LDS Criticizers

direct quote from titor from his own website "There is a civil war in the United States that starts in 2005."

no excuses. when 2006 gets here, he's a hoax

Ah, it has already started my friend. Just underground right now, and will be for several more years. It is everyone's mind that is getting ripped off by the major corporations, and mostly by those losing their health care.

Pat Buchanon's "peasants with pitch forks" is closer than one thinks.

Yes, I was talking about the Book of Abraham being the Book of Breathings, an ancient Egyptian funeral text completely mistranslated by Joseph Smith and altered to replace the animal-head gods of the ancient Egyptians with human heads to show his view of the history of Abraham.

All respectable Egyptologists say his "translation" of the text was a complete fraud and showed no understanding of thee Egyptian culture or language.

Plus, the history of the text is not disputed, the LDS itself says it is the original papyrus that J.S. claimed to get the Book of Abraham from.

edit:

In addition, even most LDS scholars admit there's simply no reliable geography or archaeology to the Book of Mormon. All the cities, locations, etc. are nonexistant to modern science. You can catch a plane to Jerusalem, take a tour of Bethlehem, excavate the ruins of Egypt etc., places found in the Bible proper, but no evidence of any place mentioned in the Book of Mormon has ever been found.

[edit on 7/1/2005 by djohnsto77]

Who has seen, lived through and avoided the scams of used car salesmen, flim-flam artists, 'fiction' writers, politicians, and preachers (man, Jimmy Swaggart had some action going) for parts of two centuries.

Originally posted by lost
what nation are you form chakotay? many native americans (or didi you mean INDIA?) embrace the LDS religion because of the history it tells of their ancestors long ago.

Tsalagi Aniyunwiya Cherokee Anidjiskwa Bird Clan. No Native American Indian with half a brain would embrace a religion that presents:

1. a false archaeological record;
   
2. paints our Ancestors as racist enemies and racial inferiors;
   
3. painted up its members like Indians to make murderous raids on the Americans- for which WE were held to blame;
   
4. that came to this land Uninvited, Unwanted, and Untrue;
   
5. that attempts to limit LIBERTY in the name of submission to authority;
   
6. that demeans women to a subordinate role;
   
7. and that is not in accordance with the ORIGINAL INSTRUCTIONS given to our Peoples.
   

others still have difficulty abolishing some of their rituals and culture for a new religion.

That is a patronizing understatement. We will NEVER abolish our Ancestors teachings nor ever abandon our Cultures for any 'new religion'.

anyways, the LDS religion is just as legit as all the others, if not more.

Exactly my point. As far as we are concerned, you can all roll up your snake oil tents and move on- preferably offshore. Of course, if you want to live our way, you're welcome to stay and marry my sisters. I expect reciprocation.

I just got home from a night shift, so I'm too tired to reply to the points here. On my next day off (Monday) I'm going to set up a FAQ thread for Mormons and you can ask all the stuff you want

One really quick answer I can give right now, though, is to saint4god's question: "Aren't Mormons not permitted to marry outside of the church? Just clarifying, I don't know. I think it's brought up on that link I cited above." Mormons ARE allowed to marry outside of the church, but it is not encouraged, because of the Mormon beliefs about the afterlife. We believe that two Mormons who are married in a mormon temple will remain married in heaven (provided they didn't divorce) and that non-temple marriages are 'till death do we part'.

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
We believe that two Mormons who are married in a mormon temple will remain married in heaven (provided they didn't divorce)

Why is this contrary to what Jesus says?

Matthew 22:28 (Sadduccees speaking here of re-marrying after consecutive husbands die) -

"Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"
Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like angels in heaven."



[edit on 2-7-2005 by saint4God]

While it is true that no one is forced to go on a mission, there is a TON of pressure to go. I converted to mormonism when I was 20 and living in the provo area. Being that age and not having gone on a mission, in utah no less, was an awful experience. It even came up in job interviews. Not to mention trying to date a mormon girl when you're labeled 'unclean'.

i can absolutely applaud anyone who has an opinion on anything. for those of you who have anything (truth and opposition) about the mormon church well, GGOOOODD for you! i live here in idaho falls and how sad it is to see how people hold fast to the ridiculous religion. how sad they don't realize it for the fraudulent religion it is. For you morons, 'scuse me mormons when you die and stand before God before your fall to the halls of hell you can's say to God "lord, i didn't know" because he just might say "hey i put many people on the ats website to speak the truth and you refused to hear it! now get away from me for i never you!!" i pray that you open your eyes and get straight with God and learn the truth. momonism is a lie and satan's greatest tool is ignorance!! so read the ONLY book that counts-the HOLY BIBLE

[edit on 3-9-2005 by vonwoolf appollonia]

You've got to be kidding me

Originally posted by vonwoolf appollonia
Lots and lots of pointless babbling rhetoric

What's your point, vonwoolf?

