EU about to punish Germany

Mr Eichel warned Germany's finances were looking gloomy
Germany looks set to face disciplinary proceedings after warning it is likely to break European Union (EU) budget deficit limits for another year.

Link to the article: news.bbc.co.uk...

So we Germans have financial problems, and the EU is going to punish us.

I think that we Germans should exit the EU.

The defict rules are acknowledged by many to be unnecessarily tight and have been under review for some time now.

My bet is this is nothing to be unduely concerned about.

The rules will either change and/or the 'penalty' will be minor (and probably fed straight back to Germany anyway).

Given the way certain other countries have decided to stop worrying about their deficits I don't think the comparatively small EU deficits are too much to worry about.

[edit on 3-7-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

What would it benefit Germany to pull out?

Germany would become a foot note in history if it chose not to continue its membership. The European Union will become, in time, a leading power (probably as the United States power recedes).

It would also be in the EU's best interest to continue to value Germany's membership. German membership only makes the EU stronger.

Germany cant pull out of the EU. Germany IS the EU. (Of course this is an intended exaggeration)

Biggest payer.
Most influential.
Strongest economy.
Most important transit country.
And not to forget: A founding member of the EU.

Well, thats a bed the Germans made themselves, as they once were supporters of the rigid deficit limits.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
Germany cant pull out of the EU. Germany IS the EU. (Of course this is an intended exaggeration)

Are you German, by chance?

The rules will either change

No, they won't.

and/or the 'penalty' will be minor

No, it won't. Apart from that, I don't care if it will be big or little.

(and probably fed straight back to Germany anyway).

No, it won't.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
What would it benefit Germany to pull out?

For example:
1) Being independent instead of being under Poland's rule - decisions about Germany's fate would be made ONLY by the German government.
2) Not having to pay anything to anyone.
3) No deficit rate punishments.
4) There would be no freedom of transition of people, which will make jobs in Germany be for Germans, not for Poles.
5) Exiting the EU will mean exiting the Schengen Treaty. This will mean that there will be control at the German borders, which will make our boundaries more secure.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
The European Union will become, in time, a leading power (probably as the United States power recedes).

No, it won't. And the USA will not lose its superpower position.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
It would also be in the EU's best interest to continue to value Germany's membership.

EU doesn't value our membership. On the contrary, it does everything that is possible to do bad to us.

Originally posted by EastCoastKidGerman membership only makes EU stronger.

It makes Germany weaker and other EU countries stronger.

Originally posted by AtheiX

The rules will either change

No, they won't.

and/or the 'penalty' will be minor

No, it won't. Apart from that, I don't care if it will be big or little.

The rules will change when the whole of EU will be tought about anew. This seems to be inevitable, given the current bad blood between UK and France. Germany wont miss her possibility to change rules in her favor. And lets not forget: the stability pact was very much influenced by Germany back then. It was an arrogant and critizised move back then, and it very well backfired on Germany for good.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
What would it benefit Germany to pull out?

For example:
1) Being independent instead of being under Poland's rule - decisions about Germany's fate would be made ONLY by the German government.
2) Not having to pay anything to anyone.
3) No deficit rate punishments.
4) There would be no freedom of transition of people, which will make jobs in Germany be for Germans, not for Poles.
5) Exiting the EU will mean exiting the Schengen Treaty. This will mean that there will be control at the German borders, which will make our boundaries more secure.

1. Germany is NOT under Polands rule. That the poles decided to rather go hug the USA is unfortunate, but I bet they soon will change their path. especially when they dont get the benefit of the Iraq engagement as they hoped. Spain "betrayed" (sorry to use this too strong word here) the EU in a similar fashion, and they also came back.
2. Much money comes back to Germany. Where do you think the huge export plus generates from? Germanies largest trade partner for example is France. Of course they get a lot of money for their overblown agricultural sector, but a lot if not more of this money COMES BACK. And this is only one example.
3. As I said, the deficit rate punishment is the German´s own fault.
4. The jobs lost in Germany are because of economic depression, cutting-edge taxation and outsourced production. If you compare the figures, the jobs lost to polish workers are less than siognificant.
5. The german borders are still controlled on a regular basis, especially the ones to the east. Exiting the Schengen Treaty (which is not necessarily connected to an EU membership, since Switzerland opened its borders for EU citizens according to the Schengen rules, too). The impacts from less export revenues and less transit income are far superior to those genearted by criminal border crossing. I dont know why you neglect this: Germanies economy rises and falls with the ease of access to other markets!

