Stop being so self-important.

Hi all… I’ve only recently become a member of ATS (finding it interesting so far) and as yet have only posted a few comments. I have however read a lot of the threads. Two of the most active areas seem to be Creation versus Evolution and Aliens versus No-aliens.

Now this may cause a few people to get angry with me, but from what I’ve seen on these boards not many people are actually too interested in seeking the truth. Rather, they have a fixed and unchanging viewpoint and are only interested in convincing others that their view is wrong.

Both of these areas (Aliens and God) have no definitive answers as yet and are therefore open to being proven either way. This being the case, to blindly state that your case is correct and the other is not, is illogical. If you are searching for the correct answer then you must look not just at evidence that appears to prove your own belief, but at the opposing evidence as well. And you must view and evaluate that evidence OBJECTIVELY, not subjectively. By blindly sticking firmly to your belief (and it is after all, only a belief) in these matters you are precluding yourself from ever finding the answer.

The question is, therefore, why do so many people do this? Why do people spend all their time vehemently defending their viewpoint, without ever taking an open-minded view at the opposing evidence, let alone accepting the possibility that they may be wrong? The reason, I believe, is that most people who hold such strong and unchangeable views, are actually defending a HOPE that they are correct. And that this hope is born out of a desperate need to feel important, or valid.

Let me give a few examples, taking the two opposing views for both the GOD and the Alien debates. Please understand that I am generalizing to some extent and I don’t think that everyone falls into these compartments.

GOD EXISTS
God exists. I am created in his image. God loves me. I am important to God. I am important.

THERE IS NO GOD. THERE IS ONLY EVOLUTION.
All creatures are born out of the evolutionary process. This process has been going on for billions of years. Human beings are the pinnacle of evolution. I am a human being. I am important.

ALIENS EXIST AND ARE AMONGST US
We are not the only form of life in the universe. There are forms of life far more advanced than ours. Those life forms are already here. They would only be here if we are deemed to be important for some reason. We are important. I am important

THERE IS NO OTHER LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE
We are alone in the universe. There is no other life. We are unique. We are important. I am important.

All of these beliefs are born out of a sense of self importance or a need to feel important. They give the person a sense of validation. And by virtue of this, they will be defended blindly and vehemently. Who will admit that their belief is wrong, if, in giving up this belief they have to give up a feeling that they are important, or matter? I think that a lot of the time, with a belief structure of this nature it is difficult entering into discussion with the person. They are right, you are wrong. Period. They have to be.

The funny thing is, with both of these subjects, if ever there is definitive proof either way, either answer will change our collective consciousness and will have a major impact on our belief structures, philosophies and religions.

I for one am looking forward to the day when we know for sure either way.

My beliefs? I have no firm opinion, but I would prefer that there were other intelligent beings in the universe. And I would prefer that there is no God (for my own reasons).


[edit on 11-7-2005 by DonkeyPlopPlop]

Great little rite. Dunno, but is there a question in that outline you want input or what?

Dallas

Humans are, by their very nature, self-centered. It stems from our survival instincts, whether God-given or as a result of evolution. Changing one's way of belief or faith is not easy, as it is upon this moral standard we set for ourselves that we function in society. Without a moral compass, we would quickly descend into anarchy.

A small note: composing such a vehement post will not illicit many responses, and may endure the wrath of the mods even more. If you feel you support one side or another, present that side with facts that support your claims. However, if you truly believe you will change anyone's opinion of anything on this board, you are sadly, sadly mistaken, my friend.

We're all right, all the time, didn't anyone tell you?

Well I am interested in what others think, for sure. But also wanted to post my thoughts.

I think that if we argue for our views purely from the desire not to be wrong, then we are never going to know if we are on the right track. Open-mindedness is the only true way to find the truth. Closed mindedness on issues which have not been proven is arrogance.

No offense, but that's just common sense. First try stating your views, then allow people to respond.

RockerDom.

There is no vehemence in my post at all, honest. And I am not presenting my case for the existence or not of God or Aliens.

I am pointing out that a lot of people have certain beliefs which are born from the need to validate their existence. And they defend those beliefs blindly.

I have no animosity towards anyone. Merely posting my observations.

To assume that everyone who is defending their views is doing so blindly is incorrect and bordering on insulting. While it's often easy to assume that it's always the other guy who is not being open minded, in reality, often it is the other guy. Regardless of the actual material being presented, both sides of the origins debate have star players who do not lack empathy, curiosity, reason, and inquisitiveness.

Zip

I didn't say everybody. And i am not implying that I'm directing this point at people who don't agree with me. As a passive observer in many of these debates I see both parties acting in exactly this way.

If you think my intention is to insult then you have misinterpreted what I said.

My point is that if people develop an emotional attachment to a belief they have, then they will spend time defending that belief rather than being open to opposing views and perhaps discovering the truth.

If by 'zip' you are instructing me to be quiet, that is exactly the point I am making.