Your beliefs are bigger/better/more valid/more expensive/pinker/greener/bluer/meaner than everyone else?

No, really.

What was the point of your post?

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

Originally posted by vonwoolf appollonia
Lots and lots of pointless babbling rhetoric

What's your point, vonwoolf?

Your beliefs are bigger/better/more valid/more expensive/pinker/greener/bluer/meaner than everyone else?

No, really.

What was the point of your post?

That's the message I got.

his/her point was only one book counts; THE HOLY BIBLE..


yeah, so back to discussion eh? theres no need to discuss all the agendas the bible has been manipulated for.

I was raised in the Mormon Church. I wasnt aware that RM questions come up in job interviews, but then I dont live in Provo. That right there pretty much captures everything I cant stand about the religion. Its the silly dogmas people put up. To be quite honest however, all of those quirks that really turn me off, are faults of people. HUMAN mistakes.

marshmellow jello and the likes...

The religion, if true (dont know myself -havent executed the faith necessary) -tells one of the most interesting stories ever written. Be it fact or fiction, the BoM is a very riveting book if you can read past all the broken old english. The actual story would make an amazing film.. lol.

Chakotay, Im sorry if I insulted you. I know many Native Americans who indeed embrace the religion. You can choose to recognize them as your Indian family or not, but surely you cannot speak for the entirety of Native Americans. Also, regardless the scams you claim to have avoided, you seemingly fell for same typical pride and bias that clouds ones world view.

Also, Ive read that Joseph Smith and his BoM have been somewhat vindicated by the DeadSeaScrolls etc... I could be wrong, but as far as logic and proof go - Mormonism has not been debunked.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
This page might provide some interesting insight;

And excerpt from another site follows:

After scientists completed the chemical and electrical tests, Stanley B. Kimball, writing in the Mormon periodical Ensign, admitted that the Kinderhook plates were a hoax...

Here we have a Mormon scholar concluding that the plates were not ancient in nature.

More information here and even more, here

I'm not sure it hasn't been "debunked" - though it seems that even if the premise was proven to be false, it doesn't lessen the beliefs surrounding that premise.

And belief is what it's all about

(My guess would be that even if someone proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus was an amalgamation of characters and not just one being, the majority of believers would still believe in the divinity of Christ)

and my guess is you're leaning in favor of a tasty deception.

we can end the 'proof' argument right here and now. THERE IS NONE. atleast none available to the masses. the proof is for the individual to acquire. through faith.

bring me 100 scientists that say the plates are fake, and theres still potential for 101 scientists to say the opposite next year. explain for me the science behind such claims, but Im still submitting to your idea of 'science'.

My only point is;

As far as logic and the understanding of eternity goes, Mormonism stands as good a chance as any religion, (i.e. not much). However, since logic cannot crack the cosmos, I proclaim that of all the relgions, Mormonism resounds more true (though logically unexplicable) than any other religion.

Jesus was the Son of God. He is the Christ. Satan will have you believe the great deception that none of those characters ever existed. He will tell stories that make everything logically 'ok'. It will make sense finally.

Funny though, because such 'sense' will be the biggest lie ever told.

Originally posted by lost
and my guess is you're leaning in favor of a tasty deception.

Not really. I just look for facts and evidence. *shrug*. I have nothing to gain from favouring one side over the other, in terms of what I believe.

we can end the 'proof' argument right here and now. THERE IS NONE. atleast none available to the masses. the proof is for the individual to acquire. through faith.

Apparently even Mormon experts have conceded the plates are fake. I haven't seen them - but then I'm a) not Mormon, and b) don't have the archeological expertise with which to view them anyway...so that's probably moot. So is their proof less valid than your belief?

bring me 100 scientists that say the plates are fake, and theres still potential for 101 scientists to say the opposite next year. explain for me the science behind such claims, but Im still submitting to your idea of 'science'.

