at the Nixon Center and a nonresident Fellow at the Brookings Institution", notes that:

The Dutch reaction to van Gogh's assassination, the British reaction to jihadist abuse of political asylum, and the French reaction to the wearing of the headscarf suggest that Europe's multiculturalism has begun to collide with its liberalism, privacy rights with national security. Multiculturalism was once a hallmark of Europe's cultural liberalism, which the British columnist John O'Sullivan defined as "free[dom] from irksome traditional moral customs and cultural restraints." But when multiculturalism is perceived to coddle terrorism, liberalism parts company. The gap between the two is opening in France, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and to some extent even in Germany, where liberalism stretched a form of religious tolerance so much so that it allowed the Hamburg cell to turn prayer rooms into war rooms with cocky immunity from the German police.

[emphasis added]

The State and People allways have to balance personal freedom and personal security. Benjamin Franklin noted, to paraphrase, that 'those how give up essential liberities for temporary safety deserve neither". Franklin apparently worded it rather specifically, noting that, obviously, some degree of freedom has to be given up in order to ensure a lot of security. Indeed, this is a large part of the Federalism arguement, and perhaps the failure of the orginal US constitution, the Article of Confederation, demonstrate that centralization and state involvment is important.
The discussion takes a different turn in europe, let alone Britain, which still has a house of feudal Lords and a ruling Sovreign.
But, nevertheless, there is apparently an issue of assimilation in Britain, which lags far behind the US in incorporating Arab and other muslim immigrants. Tony Blair, i beleive, had recently urged immigrants to emphasize "Britishness", and something like this attack might be a good experiment for immigrant populations on demonstrating how one can have 'british' character as a muslim.

Nygdan
I think you are bang out of order. Your argument is and analysis of liberalism and State control is very succint, infact I was thinking the best post I have read in some time as it encapsulted a lot of the theory and practise so well. I couldnt have put it better myself. However.... I then saw

But, nevertheless, there is apparently an issue of assimilation in Britain, which lags far behind the US in incorporating Arab and other muslim immigrants

I take it youve been watching too much CNN or Fox though admiring your other posts i doubt it..... Nygdan have you ever been to britian? spent anytime in the community away from hotels?

London is the most multicultural and diverse city in the world. All nations of the world were settling in the UK when America still was 'tended' by its original Indian Population before america was even thought about. My great grandmother who is British was a wife of Sea Captian in the middle of the 1800,s her best friends were as follows 1.Somali wife of her husbands first mate (Somali Sailor very very good sailors) 2. Asain woman who husband had set up the Chinese shop in the Docks area of the city she lived in which she visited and the two families became very close.

My great grandfather and mother where seen as upper/middle class at thetime living in the most expensive part of the city (sea captains jobs where once very highly respected and paid) they were members of the local church, political parties etc. They were never seen as strange or recieved any hassles from the rest of their community due to these associations? why? Because as the UK was the busiest commercial and trading centre in the world for many many years and with the Naval History, our communities were already integrated then. In the late 1800's.

We allow asyslum to Muslims who are refused it everywhere else when other countries will let them go home and be executed. This openess, tolerance of others beliefs values and religeon, rather than forcing asimilation on people to conform/fit in is what has made the United Kingdom the desired destination for muslims and other races. If you believe there is no integration I really believe you are just stating someone else false uniformed, untrue view Fox? Washington Post?

One of my close friends is a Muslim, he was born here in the UK but still practises.....no integration.... mmm lets see just one example, we go to London to visit his dad some years ago..... I have a particular moral choice diet arrangement i.e. vegatarianism, have followed this for many years. Well we were welcomed into this Muslim community and a big party for the family was going on that night. My friends Dad's wife overheard my friend discussing with me food arrangements for later saying he would arrange a seperate meal for me... All the women went into the kitchen nattering away in their mother tongue.... they all disapear in two to three cars...so anyhow later on they return and are all at full steam in the kitchen... the meal time arrives about 20 people their...all the food was brought out...I soon noticed that all the food was the same for everyone..... I didnt want to eat anything till I asked my friend if it was meat free...it was a bit embaressing because I didnt want to upset any of the hard work the cooks had done. My mate saw my predicament, looked around at the meals and could see we were all served the same... he lent across to his Dad's new wife and asked her if she had something seperate veggy for me.... she started laughing and all the Women did too.... They had heard me and my friend talking earlier, they respected my beliefs and out of respect for those beliefs and I suppose for my friendship with their Son.... the women had all gone shopping and got extra food so that we all had vegetarian food, everyone, they stored the original food and cooked for 20 people all new food. MMM no integration their of beliefs and cultures?

