NEWS: Police Shoot a Baby Used as a Shield

Gaz,

If you truly believe there is such a thing as a 'waste of skin', would its definition be also applied to those that provide drugs to children, even addicting them in the womb, subject them to sexual abuse, and force them to deny our true God, the Creator Almighty?

I mean you no offense, just curious where you truly stand on this. Remember, "As ye judge, so ye yourself will be judged".

I agree with the Sniper team Idea.BUT the Cops had a Split second desision to make they MADE it plane and simple I am sure those Cops had THERE own kids at home they wanted to get back to.If you blame anyone blame the guy that use a BABY as a shield.

Damn cops killing baby while taking out a criminal while their lives were in danger protecting you and me. What were they thinking? What are they human beings? Humans can't make mistakes or wrong decisions!

These officers do their job as best they can and sometimes things like this happen. I'm glad we have them to protect our butts. Imagine what world we would live in without them. Imagine. As usual I support our officers and commend them on their duty.

I'm not being heartless about the child but it happened and acnnot be changed.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Gaz,

If you truly believe there is such a thing as a 'waste of skin', would its definition be also applied to those that provide drugs to children, even addicting them in the womb, subject them to sexual abuse, and force them to deny our true God, the Creator Almigty?

I can answer for myself, since I'm responsible for the topic hijack. At some point people have to answer TO SOCIETY for their actions. I'm not comdemning them to hell or judging their soul. I believe that everyone deserves some mercy, this guy probably had a messed up life. But I have a right to express disgust with words. Not everyone with a messed up life picks up a baby and a gun and endangers lives. I believe there are reasons for such an action, BUT not excuses.

I'd rather worry about the deady baby than how to refer to a murderer. This guy could have been the nicest guy in the world, abuse victim, etc. but the minute he put a baby in the line of fire in the most cowardly act I can conceive, he crossed the line of regular human disdain. I feel a bit sorry for him, but he crossed the line. His sweaty greasy hands tried to protect his crazed mind by stopping a cold hard bullet with a beautiful little innocent baby. At that point I believe he qualifies for a "waste" as far as society is concerned. It's a waste when such a guy demands so much of our attention and emotions when other babies die every day or are neglected.

I know where you are coming from, and I believe the world does need understanding people in the most extreme cases. I believe he'll get what he deserves in the afterlife, good or bad, by intellect greater than mine (understatment).

So most people believe that the cop was justified, and that we as citizens who have never been in the situation should stop second guessing the police' judgment, fine.Everyone wants to repeatedly claim that it was not the cops who used the baby as a shield, which is true...however conversely it was not the father who shot the baby....

I guess my point or question is....At what point do you people hold the police responsible for THEIR actions? No matter what the situation I notice that the general public supports the police no matter what they do (until they infringe their rights of course) Are the police just given, "carte blanche" in your eyes? Is there a moment when you will stand up and say "hey the police might be acting out of line" ? Ehough is enough? Or are the police just always right in all your eyes?

SHT,

Why did you change the spelling of 'Almighty', as in Creator Almighty? Was that a typo? I almost tried an edit for spelling until I saw that it was your mistake.

While you're at it, care to answer the question I posed for Gazrok as well? Or was that previous post your answer? If so, you neglected to say if 'waste of skin' encompassed those I asked about.

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Everyone wants to repeatedly claim that it was not the cops who used the baby as a shield, which is true...however conversely it was not the father who shot the baby....

If this guy picked up the baby and jumped into speeding traffic and both were killed by a car, would we second guess the driver who tried to avoid the collision?

If this guy was a matador and dressed the baby up in red and swung the baby around in a bullfight, who is responsible for the gored baby? The bull?

If someone is shooting a gun at PEOPLE and uses a baby for a SHIELD against BULLETS and he eventually succeeds in his INTENTIONS of using the baby for a shield, who's to blame really? INTENTION vs. ERROR.

Is there a moment when you will stand up and say "hey the police might be acting out of line" ? Ehough is enough? Or are the police just always right in all your eyes?

If you think I believe all the goodness spewed by teevee's "Cops", you misjudge me. I've had more unfavorable experiences than favorable. BUT here there would not have been a situation at all if not for the idiot. You can't expect perfection. Mathematicaly it's going to happen from time to time. Because something MAY be prevented that doesn't mean it always works that way in reality.

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
If this guy picked up the baby and jumped into speeding traffic and both were killed by a car, would we second guess the driver who tried to avoid the collision?

If this guy was a matador and dressed the baby up in red and swung the baby around in a bullfight, who is responsible for the gored baby? The bull?

You bring up VERY good points.....None of which I will try to dispute. But as I tried to say, we all expect the lunatic to act crazy, at what point do we as a society expect the police to act rational? That's all.

Sorry but despite what all the cowboys say, Crime will not be solved by some sort of wild west mentality. Crime will be solved only first when the underlying aspects are understood.