Zipdot... my apologies.... I just noticed your name. Scratch my last comment.

hehe.

[EDIT]

In any case, I have not missed your point... The thing is, overzealousness ALWAYS occurs in informal debates and discussions. It's not specific to this board or these members, but to humans. My point was that concentrating on these incidents is missing the point of the discussion - that is to say that in the thread, amidst the furiousness, there is usually a real, intelligent discussion going on.

Zip

[edit on 7/11/2005 by Zipdot]

I'd already noticed and apologized Zip... we must have been writing at the same time.

Do you not agree with my points? That many people develop emotional dependance to their views? I think that this detracts them from finding the truth. And was we know, addictions are hard to beat.

I agree to a major extent, but "pointing out the problem" is not going to solve it. We each try to "point out" the opposition's semantic weaknesses every day, but it doesn't actually change anything.

Zip

I agree, particularly when it's done in the context of a discussion... that's why I chose to make the observation in a separate thread. So that it wasn't directed at any specific person.

I think a lot of the time people don't realise that they have become attached to a belief. I am in no way suggesting that these people are lacking in intelligence. On the contrary, many of these people in the past have been of amazing intellect. Therein lies the problem though. If someone of superior intellect is on what turns out to be the incorrect side of a scientific argument (and this happens every time there is a new and unsolved question), and they defend their supposition out of emotion, rather than reasoning, then they are hindering the discovery of the truth.

This has happened again and again. I wonder how much more rapidly we would arrive at the answers if we could give up these attachments.

[edit on 11-7-2005 by DonkeyPlopPlop]

Originally posted by DonkeyPlopPlop
GOD EXISTS
God exists. I am created in his image. God loves me. I am important to God. I am important.

THERE IS NO GOD. THERE IS ONLY EVOLUTION.
All creatures are born out of the evolutionary process. This process has been going on for billions of years. Human beings are the pinnacle of evolution. I am a human being. I am important.

I think seperating the basic opinions on it into those two camps is inaccurate. Most people, including most scientists, don't fit into either one of those 'exlcusive' groups, but rather you can find lots of people who beleive in a god of some sorts and also recognize that evolution is simply a physical process that goes on in the world, and that asking if 'god' is directing it personally is as useless as asking if jesus is turning the piston's of one's car. Certainly, science itself doesn't state that there is no god.

that wasn't actually what I was trying to do....

Please understand that I am generalizing to some extent and I don’t think that everyone falls into these compartments.

The point I was attempting to make (perhaps somewhat clumsily) is that some people (by no means all) adopt these opinions as it gives them a sense of importance, and therefore are much less likely to view evidence to the contrary dispassionately. They have an emotional need for their belief to be correct, which precludes them from entering into the scientific process in an unbiased way and this is detrimental to actually finding the truth.

Its called human nature, by nature we are people with free will and free thinking.

As humans we all have a degree of education that actually starts at home, with set rules and believes embedded from childhood.

As you get older and more educated you get to learn to have your own point of view on how you understand your surroundings and they way you interpret information.

Sometimes our childhood believes stays stronger making us lean to one side more than the other.

Sometimes we are afraid to seek the truth or the other sides explanations.

Sometimes is just our faith in one believe that will not allowed to seek other sides.

It could be anything, but at the end it comes to the same fact we are humans and as humans we are not mean to have a collective thinking.

The best thing to do is to exposed your point and your findings on the subject and then allowed others to post their views.

That is all you can do, but never try to change somebody else point of view or faith or believe, just exposed them to what your point is all about and let them chose what they want, the more proven facts you used the better.

Staying away from subjects in which you can not bring anything but opinion is a good way to play safe, or they will become the ones that will be put to the test and be ready to take the hit.

Good luck

.
While its nice to think some great insight will be gained by the dialogue/debate/arguing I am dubious.

You have high expectations for dialogue.
Certainly not bad in itself,
But on a conspiracy web site where most moderators spurn conspiracies and expect a general rejecting consensus my expectations have been lowered.

If you are looking for strange, wierd and rarified mindspace where genuinely new [to humans] ideas are discussed/discovered you probably won't find it here. Maybe we are just the wrong species for that.

You live the reality that is or you park yourself waiting for the reality someone told you is supposed to be. You can try to change things, but building a bridge while standing in the middle of the river is tricky, but good luck if you try.

In the end, though, postings are just so much text that will someday be erased from some harddrive somewhere. So it is ok to be somewhat wild and even a little offensive, it allows you the free mind space to find the center of one's position.

Insignificance is sort of freeing. No crosses to bear. No burdensome Decorum to maintain. Life is short and only a fool wouldn't make sure to have at least some fun with it.

Self-importance is all we have. In reality each of us and the species is certainly insignificant and most likely of zero importance.

If we don't have self importance, we in fact have no importance.
Take it or leave it.

While im breathing im taking it.
.