Submarines - do we need them ?

Well I won't say much, but as long as our planet is 70% water, we will need submarines. People still use ships for transport of people and resources which submarines can deny. U-boats nearly put Britain out of the war. And the Japanese could keep producing their weapons when raw materials cannot be imported from ships being sunk by American boats. Not to mention the ability to launch strikes and insert SOF on countries that are not landlocked while easily hidden.

reply to post by jojoKnowsBest


Operating near SSKs means the US Navy's Carrier Battle Group tactics will have to ensure the group doesn't get pushed into choke points where an SSK can lie in wait. AIP diesels can't keep up with an operating battle group in the blue water, so it has to sit back in strategic trap points like the straits of Hormuz or the Formosa Strait.

reply to post by deltaboy


Throw in the ability to stealthily remain on station just outside a nation's borders with cruise missiles ready to fire and you have a very attractive platform for strategic planners.

As a former crew member of one of the original "41 for Freedom" missile boats, I feel that the need is still there for an effective deterrence. I served from 1981-1984. I feel proud to have been part of "Strength through Brute Force".

USS Stonewall Jackson
SSBN634 (Blue)

I think deltaboy had the right idea.

If war broke out with say China, they would have to get soldiers onto the US mainland to invade, Submarines and various Naval weapons could completely neutralize an invasion with minimal loss of life (on our side) for far less than a ground war.



Of course I could be completely wrong.

the only bad thing about subs, in my opinion, is after a couple of weeks the berthing area starts to smell like manass soup and stink feet.

other than that, between carriers and subs, they are the cream of the fleet.

reply to post by Winchester Ranger T


Are you kidding us? Your assessment of the submarine service is entirely simplistic. With China's military (especially naval) buildup we need MORE subs not LESS.

Less new planes more new boats.

Originally posted by jackx6949
the only bad thing about subs, in my opinion, is after a couple of weeks the berthing area starts to smell like manass soup and stink feet.

other than that, between carriers and subs, they are the cream of the fleet.

After 90 days on the boat, there was NO smell of "stink feet"..... The air on the boat was recycled every 90 minutes.........

After 90 days on the boat, there was NO smell of "stink feet"..... The air on the boat was recycled every 90 minutes.........


really, when i was moved from torpedo bunks to crew berthing i asked to go back to sleeping in the torpedo racks because the berthing area stunk so bad. sure the air is recycled every 90 min, but when seaman beaumont's boots reeked there was nothing to do except bear it.

Originally posted by jackx6949

After 90 days on the boat, there was NO smell of "stink feet"..... The air on the boat was recycled every 90 minutes.........


really, when i was moved from torpedo bunks to crew berthing i asked to go back to sleeping in the torpedo racks because the berthing area stunk so bad. sure the air is recycled every 90 min, but when seaman beaumont's boots reeked there was nothing to do except bear it.

Maybe your COB didn't "ventilate" as often as we did! Seaman Beaumont should have had a supply of corn starch! I rarely wore boots, btw. Sneakers and "poopy suits" were the uniform of the day!

The boats do indeed smell. When one steps down the torpedo loading hatch of a 688 class boat which has been out to sea, one smells the odors of body musk mixed with the smell of stale food petroleum products and other chemicals. It cannot be helped. It has been pretty much the same with each boat. The only significant difference was when they stopped the guys from smoking on them in the yards. But not that much...it did nothing for the other odors. Recycling the air through charcoal filters can do only so much.

As to stinky feet...this could be a problem in berthing as some guys have extremely sweaty feet. These guys should know and have the ability to make preparations/accomodations for the benefit of others in such close confines. Basic Civility.

However....In contrast ..I was privileged to have a very interesting conversation with an Olde SOS Inspector who had served on the fleet diesel boats. Wow!!! Talk about odors...his very stories reeked of odor.
Facilities were quite sparse as compared to today's Nuclear type boats. Particularly in the water arena. He talked of going for days without bathing..mostly dry cleaning. The smell of diesel/petroleum everywhere. But what startled me the most and for which I was unprepared was the tale of them coming home and when they walked up the pier to meet their wives even the wives backed off from them. Now that is a real stinker!!

For years I've heard stories of sailors checking into motels for the simple luxury of standing in a shower and just letting the hot water flow...something they can seldom do out at sea, and a concept for which we landlubbers so take for granted. Most of us civilians never have any reason to think this far.
Even on ships as large as an aircraft carrier they have a little spring loaded sprayer gadget in the shower stalls. They wet down,,soap down and clean ..then rinse off. There is no luxuriating under running water as we landlubbers take for granted. No "hot tub" in which to just kick back with a nice drink and our favorite music.
At least on these surface ships they can usually ventilate to the outside air under most conditions. It is not so on a submarine.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 18-1-2009 by orangetom1999]

Honestly, and I am a pretty good judge of odors, on the 5 patrols that I was aboard, I never experienced any foul odors!!!!

Maybe on the older boats the scrubbers and filters REALLY did their job! Although we only ventilated once a week, as I remember, everything always that "oil and machinery" smell.

I'll agree with you on the shower arrangements. It was ALWAYS water down-turn off-soap up-rinse off.

I truly miss my time aboard. Once the maneuvering watch was set and we headed out until the time we returned to port, it was really a relaxing experience. No weather issues, no money issues, no personal issues from back home (they censored the "family grams" that were sent via wire)

What boat/boats were you on Stony J...or can you say.??

Curious about this.

Yes I know sailors who enjoyed thier time out at sea.

The boats on which I worked...when the sailors came aboard and the galleys began cooking...they ate well.

