Drugs?

I decided my post was too off-topic so I edited it.

[Edited on 5-9-2003 by Sian]

I'd have to say yay for pot, at the very least decriminalisation for those who don't yet have that.

I can't imagine the consequences of legalising the other classes though.

I was asked by venus via u2u to come here to continue debating. I think the exact u2u was "YOU GOING TO COME BACK TO THE THREAD OR DID I SCARE YOU OFF?" She then mentioned that she was tired of debating, as was demonstrated by her recent retirement from this thread. I would just like to take this time to answer her and talk a little about this thread.

Venus, I actually was not coming back to the thread. It had gotten too long, and I have fought for the side of legalization many times on ATS, I decided to let others take center stage for once. No, you did not scare me off, in fact, I wasn`t even aware that you were participating in this thread. Had I known you were, and had I seen the excellent debating that went on, I probably would have gotten involved sooner. I am not very easily frightened by Zealots who deny any truth but theirs. In fact, I enjoy debating them, useless though it may be.

And as for the thread. It has gone better than I could imagine, and as of this writing, it will have over 200 posts in it. I read through every one of those and I am very pleased by its popularity and the intelligence of its posts. This is the only place that I have seen that has Fry2, Prankmonkey, Skadi and Bout Time agreeing on the same thing. I think this is the most successful post on drugs in this incarnation of ATS, and my most successful thread, though I participated very little in it.

And now for my opinion. I believe that the legalization of Marijuana is without a doubt, completely necessary for this country. Perhaps after that you could begin a slow integration of hard drugs into the market, though with many restrictions and regulations. An age limit is mandatory for this, and through an age limit drugs would be much less available to kids than they are now. The massive amounts of affirmative posts on this topic show that a majority believes in removing weed legalization and that there are some very good arguments for the removal of all prohibitions. I think that this is all I have to say for now. Execept this:

XAOS

I'd say Nay on legalizing drugs, one reason, taxation. Just imagine how much the government would tax drugs. They would charge the public so much, that it would actually deter people from buying it. The war on drugs is to legalize drugs.

No, the war on drugs is to keep drugs out of this country. I wouldnt mind high taxation. It would keep most people from harming themselves with drugs, and stop most of the crime related to drugs. I admit, massively high taxation would be bad, but mild taxes are just what is required if weed was legal.

XAOS

Well if hard drugs are taxed, then drug related crime will go up. Addicts already do whatever they can to get drugs. If it costs too much to buy the legally, then they will still get them illegally on the streets. You need to rember that drug addicts have no money. Thats why they wait by their mailboxes every month to get their welfare checks. They can't hold down jobs,save money or be produtive in society.
I understand that people have the right to do what they want to their own bodies. But at some point most will become a problem to society.
Just take a look at the badside of whatever town you live in. You know...the area you never want to visit. High crime,homelessness, will just spread if hard drugs are allowed.

There's no way that taxes on drugs could increase the cost. Look at cigarettes and alcohol. Why would you assume that a pack of joints would be anymore expensive than a pack of cigs? The process to manufacture them would be the same, and everyone knows that, as expensive as cigs are, they're nowhere near the price of marijuana. I'd think that they could even sell a pack of joints for $10/pack, and people would still happily buy them. If half of that was tax, they'd stand to make a killing on the new revenue. Other drugs are even more expensive, not because they cost that much, but only because of the risk involved in importing and dealing illegal drugs. Cigs are still a HUGE revenue. If they were illegal, they'd no doubt be even more expensive than they are through legal means.
Furthermore, if the gov't decriminalized drugs, and decided to keep the cost the same and add taxes, you'd still have the same black market. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot. Done wisely, all drugs would be cheaper, and regulation would be easier.
Now, what I'd like to see happen is, allow people to grow their own for personal use. This alone would kill marijuana trafficking very quickly.

[Edited on 6-9-2003 by Satyr]

This is the only place that I have seen that has Fry2, Prankmonkey, Skadi and Bout Time agreeing on the same thing.

Aint that the truth!!!!
I do agree however. This has been a very good thread (besides a few misunderstandings). I think the original question was a bit too broad for the whole issue, as we have seen here, of "Drugs".
On that note, I'll be starting a narrower thread concerning Marijuana and hemp shortly .

