Terrorist : The Next Generation

I'm sure a return to Isreals legitimate 1948 borders might have been exceptable to Mr Arafat.Instead the west is pressuring Palestinians to except Isreals 1967 borders.The Isreali's are as we speak building a wall encompassing further Illegal settlements.In 2010 will we be asking Isreal to return to it's 1999 borders will that in effect be the only game in town in the future.
Why should the Palestinians except only East Jerusalem when all of it is rightfully theirs.
Duing the Second World War France was occupied by the Nazi's The French resistance killed the occupyers where ever they could they were not terrorists.
Of all nations in the world Isreal should be the first to understand that persecution and humiliation of race IS WRONG!!!

Originally posted by John bull
Duing the Second World War France was occupied by the Nazi's The French resistance killed the occupyers where ever they could they were not terrorists.
Of all nations in the world Isreal should be the first to understand that persecution and humiliation of race IS WRONG!!!

Hey man, becarefull.....

The difference between Europe Resitance against the nazi and the Palestinians is really clear. Resistance was killing ONLY German soldiers, not German civilians.

Resistance NEVER targeted a german civil target.NEVER !!! They were soldiers, not terrorists !!!

They didn't put bombs in any german school bus, any german hospitals, any german train-stations, any german aircrafts...When they had to destroy a building or something else, they were destroying their ONW buildings, their OWN bridges.

Also, they didn't want to kill ALL the Germans. The palestinians want to kill ALL the Israelians.

Do not compare a resistant with these bastards ! Never !!! It's outreagous for the resistant memory !!!

If you think that a french resistant is like a Palestinian, it mean 2 things :

1) You don't know what you're speaking about ( the resistance ), and the media brainwash is working well with you.

2) You know what you're speaking about, and then, you're probably a nazi.

My grand-fathers were resistants, and one of them is dead in a german concentration camp in 1944. Then, don't tell me again he was like these bastards terrorists!

Did I miss a part of history? The Germans occupying France brought along their own school houses, buses, civilian hospitals, and well, civilians?
Funny, I always thought it was a military occupation.
But, Phoenix, you think for one moment that if the French resistance had the opportunity for ANY target in the Fatherland, they WOULDN'T take it out?
I don't know Phoenix, radical right wing propaganda in one post, sappy claptrap chain mail about 9/11 in another, and now conveniently forgetting geography to suit your 'moral outrage'.......

..... C'est Dommage.

I was not clear enough, or it's coming from my english. Sorry.

Yes, it was a military occupation. I've never sayed it wasn't.

But for your statement :

" But, Phoenix, you think for one moment that if the French resistance had the opportunity for ANY target in the Fatherland, they WOULDN'T take it out? "

It's right, they wouldn't. Resistance didn't attack any german civilians targets. Not because they were not able to do it. No, because they didn't WANT to do it.

I know that some of them did it, at the end of the war. But, :

1) These resistant were communists, and were not comming from the "De Gaulle " network resistance, and

2) They had to suffer so much from the Nazi occupation, that some of them were driving crazy.I don't excuse them, but I can understand them.

3) These revenges were really limited to some areas and to some peoples. May be just 1/1000 of these resistants took a revenge against germans civilians.

4) The Palestinians, it's not the case. Their "modus operandi " is killing a maximum of Israelians civils, not Israelians soldiers. Do you see the difference this time ?

Resistance is 1 thing, terrorism is another 1, really different from the first 1.

Then, " ce n'est pas dommage, c'est juste. "

[Edited on 13-9-2002 by ultra_phoenix]

The Geography: from France to Germany versus Palestinian ghettos to Israel. Clearly you can see THAT difference, no?
And the occupying 'Hun' surely did not commit infanticide on a regular basis as retribution & crowd control like the IDF?