I was asked to be the best Man at Sihk weeding too but couldnt do it due to work committments at the time. There is more diversity, respect, pride and integration in the UK than any other place on the Earth.

These guys who were the bombers were born here, spoke only English until a few years ago and brainwashed. One was a teachers assistant one worked in a youth club, the issue is not integration because these guys never had or wanted a beard, or not to be part of our society. From initial news reports all of them at the past or currently had White english Girlfriends and Friends. One of the fathers of one of the Bombers was local businessman.... he owned a fish and chip shop and take away, a local shop and also a taxi firm. He is a member of the School Board. He is a regular voluntary worker. He helps his political party of choice on election time.... no integration? hes o integrated he probably more of a Middle aged Bald Fat Republican/Tory than many 100% british. So if integration is the reason as your trying to Posit that one bomber shouldnt have existed.

Its brainwashing and Ideology not integration.
Uni Bomber? maybe the American people should integrate the luddites more eh? Oh of course you have integration all worked out.... funny that 4 weeks ago on TV in Europe showed taht trial of the Klu Klux Clan member going to court for murder many many years ago....hey that was then though its all ok now, it was ok to do it at the same time as your 'integrated model' of a Country still had 'no black' signs on buses and the kids were kept apart in schools... yep sorry thats the thing that led to your amazing integration, yep They
had no integration in the UK ofcourse...hey but we abolished slavery and any form of public/private discrimination in the mid 1800's. In America, Abraham Lincoln signed the emancipation proclamation in 1863, ending slavery...so good there, but one differance in the UK no slavery meant just that, no seperate names, shops, schools or anything full integration! sorry but America was still 'integrating so well' 100 years later with burning crosses.

That being that and I feel my point backed up and discussed openly and honestly in the whole big picture the subconscious mind of the american people just cant wait to have a dig at the British... The USA' s standing politically moraly economicaly has plummeted over the last 5 years in world views. To be fair besides Israel (who do it just because they have to/rely on the USA) you have had no allies or friends.

Election riging
Corporate Scandal/Fraud on truly huge scales
Lying to the UN Fraudulant Evidence
Duplicity of the Goverment in 911 (anyone who denies a link of some type really needs to seek some help the evidence is overwhelming, blatant and proved)
Invasion War
Invasion War again
Breaking the Geneva Convention on Human Rights (and also disalowing red cross visits on several occasions....even the Nazi's in the concentration camps allowed red cross full access as they wished)
No Global Warming ?? are you **ck*ing insane, are you abel to read and have any real scientists at all? yep its ok as long as oil and stocks are ok ^)ck all of the life on earth... nope everyone else can sign but we wont.

So Nygan far from their being an issue on integration within the UK the whole issue has been the integration of the opposing world view/actions of the USA and its place in the world. The USA has been as said slipping in all internation viewpoints, and the sight of good ole GWB coming to the UK (with his aircraft carrier sooo sad) whilst Britian and Europeans were all focusing on integration issues like the Live 8 and make poverty history campaign, when our political leaders were working soo hard to share the wealth of the world and create
A WORLD with no THIRD WORLD ...(BUsh gives more Aid to israel than all of africa nd latin america if you take out columbia and egypt.... so 0.001% of the worlds pop get more than nearly two continents....mmm real integration there!) there was no drive like in europe especially in the UK
to help these people t make this something differant, society the press ignored it practically till it was on.... most of the people i know in Europe started getting involved in february this year... Britain and the british
were showing our true nature and it was Human, Optimistic, Realistic, Caring, Exciting and the truth. The whole worlds media was just waiting again to slate Bush for his oppo
sing views on Aid/Trade/Environment than the rest of Humanity

please keep showing us Uncivilised Undemocratic Unintegrated people your soo succesful way please please tell us before you invade and force it on us...well thats the USA way eh? our way , integrate now or we will force you with money or bullets? imlearning each day thank you all of America & people like Nygdan who show us the hidden treasure of the model for a racialy, religeous, and fair integrated society...im in sooooo much awe!


well seeing all of that and our olympic win, the differance in reactions perceptions by the Iraqis on the ground (when was the last time a british unit hit? happens about once a month the soldiers wear no helmets they respect the people = they dont get targetted so often) The US nearly daily.