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
The European Union will become, in time, a leading power (probably as the United States power recedes).

No, it won't. And the USA will not lose its superpower position.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
It would also be in the EU's best interest to continue to value Germany's membership.

EU doesn't value our membership. On the contrary, it does everything that is possible to do bad to us.

Originally posted by EastCoastKidGerman membership only makes EU stronger.

It makes Germany weaker and other EU countries stronger.

I dont know where your attitude comes from. Nobody is talking about the USA receding to a banana republic. But still there are enough indicators that she has lost a good part of monopolies and will continue to do so. Lost to what?

Political influence lost to a more convicted joint position of EU regarding world matters - positions that Germany alone could not punch through in international relationships.
The Euro: definately on its way to becoming the world´s dominating currency (although this may take some decades, I´m not painting a blue sky)
The European dream: look at how many non-EU countries regard the EU not only as an economic alliance, but a desirable and separate entity, and how many projects have been started to create a similar connection (in South America, Africa, West and East Asia). Someone is bound to fulfill the power gap that the USA will leave when she further loses her influence. And the EU is the most promising candidate at the moment. Thats just the way it is.

Of course other countries grow stronger... thats whole point about the EU! But you are saying the EU has never benefitted Germany. What about EADS? what about ESA? what about Bologna? What about Eurocopter? what about Airbus? what about GSM standard? What about Galileo? Etc. etc. pp..... Do you really think this success would have been possible without the EU relation then I really doubt that you know which EU you are talking about.

Thanx for that elaboration, Lonestar.

Atheix, looks like you got rebuttin' to do.

Laughing my socks off at the plight of the Gerries and Frogs who wanting to make the EU a political entity instead of a trading one , have come a cropper with there introduction of the Euro . Anyone dealing in Euros i think your doomed as the mark and the franc will be back. Glad Britain kept the pound .

I know a guy who, like Saddam, started trading in Euros and strangely, his investment potential has climbed exponetially. The EU countries should hammer out their disagreements and forge on as a united entity. Its only in their best interest, intra-national-security-wise.

No way is Europe going to be one state, the Euro is a dead duck currency , if you want to trade in Euros then i think you will loose out , stick to the pound sterling thats guaranteed.

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
No way is Europe going to be one state, the Euro is a dead duck currency , if you want to trade in Euros then i think you will loose out , stick to the pound sterling thats guaranteed.

Are you a Christian, by chance?

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
Laughing my socks off at the plight of the Gerries and Frogs who wanting to make the EU a political entity instead of a trading one , have come a cropper with there introduction of the Euro . Anyone dealing in Euros i think your doomed as the mark and the franc will be back. Glad Britain kept the pound .

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
No way is Europe going to be one state, the Euro is a dead duck currency , if you want to trade in Euros then i think you will loose out , stick to the pound sterling thats guaranteed.

I think your view of Europe is a bit twisted between your romantic favour of the pound sterling and dreams of "Rule Britannia". Regarding the EU as a separate entity aside from mere treaties is nothing like creating a single european country. Nobody pushes into that direction. The EU is way above a simple trade treaty arrangement even now.

Your one-liner disregard of the Euro that you showed in other threads as well is somewhat contrary to reality. Just because the UK has a somewhat laid-back approach to EU responsibility that doesnt prove the whole organization useless.

[edit on 4/7/2005 by Lonestar24]

Oh you doubters..

Its called the Revived Roman Empire..

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
Laughing my socks off at the plight of the Gerries and Frogs who wanting to make the EU a political entity instead of a trading one , have come a cropper with there introduction of the Euro .