" 2) They had to suffer so much from the Nazi occupation, that some of them were driving crazy.I don't excuse them, but I can understand them. "

Double standard? Surely you can excuse the Palestinians for enduring a violent 30+ year occupation?
Going back to the geography (small), they are not able to use heavy artillery against the IDF because they can't get any; would not the French have fought with WHATEVER they could?
Again, compare the death toll, compare the armament and compare the duration.....C'est la guerre, rien plus de!

I don't excuse either side, but I won't tolerate an artificial moral ground for Israel when:
a) Both sides commit atrocities
b) It Is War - not terrorism cause & effect. Know something about military strategy - Guerilla warfare is NASTY but the only alternative to an outgunned & out manned combatant.

[Edited on 13-9-2002 by Bout Time]

Originally posted by Bout Time
The Geography: from France to Germany versus Palestinian ghettos to Israel. Clearly you can see THAT difference, no?
And the occupying 'Hun' surely did not commit infanticide on a regular basis as retribution & crowd control like the IDF?

Ok, I was waiting for something like that.

Of course, they did all these atrocities.Sure. But NOT on a regular basis, like the Palestinians are doing now.

And if Israel was under Palestinians occupation, all Israelians would be killed by them. The germans didn't kill everybody, not like the IDF want to do it.

Originally posted by Bout Time

Double standard? Surely you can excuse the Palestinians for enduring a violent 30+ year occupation?

No double standard. I just know the difference between a resistant and a terrorist. Apparently, we do not have the same point of view on this subject ( who's a resistant, and who's a terrorist )

Originally posted by bout Time

Going back to the geography (small), they are not able to use heavy artillery against the IDF because they can't get any

It's wrong. They don't have artillery ANYMORE. Before, they had Soviets artillery ( 122mm & 152 mm ). And they were using them.

Originally posted by Bout Time

would not the French have fought with WHATEVER they could?
Again, compare the death toll, compare the armament and compare the duration.....C'est la guerre, rien plus de!

If the Palestinians have to suffer this occupation, it's only because they don't want to stop their terrorists attacks. Look the medias, when they don't do that, the Israelian Defense Force stay on their side, they are doing retaliations operations ALLWAYS after a terrorist attack.

Originally posted by Bout Time

I don't excuse either side, but I won't tolerate an artificial moral ground for Israel when:
a) Both sides commit atrocities
b) It Is War - not terrorism cause & effect. Know something about military strategy - Guerilla warfare is NASTY but the only alternative to an outgunned & out manned combatant.

Hey, it's you who want to excuse these barbarics acts, not me.
You're lucky, if I was acting like a
"Democrat", I'll call you an anti-semite.

Tell me, are you ?

I know 1 thing. The Palestinians had a gret opportunity in Oslo. Unfortunately for them,Arafat refused the agreement. This agreement was really fair for the both parts, but he sayed " NO ".

He's not a democratic leader. He's just another little warlord who don't want to see his power flying away. The Palestinians and the Israelians will have peace when Arafat will be fired or resigned or dead. Don't think that I don't like the Palestinians.Not at all. It's Arafat that I don't like, coz he's a tyran who don't cares for his own peoples.

Did you know that Arafat wife is living in Paris ( France ), like a Queen ? Limo, sport cars, great jewellers, nice restaurants, fine party, " rendez-vous mondain "....and so on... And her peoples are dying, are starving....He and she, they just want to keep the power, nothing more. They are the Ceausescu familly from the Middle-East. Their leitmotiv ? Do what I say, don't do what I do.

Don't tell me he's a resistant. This guy is a fake and a treator against his own peopels.He's a " good " nazi/communist.


Question out of subject : Do you have some base in french ?

[Edited on 13-9-2002 by ultra_phoenix]

Ultra-Pheonix
Officials of Vichy France were also targeted these were civilians,collaboraters were targeted these were civilians.
I'm not trying to justify the targeting of civilians.I believe it's wrong.What I am trying to do is draw a parallel in history.You seem to have a conveniently airbrushed recollection of France's domestic war time history.I would not criticise The French Resistance they were only defending their homeland against an oppressive occupation.
You also called me a Nazi.This is an insult that is so lightly thrown these days that I often wonder if we have forgotten the true horror of it's connotation.