So with the plummeting of the US view pretty conclusively since GWB came into power, these extra shuffling

Britain does not need to integrate any more. We believe in true democracy and human rights not the American Version. We live side by side each other with our pride in who we are (be it muslim black or white or even american) where we came from and wht our morals and Values are, without loosing respect for the traditions and heritage of other people. We dont need to strip peoples heritage, religion or traditions for them to be integrated, thats cloning and repression not integration.

Truthfully Nygdan list the current morals and values of the american people by their society and government actions and leaning. for the last 10 years.

No do the same with the UK. mmm if your honest America doesnot come out on top. However that is very subjective depending on your own vlaue/Belief system. But in reality things done action
taken the UK is leagues ahead of the US. Sorry but true.

Keep yours to yourself and stop enforcing yourselves on the rest of the world or slating them. No one else believes wants or cares about the american society model especially not on relation to integration. Hey Nygdan why dont you pop up today to the Mexican border and chat to the illegal armed civilians who are trying to integrate so well? im sure the mexicans and the good ole boys will agree with you.



PS I have been to both the california florida and new york. I have very close friends in the states. I fell in love with an American girl some years ago, we are still friends and close im popping across to Cali in two months time. Whenever ive been to the USA I have stayed with these friends in neighborhoods and with the local community I really did not see this amazing ntegration, LA was the most secularised place ive been in the world (and traveled alot). So I am just making it clear im not a USA basher... I admire and love much of the American People and culture but reality and truth is important.

Elf





[edit on 14-7-2005 by asala]

Agree 100% Elf with what you say about UK and race relations. To say we lag behind the US in this regard is ill-informed and prejudiced.

An American girl from Georgia once swore blind to me exactly the same thing - PMSL.

BTW you missed out on the Sikh wedding - one I attended was the best wedding I've ever been to! (the two girls with us were made 'honorary men' for the day so they'd someone to talk to - a touching gesture).

I've had many dealings with UK muslims and have had no problems - apart from where mixed relationships were involved.

US is very racially divided in my experience and black americans are amazed when you talk to them / hostile until they realise you're Brit etc (try explaining Welsh!). A veneer of political correctness does not equal integration.

Recent documentary here showed how the experience of coming to a non-segregated UK in 1943-44 had profound affect on black US troops [although UK did introduce hanging for black US troops (only) convicted of rape (not a UK capital offence) as a sop to the racism of US forces overall]. A US vet boasted how he's killed a black US soldier for kissing a white girl over 50 years ago.

You've had the problem for a long time - we haven't; although the deluge of 'ghetto' culture is ensuring we take on your twisted values.

>


[edit on 14-7-2005 by asala]

[edit on 14/7/05 by CTID56092]

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Nygdan
moderator or not I think you are bang out of order.

Having the duties of a moderator doesn't mean that I'm also allways right. I mean, I am allways right, but thats got nothing to do with being a moderator.

Your argument is and analysis of liberalism and State control is very succint, infact I was thinking the best post I have read in some time as it encapsulted a lot of the theory and practise so well. I couldnt have put it better myself. However.... I then saw

But, nevertheless, there is apparently an issue of assimilation in Britain, which lags far behind the US in incorporating Arab and other muslim immigrants

I take it youve been watching too much CNN or Fox though admiring your other posts i doubt it.....

have you ever been to britian?

I've only been there twice, but the information I am getting for that is comming from these same reports.

London is the most multicultural and diverse city in the world.

Precisely. Its mutlicultural. Assimilation, in this sense, means unicultural. In the US, lots of middle easterners are strongly americanized, whereas in britain, the immigrants haven't anglicized to nearly the same degree. They very much retain their old cultural forms and mores.

We allow asyslum to Muslims who are refused it everywhere else when other countries will let them go home and be executed.

Yes, and this is the big problem. The people that are leaving the middle east are of two groups, people who want a better life, and radicals. The radicals are overwhelmingly islamists, thats why they face execution back home. Now they've come to britain, and we can see exactly what has happened, they've attacked, murdered, killed.

If you believe there is no integration I really believe you are just stating someone else false uniformed, untrue view Fox? Washington Post?