That's illogical. Sure, there's the potential for disagreement - but based upon what? If it's based on the same science which was used to find the plates being fake, is the excuse still going to be "the science was wrong", or "your idea of "science" isn't the same as mine"? It sounds as if "science" is being made the scapegoat here.

As far as logic and the understanding of eternity goes, Mormonism stands as good a chance as any religion, (i.e. not much). However, since logic cannot crack the cosmos, I proclaim that of all the relgions, Mormonism resounds more true (though logically unexplicable) than any other religion.

And that's fine. That's your opinion, and you're obviously entitled to that belief

Jesus was the Son of God. He is the Christ. Satan will have you believe the great deception that none of those characters ever existed. He will tell stories that make everything logically 'ok'. It will make sense finally.

Funny though, because such 'sense' will be the biggest lie ever told.

Perhaps.

Perhaps not.

This can go around in circles forever; you say one thing, I disagree and say another - neither of us is factually more right than the other, as neither of us can offer any definitive evidence that Jesus was or was not the Son of God. It's about belief. You have it - I don't. That's about all there is to it

Well, I couldnt agree more.

I like a cordial conversation as much as the next guy. And I apologize for being sharp about it. Fact is, we dont know. We discuss it all day on the internet, like you said 'going in circles.'

Personally, there is no more an uplifting story than the story of Jesus Christ. Be it fiction, fact or a bit of both, I love that story. I most desperatley want it to be true. I do not have proof. Not even for myself. There are some to claim to have gained proof for themselves, but I have not yet.

Discussing religion can be frustrating and rather pointless from an academic point of view.

So, i would emplore you and anyone else who wants to know if the Mormon Church is true, to figure it out for themselves. That goes for any religion. There will be roadblocks, and/or academic contradictions. Discovering truth is an action. Do it by being.

But this thread is about LDS criticisms. there are a number of criticisms that even I endorse. For example, I cant stand the happygolucky minivan nation of soccermoms. I dont like the 'fellowshipping' overly anxiousness to be my friend. I dont like going to church for damn near 4 hours on sundays. Mostly, I dont like the blatant hypocricy that members of the church can be caught engaged in all the time, especially in Utah.

However, none of these things discredit the BoM.

Aparently there are sciences and 'expert opinions' that DO discredit the BoM. I have read many of them. And frankly, as convincing as they may be, they arent near as powerfull as the power of Jesus Christ. Thats just me I guess. Ive given up logic for what vibrates more true. blah... you get the idea. God bless, and good luck.

Tinkleflower: Apparently even Mormon experts have conceded the plates are fake. I haven't seen them - but then I'm a) not Mormon, and b) don't have the archeological expertise with which to view them anyway...so that's probably moot. So is their proof less valid than your belief?

Yes, the Kinderhook plates are pretty much universally considered to be fake nowadays. Some fairly exhaustive tests were performed by a physics professor, who concluded they were 19th century fabrications based on age tests and because the method of etching used was consistent with 19th century technology. I also consider them to be fake, based on my research. Other than a third hand account in one member's journal, I haven't read anything that suggests Smith ever made an attempt to translate them, however. A local newspaper did state that they hoped Smith would provide a translation soon, but he never did.

Tinkleflower: The religion, if true (dont know myself -havent executed the faith necessary) -tells one of the most interesting stories ever written. Be it fact or fiction, the BoM is a very riveting book if you can read past all the broken old english. The actual story would make an amazing film.. lol.

I agree with this. Whether it's true or not, the BoM is an interesting book to read. I've said this before on other threads, but it is useful to read just to help understand the Mormon religion, even if you don't believe a word of it. That's why I try to learn about other religions as much as I can, not because I have any plans to convert, but because I find them interesting and because I want to better understand other people and where they're coming from. (Incidentally, I have heard on the 'mormon grapevine' that a BoM movie is actually in the works, although I don't know how true that is)

"religion" that is based on faith of GOD. Jesus warned against religion anyway and dad burned if we didn't go make one up after him. Another one of man's follies.

Originally posted by prepared4thefuture
Why are so many people so urgent to criticize the mormon religion. Most people claim and prove it as a negative thing, because they believe that the only reason the faith is becoming much more vast is because the leaders force the members to go on a 2-year mission to spread the faith, but if people actually knew what was going on, they'd know that the people who serve the missions actually choose to go on them...

And you know what? The leaders of the LDS Church are actually tightening the requirements for those who want to serve a mission. Until the past year, you pretty much had to have a desire to go, be a member for one year, and not have had any major sins committed within the past year so you would have time to repent fully.