Originally posted by John bull
You also called me a Nazi.This is an insult that is so lightly thrown these days that I often wonder if we have forgotten the true horror of it's connotation.

I didn't call you a nazi. I gave you to choice. If you want to take the second 1, don't blame me.

These choices were :

1) You don't know what you're speaking about ( the resistance ), and the media brainwash is working well with you.

2) You know what you're speaking about, and then, you're probably a nazi.

But I didn't call you a nazi !

[Edited on 13-9-2002 by ultra_phoenix]

Guerrilla warfare, for those who are ignorant of war, is against the uniformed enemy, not women and children in pizzarias. Figured that ought to be clarified, in case anyone be confused with the rationalizing of deliberately targeting kids and women.

Lets review the "Palestinian" situation, shall we? In light of actual facts, and not the twisting of history. At least a few high points, as my time is limited on the net due to bands of thunderstorms spinning off a tropical storm approaching. I can't afford to buy a new computer after this one gets fried from lightning.

Although there has always been Jewish people in the Jewish homeland throughout the centuries, most of the time living under oppresive conditions, the Jewish population began to grow in what was then known as Palestine, around 1897, due to the persecution of the European Jews. Friction began to increase with the growing sentiment of Arab nationalism (from Turkish rule), and the tension grew in the next few deades, resulting in frequent riots, primarily over access to holy places. In 1929, a riot began at the Western Wall,; it spread to Hebron's Arabs, who murdered 67 Jewish men women and children, and then burned their synagogues. This prompted Britain, who had been granted mandatory jurisdiction over the area by the League of Nations in 1922 after their victory over the Turks, to create a solution. This solution, which violated the Balflour Declaration (called for the establishment of a Jewish homeland in all or any part of Palestine), was to divide he country between the Arabs and the Jews. On 14 May, 1946, the Arabs were given the eastern 4/5's of the Land (then known as Transjordan) to the Arabs and the rule of the Hashemite Bedouin tribe. This created the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. This left the new state of Israel only 23% of Palestine to "occupy, while the Arabs were given the greatest portion of the land.

It was the League of Nations' intention that the territory was for the resettlement of Arab Palestinians, not the developement of another independent Arab state, yet it was reidentified by its Arab occupiers as the nation of Palestine, right afterward. Even as late as 1968, King Hussein of Jordan was still saying "Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan." Interestingly enough, in 1974 even Arafat said "What you call Jordan is actually Palestine." Interesting difference from today, where Jordan is viewed as a distinct state just like Saudi Arabia, and Israel is seen as Palestine.

After Israel was declared a legal nation in 1948, the arab world immediately went to war against the Palestinian Jews (now the Israelis). Although unable to overrun the new nation, the Arabs grabbed as much land as they could. Jordan took the biblical territories of Judea and Sumaria, and created the modern term for that area, the "West Bank". Egypt grabbed the Gaza Strip. The Israelis later recovered the land that was theirs to begin with, but still today, the Arabs along with the mainstream media refer to it as "occupied territory".

This is as far as I'm going tonight before I unplug the computer. Let me finish with a quote from Anwar Sadat, who is seen today as a progressive peacemaker:

"The most spendid thing the prophet Mohammad did was to evict the Jews from the entire Arabian penninsula (PM Began gave Sadat the Sanai back, which was taken after Egypt attacked Israel), I pledge to you that we will celebrate on the next anniversary, God willing, and in this place, with God's help, not only the liberation of our land but also the defeat of the Israeli arroganceso that they may once again return to the condition decreed in our holy book: "Humiliation and abasement has been stamped on them", we will not renounce this."