The main reason marijuana isn't legal, is because huge pharmaceutical corporations pay large sums of money to keep it that way. If you watched the most recent Bill Mahar, Jesse Ventura was on the panel, and he had a very good point. Doctors can sell you prozac, and hundreds of other drugs to make you feel good, yet you can't smoke a god damn joint in your own home? The biggest threat to these companies is, you can grow pot right in your own home. If it was legal, many of these feel good drug companies would be out of business in no time.

I'm not here to argue family values (or the lack of) or the impact of hard drugs on society.

I read this in the San Jose Mercury News and wanted to see what everyone's opinion is on this:

Posted on Mon, Sep. 08, 2003

Drug firms block imports from Canadian sites
CONSUMERS SEEK CHEAPER PRESCRIPTION MEDICATIONS

TORONTO (AP) - Major drug companies have embarked on a campaign to strangle supplies to Canadian Internet pharmacies, driving up the prices of drugs and frustrating American consumers looking for cheaper medicine north of the border.



www.bayarea.com...

Do you think the same thing will happen with marijuana? I only see more government regulations

[Edited on 9/15/2003 by Venus]

Good find Venus!

I would say that initially you may see something along the same lines as this. You could compare it to the current tobacco taxation problems. Americans (smokers) are using the internet to order cigarrettes from all over the world rather than pay the insane taxes levied upon them by the Feds as well as the states. Now we have a situation where the states are "losing" money from the unseen tax revenue and are far from happy about it.
Will we see new laws restricting foreign tobacco imports?
Count on it.
If legalisation of Marijuana were to occur here you may find people trying to get around the taxes but I think more people would just grow their own rather than bother getting international shipments. But, of course, I have never even considered growing my own tobacco.

I guess it would all come down to pricing and the level of taxation. I think the Govt. could actually keep the "street prices" as they are and make a pretty hefty sum in the end. If the taxation got too out of hand (like Tabacco, Alcohol and Gasoline) then the thrifty minded will look for ways to avoid being overcharged.

Originally posted by Fry2
If legalisation of Marijuana were to occur here you may find people trying to get around the taxes but I think more people would just grow their own rather than bother getting international shipments. But, of course, I have never even considered growing my own tobacco.

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I also wonder if they were to legalize (decriminalize) pot, if the government will allow people to grow their own. I would have to think they won't! Only because they would once again, be losing money

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I guess it would all come down to pricing and the level of taxation. I think the Govt. could actually keep the "street prices" as they are and make a pretty hefty sum in the end. If the taxation got too out of hand (like Tabacco, Alcohol and Gasoline) then the thrifty minded will look for ways to avoid being overcharged.
*******************************

I did some hard thinking on this one

I have no idea how much tobacco is in a pack of smokes, but I am guessing about a 1/4 ounce if you compare it to weed measurements. (w/ seeds & stems, of course)

Now...depending on if it's brown or green the going price for that (in my neck of the woods) is $40 for brown and $100 for green. (Before anyone jumps on me....I am fully aware of the price breaks when you buy in quantity....I am commenting on the "street prices" issue FRY2 brought up.) Now...call me picky, but I would much rather buy green then brown. So...my pack of "joints" is going to cost $100.00 + tax?????...shyt....grab me a carton

[Edited on 9/15/2003 by Venus]

I don't think they would bother with people who grow for personal use. They do not regulate growing Tobacco for personal use but, who ever does that? Same thing with making wine and beer. People make small amounts in garages and basements but it's not a prolific activity that the Govt. concerns itself with. It would be a different story if you produced in large quantities and got into marketing.

As for the price comparison WOW!!!!! I didn't realize it had gotten so expensive out west! Last I heard around here it was about half of that . Really doesn't matter though. People are paying those prices now and I see no reason to make it dirt cheap (another deterrent to kids). Imagine that $100 pack of joints costing somewhere in the range of $1 to produce and $99 going to social programs that really need the money. Assuming that we can keep the DOD and the other corrupt hands out of the cookie jar.
Theoretically, it could be a huge revenue source with some great side effects. No more street dealers. Better drug education and rehab services. DRASTIC decrease of non-violent prison inmates (see Tommy Chong A.K.A. Scapegoat).

Originally posted by Fry2
I don't think they would bother with people who grow for personal use. They do not regulate growing Tobacco for personal use but, who ever does that?

It's all a matter of convenience I guess...

I know I couldn't sit around waiting for that tobacco plant to harvest so I could have a cigarette
I don't know which would be worse...waiting on tobacco or waiting on buds

Originally posted by Fry2
"It would be a different story if you produced in large quantities and got into marketing".