- Sorry but this is simply Bulldog's usual game-saying ill informed party political nonsense.

Actually there was a trade only collective in Europe before the EEC/EU - which the UK was a member of too.
It was called EFTA, the UK was a member of EFTA......
..... and it failed, leaving the UK to spend years begging to be let into the EEC/EU having missed the boat first time around.

The idea of an EU 'superstate' is a myth - amusingly - shared by right-wing and left.

The 'right-wing' wants top pretend the EU is all about imposing some sort of socialist dictatorship and the left that it is a dictatorship for corporate power.

The trouble is that the recent referenda in France and Holland prove that any notion of an almighty superstate is pure fantasy.

The result of the referendum in France had nothing to do with the Euro - and sadly little to do with the so-called 'constitution' itself either.
The referendum in Holland was more to do with the Euro but it was certainly wider than that.

Anyone dealing in Euros i think your doomed as the mark and the franc will be back.

- This is simply a couple of absurd and hysterical claims.

......your evidence that the Euro is "doomed" is?

......your evidence that "the Franc will be back" is?

Glad Britain kept the pound .

- .......and when it starts to hurt the British standard of living compared to our EU partners will you still be so pleased?

If British jobs start to be lost because large companies want to be within the Euro-zone, what then, hmmmmmm?

No way is Europe going to be one state

- It was never going to be "one state".

That is a baseless straw-man arguement, which ignores all the practical realities if ever there was - no matter who was quoted as speculating that it might happen in some dim and distant future.

the Euro is a dead duck currency

- You'll find currency traders and central banks the world over who disagree with this ridiculous idea.

......your evidence that the Euro is "dead" is?

if you want to trade in Euros then i think you will loose out

- Amusingly enough we (even here on ATS) have a regular poster who can refute this right here right now.
(did you see ECK's post?)

stick to the pound sterling thats guaranteed.

- Perhaps you'd like to tell us just how much value the £ has lost since WW2, hmmmm? .....or even since 1979? What was so "guaranteed" about it, hmmmmm?

The idea that any floating currency is "guaranteed" is as ridiculous as it is simply ignorant.

I agree with Ath, the EU is the post-WWII controll instance, it seems to be created to hold germany weak, to have a institute to share germanys money to the other EU nations, to make decisions over german interor politics from the outside, and all this while trying to dont let the germans know the exploiters arent the own politicans and companys, but the other european countries.


Germany needs liberty NOW



I HATE those EU politicans, but even more I HATE the german traitors which rule our nation now, and dont stop this EU #

[edit on 11-7-2005 by Wodan]

1. Germany is NOT under Polands rule. That the poles decided to rather go hug the USA is unfortunate, but I bet they soon will change their path. especially when they dont get the benefit of the Iraq engagement as they hoped. Spain "betrayed" (sorry to use this too strong word here) the EU in a similar fashion, and they also came back.

2. Much money comes back to Germany. Where do you think the huge export plus generates from? Germanies largest trade partner for example is France. Of course they get a lot of money for their overblown agricultural sector, but a lot if not more of this money COMES BACK. And this is only one example.

So you imply its normal, that to trade with another nation, one side has to send them billions of euros for their agricultural sector?

You think less french would buy german products without of the subsidys?
You think those french who get subsidys buy 100% german products?

3. As I said, the deficit rate punishment is the German´s own fault.

Why do you insult my nation?
The money that flows each year out of germany for subsidying the other european nations is higher than the deficit we have.

4. The jobs lost in Germany are because of economic depression, cutting-edge taxation and outsourced production. If you compare the figures, the jobs lost to polish workers are less than siognificant.

NOW I GET ANGRY, YOU KNOW # ABOUT WHATS GOING ON HERE, STOP THAT CRAP PLEASE!!!

Trough EU, germany has to subsidy companies that do outsourcing eastwards. And as these subsidys cost money, it also has to taxate companys for staying...