[Edited on 14-9-2002 by Thomas Crowne]

now THAT is what i call patriotism...
but serioulsy, its the cycle of hatred,

its like...

The statement Below is evil.
The statement Above is evil.

both side thinks they are the "good guys",
and ignorance only re-inforce the cycle.

go to any american school and ask the 10 year olds whether there should be a war in iraq. here the resounding cry of 'hell yes!' despite the fact that they have no idea of the consequences

they have NO idea...

and the thing that bothers me is that when someone hates jews, he is called a nazi...
that fact is what makes me dislike jews.

They manipulate the information that so it seems "horribly more important" than anything else. The jewish holocaust, everybody heard of this, the Khmer-red massacre, not alot know, the armenian genocide, a small majority knows about it (go S.O.A.D!).

the jews lost 6 million, indeed horrible.
The russians lost [B]20[/B] Millions, worst.
in the newspaper i was reading and i found a page that telled "Where you a victim of the Third reich and the holocaust?" and crap...
i mean... WTF????? ITS BEEN OVER 60 YEARS MAN!!!![/rant]

but whatever, flame me if you want...
but if you still think that everything i said is Nazi BS, well...

Thank you for your post TC. The things are a little bit more clear now.

And you Necro99, it seems that only your body is " flexible ", not your mind.

Who tooks the pic ? Fantastic_Damage ?

I have to agree with Ultra on that one.Ecellent summary TC.
Yet no mention of the pre-1948 zionist terrorists.The bombing of The King David Hotel that killed 91 people,British soldiers but including also 13 jews.
As for necro the thought that you might take some of my arguments and twist them to your anti-semetic veiws worries me.I do not hate jews,I do not even question the right of Isreal to exist especially after all this time.However,though no single act of Isreal can be described as expansionist the last 50 years shows that expansion has taken place.I question Sharon's motives at present and am troubled by his ambitions.

Thank you John Bull. That is what it is; a summary. Long posts put me to sleep, so I try to hold it down. Also, feel free to add anything that you feel was important that I skip.

I don't see any problem with Sharon's actions or motives, and I don't see any ideas for expansion. Where would they go, Egypt, Syria, Jordan? They can't even totally utilize their 23% of Palestine as the Arabs stole part of it and Israel had to retake it. Once the Arabs took control of it, though, they never release claim to it, even after it is taken back.

Speaking of individuals of the scene, Let's look at Arafat.
Yasser Arafat, an Egypt born fellow whose real name is Abdul Rauf el-Chodbi el-Husseini, is no stranger to anti-Jewish ideologies. He is a member of the Husseini family, who produced the Grand Mufti of Palestine, Hag Amin el-Husseini, who organized the anti Jewish riots of 1921-22, 1929, 1936 and 1938, befriended Adolf Hitler and worked withthe Nazis to plan a "final solution" for the jewish problem in Palestine (1943-1945) Arafat was not only related, but one of the mufti's students.

More later.

TC,Theres no real need to visit the sins of the father onto the son,the son has committed enough of his own,I am no supporter of Arafat but neither am I a supporter of Sharon.
The lebanon,and Syria could be targets for expansion not in any overt way but along the same lines as Suez (1956?)If you scrub Britain/France taking conrol of the canal and replace them with the US tackling a potential terrorist threat an oppotunatey for expansion arises.I'm not saying that this will happen I only point it out as an example of how an oppotunist leader like Sharon could expand.I believe that many right-wing Isreali's(Hardly a tiny minority unrepresented in goverment)Hold that the borders of Isreal are laid out in the bible and that means expansion.To many the Isreali constitution is The Torah.

Originally posted by John bull

To many the Isreali constitution is The Torah.

You right. The same with the Muslims, they 're agree only with the Kuran. The problem is not just politic, it's also a religion problem.

I'm deeply convinced that we have to chose a side. The Palestinians or the Israelians.