Navy Chow ..even ashore was better than our chow in the Air Force.

To me the Navy always had one up on the other branches of the military when it came to chow.

I remember one boat on which when they began to load stores...they loaded the freezer ..then the reefer..then canned goods. They loaded all the canned store rooms ..then a layer on the deck...a sheet of plywood on this...another layer of canned goods..and a final sheet of plywood. I was astonished. It was very difficult to get down the ladder ...then walk to where your job was with a heavy tool bag...all scrunched up on this stack of canned goods. They told me they would be eating thier way out of all these canned goods. Ive never seen anything quite like it since. It was alot of canned goods...I mean...alot!!

As to the odors...when I would go down into the boats...you notice it at the hatches....not so much once you get aboard and do your work. You get accustomed to the smells and odors and sort of filter them out unless it is a heavy petroleum smell..or like the smell of diesel fuel. Hard to mistake those smells.

I noticed the odors I described mostly if you get to go offship for a while. When you get back to the hatch to go down into the boat ..it is strongest there at the hatch..between the outside air and the boat.
Once you get down into the bowels of the boat and working ..you mostly dont notice it and tend to filter it out.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 19-1-2009 by orangetom1999]

As my screen name alludes to, I served aboard the USS Stonewall Jackson SSBN634 (Blue crew).

True, we did "eat down to the decks" with regard to the canned goods.

As far as the chow, it was GREAT for the first 30 days of a deterrent patrol. When the fresh milk, eggs and vegetables ran their course, it was time for the powdered replacements, canned goods and frozen foods to come out. The MS was the BEST at creating dishes from the 100's of pounds of chicken and ground beef that we provisioned!

Again, air quality, in my opinion, was always fantastic. Manufacturing our oxygen from the water was near perfection. I remember returning to port after a patrol and going topside and smelling the "real world" air. It was so much cleaner below decks!

reply to post by StonyJ


I'll never forget the smell of real air. Once the main access hatch was opened and the boat ventilation purged after a 14 week patrol it was a near sickening experience - putrid, rotten fish comes to mind. The civvies don't seem to mind it though

when i was in "galley duty" our chief ms wanted me and another guy to go find him some cherry pie filling, took us like 2 hrs of digging to find some. cans everywhere, all on top of each other. green beans and dehydrated mashed potatoes right next to each other, complete mayhem in there. it was like a canned good bomb went off. ha.

we also had a non smoking captain, he turned off the smoking lamp for like 8 days, and our mm nuke master chief about lost it. trying to get a signature on my quals was a scary ordeal during that time frame. he was a big guy, like 6-2 250#. mean somebitch.

LOL LOL..this is the part I love....a bunch of guys telling olde sea stories. I always enjoy hanging around listening.

I can see that about a non smoking captain. I dont recall when it began to change some years back..but I could see that it would be rough on some of the guys underway.

On these carriers we are building...they have a designated smoking area way aft stbd side...at least in the yards it is so. I dont know about out at sea.

We just sent the George Bush over to Norfolk. Still alot of work to do getting her ready for sea. The politics were to get it commissioned for the Olde Man before January 20...come hell or high water.

Lord I hate politics..but the Navy is awash in politics with a longer older pedigree than the other branches of the service.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by vonspurter
reply to post by StonyJ

 

I'll never forget the smell of real air. Once the main access hatch was opened and the boat ventilation purged after a 14 week patrol it was a near sickening experience - putrid, rotten fish comes to mind. The civvies don't seem to mind it though

Vonspurter,

I can understand this in some ports of call. The photos I have seen of Alexandria, Egypt come to mind as well as stories of Naples, Italy. I am sure lots of other seaports around the world are pretty foul.

What is the air and sea like out to sea...blue water, when riding on the surface.?? It has to be much better than most ports.

I dont think the average American has any idea how polluted some ports actually are...not in America per se..but in foreign ports.

After a long time of filtered processed air...real air in a port of call can be rough.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 19-1-2009 by orangetom1999]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Attack boats do a LOT more than just chase boomers around. They deliver SEAL teams to their targets, there's a wonderful psychological value to them because nobody knows exactly where they operate, so you never know if there's one near you. They have the VLS capability now, the Virginia is going to have a lot more advanced capability to them. If you ask me, we need MORE fast attack boats.

Hey zap! Havent seen you around in a while! How have you been buddy?

Anyhow, as usual you are right as rain.

I may not know all the technical terms and all that but you are absolutley right. Submarines do ALOT more than the OP gives them credit for.

The psychological side of it is something I never considered. The possibility of them looming off shore is bound to play a big role pyschologically.

For what its worth, when it comes to aircraft, water craft etc... I value you your opinion very highly.

reply to post by orangetom1999


Orangetom,

That was the smell when we surfaced about 20 miles before pulling into West Scotland, so pollution free. After breathing pure air for so long it seems 'real' air, especially out at sea is putrid. Maybe had something to do with the ventilation mast being underwater for so long and probably thick with algae but I know a lot of people threw up that day!

Worst port I went to (on a Frigate) was Izmir in Turkey. We had to anchor off as the port facilities were rubbish and had liberty boats transferring us ashore. We were told not to touch the water - you could see it was thick with human turds! Needless to say a few of our Royal Marines decided to have a dive off the boat on the way back from a night out.
They were airlifted by Hercules to a London hospital 4 hours later!

While on the subject of spinning yarns - one time whilst dived we had a fire exercise in the missile compartment and I ordered a part 3 (trainee submariner) to boundary cool the Captains cabin which had an adjacent bulkhead - he used countless buckets of real water - now that was funny!