5. The german borders are still controlled on a regular basis, especially the ones to the east. Exiting the Schengen Treaty (which is not necessarily connected to an EU membership, since Switzerland opened its borders for EU citizens according to the Schengen rules, too). The impacts from less export revenues and less transit income are far superior to those genearted by criminal border crossing.

And again this proves you know #, why should export and import be related with that those people can come and go to our country how they want, its about free-trade, not free-to-immigrate-whereever-you-want, what matters for this topic

Originally posted by Wodan
So you imply its normal, that to trade with another nation, one side has to send them billions of euros for their agricultural sector?

You think less french would buy german products without of the subsidys?
You think those french who get subsidys buy 100% german products?

Although France´s agriculture gets more than 9 billion €, need I remind you that Germany gets 5 billion € agriculture subsidies as well? It doesnt matter whether 100% of them buy German, more important is the overall economic stability the money transfers from EU generate and thus improve export sales of german products.

Why do you insult my nation?
The money that flows each year out of germany for subsidying the other european nations is higher than the deficit we have.

I did not insult your nation. Was I wrong with saying that Germany approved the stability pact? Nope.

And lets have a little look at the numbers: The Eu costs each German 92€ per head p.a. So 92€x82 million Germans = 7.544 billion € Germany looses to the EU. This figure of 92 € per head is the net amount of money Germany pays, the sum of German input into EU minus the sum that Germany GETS BACK directly from the EU.

Now the stability pact calls for a new debt of less than 3% of the annual GDP. Germanies GDP is 2.177 billion € for 2004. 3,1% of that are 67.49 billion €. So what the EU membership costs the Germans per year is only 8.5% of the total minimum new debt Germany WILL have this year. So you are wrong.

NOW I GET ANGRY, YOU KNOW # ABOUT WHATS GOING ON HERE, STOP THAT CRAP PLEASE!!!

Who are you to decide what I know whats going on "there"? You dont know who or where from I am, and you cant judge my knowledge. Has noone ever told you not to be aggressive when others arent aggressive to you?

And again this proves you know #, why should export and import be related with that those people can come and go to our country how they want, its about free-trade, not free-to-immigrate-whereever-you-want, what matters for this topic

Every basic economy handbook can tell you that access to markets is one of the decisive factors of economic success. Closing down the borders will not stop this access, but it will obstruct it. And it only enables people to travel freely without the need of a passport; there still are border patrols in every country that are meant to control illegal and/or criminal immigration. And since this thread is about German economic deficits, the issue of free trade is very well more important to this topic than any fears of the bad bad foreigner.

Germany pays more money to the EU budget than it gets from it. Also, we have sold Poland 128 Leopard 2 tanks at a bargain price. Remember that Leopard 2 is the best tank in the world.

Now to all non-German Europeans:
You better respect us Germans. By expelling us out of the EU or causing us to leave the EU you will only make us stronger.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by AtheiX]

Originally posted by AtheiX
Germany pays more money to the EU budget than it gets from it.

But as I showed the margin is very narrow. If you have other numbers, post them. And the rest is multiply repayed by the exports to these countries.

Also, we have sold Poland 128 Leopard 2 tanks at a bargain price. Remember that Leopard 2 is the best tank in the world.

And what exactly has this to do with the thread? This deal was signed in April 2002, so it was before Poland became part of the EU. Apart from that these were decades-old Leopard 2A4 tanks that were planned to be sold at a cheap price.

Now to all non-German Europeans:
You better respect us Germans. By expelling us out of the EU or causing us to leave the EU you will only make us stronger.

Noone wants to throw Germany from the EU. The thing is that Germany has broken a rule, in particular a rule it wrote itself back then. If you foul a player badly at football, you might face a red card. If your new debt goes above the 3% rule, you might face punishment according to a treaty signed by Germany. Where is the point? Where is the misbehaviour?

Apart from that, Barroso already said that he will suspend the punishment until at least next year, if not until 2007. The same he said about Portugal (6.7% new debt) and Greece (5.5% new debt). So Germany might have 2 years to get back in line.

[edit on 14/7/2005 by Lonestar24]