Like I never saw a jewish terrorist attack against western nations, or in antoher part from the world, and I saw too many muslims terrorists everywhere in the world, I did my choice. I stand up for those who are fighting against the terrorists.

I didn't wait for the TC post, about Arafat past, his friendship with the nazi and so on. I knew it yet. Unfortunately, we're not so much who knows it. In Belgium, there is may be 1000 peoples who are awares. I'm one of these 1000. I see them like they are. A nazis bunch who want to kill all the Jews & the Christians.

During WW2, nazis kill many jews, but many christians too. Heinrich Himmler was a great fan of the Muslim Faith.This monster ( Himmler ) told one day : " The only faith who deserve our respect, it's the Muslim Faith "

After the WW2, where do you think some nazis went ? South-America and the USA ( paper clip project ), of course. But also : Syria, Egypt, Iraq,Jordania and many more. That's why I'm so skeptic about the Muslim Faith and his real meanings.


I think you don't know it, but the Waffen SS had more than 2 completes SS Panzer Divisions on the East Front. Some of them were " working " on the West Front too.

Have I to tell you all the atrocities they commited against the Jews & the Christians in the name of their Muslim Faith and nazis faith ?

In my mind , they are nazis.All of them. And I don't like nazis ( or communists ). I hate dictartorships and tyrans.

Look the Middle-East. Except with Israel, you'll not find any democratia.Any. Only dictatorships. We have to be ready to give our life if we want to keep our freedom. I don't want to see my daughter with a tchador. I don't want to wear myself a black SS uniform.

I'm not a fanatic. I'm like the USA, in WW2, when to stop the war with the Japan Empire, they had to drop 2 A bombs. Disgusting, horrible, I know. But when you have no choices, if you don't act immediately, you're a coward, and it'll cost you more. Never forget Winston Churchill. He told to Dalladier & Chamberlain : " You refused the war to have a so-called peace.So, you have the peace.But don't worry, anyway, you'll have the war and the shame, and you'll regret the day where you sayed " yes " to your "Mr Hitler " ".

I don't want to have a so-called peace. I don't want to say " yes " to these news "Mr Hitler " . I don't want to be shamefull. I want to leave in peace, but I'll not sell my freedom for a so-called peace. Unfortunately, UE Socialist leaders ( and their US democrats friends ) don't understand it ( or they don't want to understand it ). One more time, history is repeating themself. And each times, we have a war, because these Socialists/Democrats cowards are not able to see and understand what they have in front of them.

Sharon know exactely who he have in front of him. He know them. He know what TC and myself have wrote here. He know the past, and he don't want to see another shoa. Then, he has my voice. He has my support. He has my friendship.

[Edited on 14-9-2002 by ultra_phoenix]

Hi,Ultra.
I have to be honest I write from memory but am I wrong.I thought Egypt was a democacy.Saudi,and Jorden have monarchies. Britain,Norway,Sweden,Holland,Spain,Belgium,Denmark, to name but a few, all have monarchs as there head of state.
I don't ever remember seeing an equation which read;
Democracy=Good Govenment.
Democracy isn't even the same thing in different "democratic"countries.One form of democracy will favour a different group within society.The 2000(was it really so long ago)elections in the US were hardly a good example of democracy at work(from hanging chads to hanging Saddam in less than 2 years).Then we have the French elections.Your only choice an unelectable fascist or a corrupt electable right-winger,not a fair choice for a country that really gave us modern republicanism.I'm sure that if I spent just a little time researching the Isreali system of democracy I would find inequality.
You say that everyone should take a side.Why?There are many moderate Isreali's and Palestinians who know that the only settlement is through negotiation.
Palestinian democracy may be hard to see, yet only recently Arafats entire cabinet had to resign so as not to incur a vote of no confidence.New elections are scheduled and other names other than Arafats will be on the ballot.

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
Thank you for your post TC. The things are a little bit more clear now.

And you Necro99, it seems that only your body is " flexible ", not your mind.