My ONLY issue is the fact that we should hold cops to some sort of standard of accountability. It just seems to me, that no matter what they do in the eyes of the public they are jsutified, and I do not agree with this. Just as we are blaimg the piece of sheitze vater who held his child hostage, I think we should equally be blaing the cop who shot said child in the head....Is that too much to ask? Accountability on BOTH sides.

What about police accountability to protect the public? This guy was walking onto the stree and shooting at anyone that he could see. And out windows. What about police accountability to THEIR lives? If it is shown that the police did something wrong, then yes we SHOULD hold them accountable, but if the choice was to go in and get this guy, or risk letting him walk out and shoot more people, then I think they were justified in making the choice they did. This wasn't a cowboy action, this was a trained breach under fire. If someone is shooting then you shoot back, plain and simple.

As I have quoted, time and time again - he moved outside. He was out in the open and shot at people.

The Police should have had the whole area surrounded and shot him from the side or behind as soon as the Public were in danger and not let him go back inside where there were people, which the Police knew about.

We don't know how far he moved out from the building. He could hvae walked right outside the door where they couldn't GET around behind him. Just because he's outside doesn't mean that all areas of access to him are open to take a shot. Maybe the police were still in the process of setting up a perimiter when he walked out and shot and hadn't been able to get organized yet. There are so many details we DON'T KNOW and unless we do, speculating or Monday morning quarterbacking is pointless.

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
I think we should equally be blaing the cop who shot said child in the head....Is that too much to ask? Accountability on BOTH sides.

Accountability: YES. Equally blame the cop: NO.

COP: Do you dispute that he was trying to serve and protect lives while risking his own simultaneously? WHat do you do for a living? If you aren't perfect does someone die, OR yourself? Do you have to live with such a mistake? Do you risk your life at the hands of inconceivable and insane cowardice? What if the cop was shot? Would that just be part of his job?

Cowboy or hippie, I'm going to lean toward giving "the good guy" in this situation the benefit of the doubt. I believe, whether a fault of being imperfect or not, that the bullet had the message of JUSTICE on it. Now, should the cop be evaluated and counseled and so sorth, yes. I believe so.

If the illustrious michael jackson had dropped his baby off a balcony would he be a murder in my opinion, yes. If a professional Baby Catcher tried but didn't make the catch, he would not be.

I suppose folks should just start strapping babies to themselves while starting gunfights, give the good guys less and less space to shoot at, and thus more and more responsibility onto someone else.

[edit on 16-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

[edit on 16-7-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

Anybody seen the pics from the shooting yet? There was NO WAY for the police to get behind the guy. He's standing in the doorway sticking the gun out and shooting. He's barely outside the door. He's got her in his arm, and shooting with the other hand. He's got her close to his chest in his right arm, so there's not really a clear shot.

Oh who cares at this point? Everyone knows that people aren't responsible for their actions anymore anyway. It wasn't this guy's fault he had a gun, it's the gun companies. It wasn't his fault the baby made the most sense to use as a shield, some woman shouldn't have given birth, but that wasn't her fault, it's some sort of gender-based procreation disadvantage. And the police, again with the gun companies.

None of us will sleep well until we have cameras watching the cameras that are watching the cameras that are watching us.

guns dont kill people,sorry gun ho cops kill people,nuff said.

Adult body size.
18month year old baby.

There is a lot of room around that. If he was holding her against his chest, his head or shoulders would have taken him down. They could have even shot the gun arm, since he would have had the child in the other. The problem was they didn't use their options and they didn't shoot him when he came outside.

They allowed him to go back in, with hostages.

There is a lot of room around that. If he was holding her against his chest, his head or shoulders would have taken him down. They could have even shot the gun arm, since he would have had the child in the other. The problem was they didn't use their options and they didn't shoot him when he came outside.

I'm sure he was standing still, so the cops could get a good shot off.
More than likely he was moving a little bit, the cops probably realized that in the fraction of a second between starting to pull the trigger and the bullet hitting that the suspects movement could have put the child in the path of the bullet.

You have voted mpeake for the Way Above Top Secret award.

For using the given knowledge of the situation at hand, without adding in any biase towards one side or another Mr. mpeake you get the way above award.


It's sad to see a few instances where cops ARE the bad guys. But I will trust my local cops with my life regardless and believe them when they say they are doing whats best for everyone.
As for determining police brutality and such, it's all about intent.
The few cops who assualted rodney king had a clear want to hurt him. I don't believe these cops had a clear case of "Hey that kid looked at me wrong, kill her!"
I do believe cops should be held accountable, and when accidents like this occur they are terrible. But these cops did their job, and I believe attempted to do so without killing the child.
I hope that the officer who shot the child is let off without much of a punishment, because the weight of that child's death will weigh him down for the rest of his life.