Jesus : An invention of princes ?

www.jesuspuzzle.com is a pretty good site to go to, it basically believes jesus never existed, but was a construct of earlier messiahs. Its an interesting site.

Jury is still out on whether he really existed or not, or within the time frame. There are other historical innacuracies of the time that point out flaws in the bible account. Some Roman authors mentioned him, but only long after his death, so they never saw nor met the dude.

The dead sea scrolls seem to note that a person like jesus might have existed, as a rebel sect of Judism with a couple of followers, the Essenes.

Who knows though> archaologists might find a fossilized jesus still stuck to the stick someday, then well know for sure!

I want to continue this discussion but I've been real busy. I'll gather some info and present within the next couple of days or so.



ONE

when I post this thread I was thinking of the relations between church (pope) and power (princes) in italy, in rebirth (renaissance) and early middle age. (Borigia, Medicis...)...

Some people think that in these times, there was a sort of pact between popes and princes, to maintain peoples in fear of judgment day and church power...

Originally posted by Tamahu
I want to continue this discussion but I've been real busy. I'll gather some info and present within the next couple of days or so.



ONE

~~~

discussion..?...(presenting an info trail, is all i did...
Jagedflieger can look or not...a convicted/convinced
heart is not easily changed...)

Of course, there is a 2 thousand year campaign of
spin & trickery & fabrications to overcome...the blurring
of facts-fictions-reality-metaphor
WHICH WE ARE CHALLENGED TO PROVE WRONG
ON A SINGLE---> page, post or paper
~~but, what the hay~~

What has go on before:

Quote from Tamahu:
Jesus is a mythical person who's story is based on the sages/avatars and Buddhas such as: Yeshua, Shakyamuni Buddha, Horus, Tammuz, Tutankhamen, Krishna and the previous Buddhas in general among a few others.

Quote from jagdflieger (as response):
Tamahu Would you like to post some comments supporting your assertions to indicate how Shayki Buddha, Krishna, Horus, etc. are incorporated into what you call the "Jesus story". What you have given us is basically a bunch of assertions which state that some link exists. Yet you give no details as to what these links are or any documentation to support your contentions. In my part of the world this is also called "a lot of hot air".

Quote from riffraffalunas:
IN support of Tamahu, you will find much evidence & supporting links by checking out ESSENES NAZOREAN order (the volume of material, sooo large)
essenes.crosswinds.net...

Quote from jagdflieger (as a response):
Again all we see is air. Again no specific web pages, documents, etc. which show the how Shakyamuni Buddha, Krishna, etc. can be related to Jesus. Again all we see are assertions with no specifics. Basically the web site is full of gnostic writings, most of which have been throughly refuted elsewhere. Gentlemen you have proven nothing except you can make assertions without one iota of evidence to support your statements. Where I come from that is called "a lot of hand waving" while still keeping the ballon aloft with hot air. Would you be so kind as to give some details to support your statements.

Quote from tamahu:
Jagedflieger, Riffraffalunas, Skadi..
I want to continue this discussion but I've been real busy. I'll gather some info and present within the next couple of days or so. 

Quote from riffraffalunas
discussion..?...(presenting an info trail, is all i did... Jagedflieger can look or not...a convicted/convinced heart is not easily changed...) Of course, there is a 2 thousand year campaign of spin & trickery & fabrications to overcome...the blurring of facts-fictions-reality-metaphor WHICH WE ARE CHALLENGED TO PROVE WRONG ON A SINGLE---> page, post or paper ~~but, what the hay~~

What you have done is made a bunch of assertions and when asked to provide evidence to support your thesis you essentially pointed to the library and said, �Well it is in there.� Again I ask, post specific arguments, links to web pages, etc. to back up your assertions. Yes I did check your �info trail� and found that it lead nowhere. This leads me to the following conclusions:
1. You are not really prepared to back up your assertions with specific evidence. If you were prepared, you could have posted specific links to documents supporting you thesis.
2. The reason you have not really done so is because these assertions were �sound bytes� you heard from someone else which happen to coincide with your particular view point. In short you have heard these statements and have accepted them as such and really have no idea where to find supporting evidence. For indeed if you did know of such supportive evidence, you would have posted arguments and links to specific web pages rather than the home page of some web site.

Again I ask you, please post specific information as to how elements of the story of Shaymuni Buddha, Krishna ,Horus, Tammuz, etc. are integrated in the story of Jesus. Where I come from, the balloon is reaching the stratosphere.



[Edited on 21-8-2003 by jagdflieger]