Who tooks the pic ? Fantastic_Damage ?

actually i stole the pic from your personal album

Hello John Bull.

Originally posted by John bull
Hi,Ultra.
I have to be honest I write from memory but am I wrong.I thought Egypt was a democacy.Saudi,and Jorden have monarchies. Britain,Norway,Sweden,Holland,Spain,Belgium,Denmark, to name but a few, all have monarchs as there head of state.

Answer :

For Europe, yes, they have monarchy. But their Kings & Queens do not have any power anymore. It's an elected government who takes the decisions.The EU kings & Queens can just ratified some gov'decisions,that's all.

In Arabia & Jordania,it's different. The gov' HAS to obey to the King. In EU monarchy, it's the opposite.

You can't compare EU monarchy with Middle-East monarchy, it's unfair and unhonnest.

Originally posted by John bull

Then we have the French elections.Your only choice an unelectable fascist or a corrupt electable right-winger,not a fair choice for a country that really gave us modern republicanism.I'm sure that if I spent just a little time researching the Isreali system of democracy I would find inequality.

Answer :

Hey wait a moment, first of all, I'm not French.
And for the french election, you right. What a choice...A #ing fascist or a twister who's looking from the right-wing, but in facts, don't care about the right. He cares only to his little ass and his best friend, former prime minister Lionel Jospin ( a Leninist/Marxist/Socialist ) who was thinking that Pol Pot was a great man.

Never go in France, never !!! This country is the worst western nation. Corruption, murders, rapings, stealings....This country have them all.It's Soddome & Gomorhe united under 1 flag. I'll never go back in France. Except with a .50 machine-gun.

And yes, you'll find some inequality in the Israelian system. But in their system, you have some Israelian-Arabs who are elected to the Israelian Parlement. Show me an Israelian or a Jew who is elected in the Palestinian side....You can search, you'll not find.

A Palestinian can go in Israel, it should be ok. Thousands and thousands are do it each day. When you're Jew,if you have to go in Palestine, you must have to be armed like the Terminator himself if you want to stay alive.

Originally posted by John bull

You say that everyone should take a side.Why?There are many moderate Isreali's and Palestinians who know that the only settlement is through negotiation.

Answer :

Much more on the Israelian side, unfortunately.And when you are a Palestinian, and you want to do peace ( I mean really peace, not just like Arafat who say peace and think war ),you have to be very carefully for your life and for your familly live also.

Originally posted by John bull

Palestinian democracy may be hard to see, yet only recently Arafats entire cabinet had to resign so as not to incur a vote of no confidence.New elections are scheduled and other names other than Arafats will be on the ballot.

Answer :

Ok, then, let's wait & see for the polls results.We'll see. I hope the news will not be like the ancients.Otherwise....

Anyway, you didn't answer to my precedent post. You just argued one more time. I gave you so many possibility to try to show me that I was ( may be ) wrong.

May be you don't know t, but on earth, there is somepeoples who don't want peace. You can sign all the peace treaty that you want, go to a maximum peace conferences, it change nothing. They will have ALLWAYS something new to ask.

Hitler, Dalladier and Chamberlain...Never forget. Never ! Too many innocents peoples had to pay the maximum price. And they payed it with their bloods, coz some stupids " pacifists " were too much blind and cowards.

Regards.

Originally posted by necro99

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
Thank you for your post TC. The things are a little bit more clear now.

And you Necro99, it seems that only your body is " flexible ", not your mind.

Who tooks the pic ? Fantastic_Damage ?

actually i stole the pic from your personal album

Oh yeah, right. I had a picture from you, took by Fantastic_Damage. I didn't remember it. It's Lupe & Setipsychic who gave me this picture. They told me that they had to help you to take the position. Thanks for your info.

[Edited on 14-9-2002 by ultra_phoenix]

Did you know Ultra that the Queen of England,in the early 1970's Dissolved Parliament and called new elections in Australia?