This is one of those things that make you go hhhmmm
Do you think the government would allow that?? Not a bad idea....lots of money to be made there for the grower!!

Originally posted by Fry2
Imagine that $100 pack of joints costing somewhere in the range of $1 to produce and $99 going to social programs that really need the money

Only in my wildest dreams

[Edited on 9/15/2003 by Venus]

quote:
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Originally posted by Fry2
"It would be a different story if you produced in large quantities and got into marketing".
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This is one of those things that make you go hhhmmm
Do you think the government would allow that?? Not a bad idea....lots of money to be made there for the grower!!

I think you would have to go through processes of licensing just like Tobacco and Alcohol producers do.
I'm not sure how much money would be in it for the growers. Look at tobacco farmers...enough said.
There are still the industrial uses for hemp though and that can make a huge difference not only for farmers but for the environment! A fast growing single season crop that has so many uses should not be ignored anymore, forget about the drug use end of it.
I promise, I'll get around to my Hemp/Marijuana thread as soon as time permits .

[Edited on 15-9-2003 by Fry2]

Originally posted by Fry2

There are still the industrial uses for hemp though and that can make a huge difference not only for farmers but for the environment! A fast growing single season crop that has so many uses should not be ignored anymore, forget about the drug use end of it.
I promise, I'll get around to my Hemp/Marijuana thread as soon as time permits

.

You'd better hurry...........You only have 2 weeks until harvest time

I'm looking forward to your thread. I can't believe how many people are really into legalizing/decriminalization of weed.
(FYI - I am still 100% opposed to legalizing the hard stuff)

(FYI - I am still 100% opposed to legalizing the hard stuff)

So am I, as I have been

I'll try to get my stuff together and put it up this week.
Been a long time since I was really active in the hemp scene.

I saw this today on Netscape.com (news)

Canadians Pan Government-Backed Marijuana
OTTAWA (AP) - Some of the first patients to smoke Canada's government-approved marijuana say it is ``disgusting'' and they want their money back.

To sum it all up: $195.00 for ONE OUNCE - NO REFUNDS
(this is by prescription only)
Just another problem that may arise in the US

The real question I would like to see adressed is why drug abuse is considered to be a criminal problem and not a health problem. Drug use in itself is not problematic, Extacy (Methlydioxy methamphetamine) was legally available as a slimming tablet in Europe for many, many years, Heroin was routinely prescribed by Doctors throughout the world as a postoperative pain killer in the 60's.

Drug abuse is the problem, and drug abuse is not limited to illicit drugs, tabacco and alcohol abuse kill millions each year, as do the the "silent" killers no one really wants to know about, like trans fatty acids and refined sugars that most mammals are genetically pogrammed to prefer over all other healthy foods.

Everything we eat/drink/inhale is a complex cocktail of chemicals, what we define as a drug or not a drug is arbitary and subjective. The term drug itself is a philosophical construct which has perverted the manner in which we consider matters pertaining to our health.

We are all happy to condemn the Heroin addict for his overdose but it has become politically incorrect to condemn the obese for their suicidal addiction to carbohydrates.

All the strongest, most potent drugs are already legal, they are sold by corporations, pharmiceutical companies ,prescribed by doctors, or freely purchased over the counter. It is only a tiny fraction of the total "drug" abuse problem which is run at huge profit by organised crime, with their filthy laboratories and dangerous production tecniques and violent criminal distributors.

All drug abuse is a serious problem that needs to be adressed by qualified health proffessionals, pharmiceuticals should be made available upon prescription by pharmicists, including those drugs now illegal in quantities suitable for the physical attributes of the individual being treated. Foods/drinks that are overtly addictive and just plain bad for us should be taxed to cover the treatment of those affected by their abuse.

It is time for governments to stop dicking about and get serious about health. Drug use doesn't hurt anyone, but drug abuse is enough to make you sick.

You make a couple of valid points but you are wrong in a few places as well.
There is NO WAY you can say "Drug use hurts no one".
That is a bunch of Bull. Some drugs just beg the "user" to abuse. The cost in human life as well as the sorrow felt by friends and family is truly immeasurable. Noy trying to "get on you" just a bit of what I know and have experienced.
I'm sure you will feel the wrath of Venus soon enough
(Be kind, Venus, he/she is new )