Now, if you have committed ANY type of major sin, you can still repent yourself of it, but you may not be eligible to EVER serve a mission. If there was ever a bigger debunker of the conspiracy of LDS missionaries, this is it.

Plus, if you compare the ratio of the members of the church to the number of active missionaries, the number of missionaries is actually growing smaller. Conspiracy indeed...

Originally posted by BillyD
While it is true that no one is forced to go on a mission, there is a TON of pressure to go. I converted to mormonism when I was 20 and living in the provo area. Being that age and not having gone on a mission, in utah no less, was an awful experience. It even came up in job interviews. Not to mention trying to date a mormon girl when you're labeled 'unclean'.

Dude... you were down in Happy Valley. They are wierdos down there. The fact that it came up in JOB interviews makes my blood boil. I've never had that happen to me, and it embarrasses me and the whole Church if someone was acting in that way.

Remember that there is a different between the LDS religion and Utah Culture. On that note, there is a difference between Utah culture and Provo culture.

Moving on, here is why I value the Book of Mormon.

It talks about Jews that escaped Jerusalem to the Americas where they flourished. Jesus appears to them after his resurrection and institutes Christianity. They receive the same message as the disciples in the New Testament - Jesus Christ died for our sins, and was resurrected. He broke the bonds of Death and Sin for us.

Look at things this way: There are many books that teach they are the only way to God. Each one has similarities and differences from the others. Their geographies border each other. What I mean is that many different religions are located in countries that are in open communication with each other - they are aware of each other's existance.

However, a few thousand miles across the ocean, there was a group of people who's idea of God and salvation PERFECTLY matched one of the other ones across the ocean. On top of this, these two civilizations had no idea of the other's existance.

If that doesn't change the scoreboard to "Christianity: 1, Everyone Else, 0" then I don't know what will.

Anyway, a major obstacle in this is that people will refute forever the validity of the Book of Mormon. No one will EVER be able to prove it to be true.

Here is what we LDS folks have to say:

God love us all - He wants us all to return to Him. In the Book of James in the New Testament, it says that you can ask God questions and he will give you answers. The LDS Church invites everyone on the planet to read the Book of Mormon, ponder its messages, and then kneel and ask God ALONE AND BY THEMSELVES SO NO ONE IS DISTRACTING THEM if the Book of Mormon is true, and if Joseph Smith really was a prophet.

That is the core and fundamental thing that LDS missionaries are taught to do - they bring that invitation. I served a mission for two years in Rome, Italy, and I know people who have done this.

I did it myself. I had to because I couldn't go around my whole life and believe something because my parents or Church leaders said I should. I don't give a rat's hoot what anyone else thinks or says, because I got my answer.

[edit on 7-9-2005 by trinitrotoluene]

I was baptised LDS 21 July '91. I am of a Judea-Christian lineage. I have read both the Torah (old testament), New Testament, Book of Mormon, and read excerpts of the Koran on the internet.

I have no regrets about coming into the LDS philosophy. They acknowledge my Jewish/Christian lineage and for health reasons am unable to attend church.

My husband is neither Jewish, or LDS and he is readily accepted by those who come to see me.

I am not being taught how to think, but am allowed to express my own thoughts and experiences in relations to the texts.

With the society becoming undisciplined and crumbling; there has to be some foundation for humanity. Earth is a school for which we learn from our experiences. The scriptures; regardless what religion, are there to serve as guideposts should we get lost, or lose our way.

I don't judge anybody based on thier religious preferences. To me, at the end of the day, faith is all important to ride you through any storm. I have debts and problems like everybody else, but my faith maintains me through any storm.

Being an LDS member is like having an extended family. It isn't a cult, or anything near a cult description. It has members from all walks of life.

One Christmas, when I was married to my ex-husband, he had lost his job as his employer was cutting back on staff. He had gone for a job interview and I was with him. When we came back there was a load of shopping waiting for us. That took a lot of weight off my mind that year.

I am unable to attend meetings with my Jewish family and LDS family because of my health. However, I know that it is not a cult. It is set up similiar to the Jewish synod of ancient times in respect that each ward has a Bishopric and priesthood. It recognizes people who are of Jewish lineage and backgrounds. For me, it is a positive experience and they even have investigator classes to help those to decide if it is right for them. Nobody is forced to join and nobody is perfect; but the LDS is not and never has been a cult.