You yourself have stated that muslims in the UK aren't made to culturally assimilate. We're in complete agreement on that. You see it as a very good thing, I see it as a good thing that does have some dangerous potentialities tho. Assimilation is important tho. Think about what Britian would be like if the Anglos, Saxons and Jutes never assimilated with the native romano-british peoples, and keep in seperated (ie culturally distinct, but not necessarily 'harshyl segreated and xenophobic) settlements? And that the Danes who came in later never learned to speak english and kept the Danelaw in effect in northern england? There'd be no britian. It wouldn't be able to operate. Assimiliation is a cohesive factor for a society. It doesn't mean that everyone has to be a wasp tho. Indeed, in the US, thats exactly how it works. The immigrants are expected to speak english and generally dress like other americans, but for the most part thats it. Thats assimilation, americanization, etc. There's still diversity, but 'multiculturalism' in a strict sense isn't seen as a 'value'. In britain, as you state, it is. And that analysis notes that, logically, this multiculturalism has a strong potential to clash with european liberalism. Becuase its resulted in this counter-culture of islamist radicalism, as we saw in the subways, and as we saw with the execution of Van Gogh.

MMM no integration their of beliefs and cultures?

And you beleive that this will happen in the vast majority of muslim households throughout Britain? Even in areas where groups like the BNP put out propaganda to isolate and alienate the muslims and there is antagonism between the muslims and non-muslims?

the issue is not integration because these guys never had or wanted a beard, or not to be part of our society.

And yet they entirely rejected that society. Also, don't just look at them solely, look at the entire network that existed to radicalise them and put them into action. They were obviously discontent with it in the first place, and then this islamist system probably came into play. Indeed, this whole situation will be a good test for this idea.

But, again, I don't mean to say that the British are pricks who hate 'ferners' and put them into slums. The entire idea in the article is that the british are very accomodating and don't require strong assimilation of their immigrant population, and that this has added to the problem. Notice that, in the end, the bombers aren't going to be Wasps. Isalmist terrorism is going to come out of islamic communities. That doesn't mean that as along as there are muslims that there will be terrorism, but think back to the situation with the Danes in britain. THey had settled into the middle of the island, didn't assimilate, retained their own language (tho I am sure that they could use english), keep to their traditional ways (this doesn't mean that they actively tried to make others act like them or didn't accomodate others) and in the end ended up making their own civil laws with their own rulers and magistrates, etc etc. Of course, that was a different time, but it shows a dangerous possibility. What if broad multiculturalism ends up giving way to a 'patchwork' society, where the people's in one region have nothign to do, culturally, with the people's in another?

So if integration is the reason as your trying to Posit that one bomber shouldnt have existed.

None of them would've existed if everyone was as integrated as that guy. And the son obviously rejected british culture and mores, he became a suicide bomber murdering innocent citizens, very unbritish. In immigrant populations, there is often, apparently, a rejection of the parental generation by the second generation. This can result in, say, the rejection of the old traditional ways of the parents, or a rejection of the assimiliation of the parents. And that, apparently, might be what happened in this case. We can't say that this kid as well assimiliated into British culture, because he, in the end, completely rejected it.

Its brainwashing and Ideology not integration.

And the ideology is comming from a poorly integrated unassimilated segement of the population. Permitting that brainwashing and ideology to survive is the 'mistake' of multiculturalism, in this idea. Permitting islamists, who've had to flee their home countries for being enemies of the state, to come to Britian, and letting them not assimilate and encouraging mutlicultural diversity, and even going so far as to allow some of them to openly preach for the destruction of the state, is the mistake, and its what's created a situation that allowed 4 young malcontents to bomb a bus and subways, rather than, say, listen to too much punk rock or get into fights at soccer games and go on drinking binges.

funny that 4 weeks ago on TV in Europe showed taht trial of the Klu Klux Clan member going to court for murder many many years ago

This obviously has nothing to do with the assimilation of middle eastern immigrants into modern american culture. In the US, being assimilated is seen as a value and being 'traditionalist' is seen as folly, whereas, in england, as you are stating, and as the author of the above paper posited, the reverse is true, or rather non-assimilation is seen as perfectly acceptable. It shouldn't be. Why? Because of what happened.

To be fair besides Israel (who do it just because they have to/rely on the USA) you have had no allies or friends.

Not for nothing, but so what? Where were the friends and allies of the americans five years ago? What great freindships does england enjoy? Obviously not any that prevented this attack. And for a country with 'no friends', the US sure does seem to get its way. With practically the entire world adamantly opposed to a war in Iraq, it still happened. Doesn't seem like having 'friends' is any help.

please keep showing us Uncivilised Undemocratic Unintegrated people

I really don't understand why you are getting so huffy about this. I noted that, and this was something recognized in that article, that the British view mutliculturalism as a virtue and doesn't enforce, cutlurally, assimilation of arabs and muslims, whereas the US does. I said that arab-americans are, in general, strongly assimilated and americanized, and that britain doesn't really concern itself with assimilation. You've agreed.