To all concerned see links....

www.bobkwebsite.com...

www.nobeliefs.com...

I feel its important to remember that all faiths have in general everything in common.

Any thoughts?

I have no freaking clue why I'm here, If there is a god... Where did he come from? Its really dissapointing if you think about how unprobbable it is that there is a god, I hate thinking I just die... I think there is something out there something deep or I hope but I also think if it wanted us to know, It would prove it... But I doubt that the christian God (Jehova) is real considering the fact that there were people on earth for a long long time before he proved he was there.
Also Isnt there there a theory that seems to make alot fo sense, The moon was once part of earth and earth was struck by a giant object from space whatever it was and broke a chunk off and made earth a big chunk o' junk for a while, then reformed as the earth and the moon, Well then did god do this? was he bored one day and decided to chuck a rock at earth or some crap? I think not I think maybe these people knew what was going on, But we probably lost that. So I will always wonder and search for the truth but I doubt I will find it... Or maybe that theory isnt even true... I duno I just think that christianity isnt extremely beleiveable... I dont deny any religion.

Edit: I will try to find some info backing up the thing about how the moon was part or earth, I remember seeing it somewhere.
This isnt the best link I can find but it has the theory in it.
english.pravda.ru...
[Edited on 22-8-2003 by Beaverman]

[Edited on 22-8-2003 by Beaverman]

For a general refutation of the Parallels to the Jesus Myth see my posting in (near bottom of Page 1):
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Also see "What Atheists think about Graves" (Bottom of Page 2):
www.abovetopsecret.com...

For atheist comments on Graves work and Jesus parallels in general see:
www.infidels.org...

To quote Mr. James Carrier (atheist author of above page):
"I have confirmed only two real "resurrected" deities with some uncanny similarity to Jesus which are actually reported before Christian times, Zalmoxis and Inanna, neither of which is mentioned by Graves or John G. Jackson."

For more on Osiris, Horus, and Jesus "parallels see":
www.tektonics.org...

And finally for comments on a historical Jesus see:
www.tektonics.org...

www.tektonics.org...

tektonics.org...

All from the first link.....

Critics should remember that the scenes described are literally carved in stone on the walls of the Temple at Luxor and stand as an original source of mythical elements of the Horus myth.

Again, critics should remember that the Osiris myth resurrection scenes described are literally carved in stone on the walls of the Temple of Osiris at Denderah and the Temple of Isis at Philae and stand as original sources of mythical elements of the Osiris myth.

Critics should remember that the mythical elements of the Bel-Marduk myth are literally carved in stone on Marduk's Ordeal tablet/Assyrian Bel Myth Tablet which stands as an original source of mythical elements of the Bel-Marduk myth.

There are two passages in Acts which contradict this chronological sequence:

Acts 5:30: The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree [emphasis added].

Acts 10:39: And we were witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree [emphasis added]

Notice that the sequences in Acts is thus: (1) Jesus is slain/dies/is dead; (2) Jesus is hung upon a tree.

The sequence of execution/death by crucifixion is not the same as the sequence of execution/death by some unknown method and then being hung upon a tree.

From another link.......

Then there was the infamous Yeishu ben Pandeira, or in Greek, Panderos. He was also known as Yeishu haNotzri, [Jesus the Christian] a well known Notzrim. Some Talmudic scholars believe the story of Jesus began with Yeishu, the name is the Hebrew diminutive for Jesus. However, Christians adamantly deny that this is the Jesus of the Gospels. The only information that we have of Yeishu comes from the Tosefta and the Baraitas. The information within the Baraitas states that Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah once repelled Yeishu with both hands. Yeishu was a magician considered to have led the Jews to error and sin. Yeishu had five disciples: Mattai, Naqai, Neitzer, Buni, and Todah. Note that Mattai and Todah are the original Hebrew forms of Matthew and Thaddaeus. Charges were brought against Yeishu who was stoned. Afterwards his body strung up on a pole. All this occurred on the eve of Passover. This latter detail about the death of Yeishu cannot be lost upon the casual observer.


goodelyfe.healingwell.com...

It really is just a matter of faith I feel Jesus was a real person, but its important to be objective.

Any thoughts?

I believe that there was a great teacher named/called Jesus, but that much of his story is piecemealed myth from various sources, and bias...hence, the often contradictions of his life in the Bible....

Reply to Toltec:
The fabulous images of Gerald Massey (Ancient Egypt: Light of the World) and John G. Jackson (Christianity Before Christ). We have heard of them, but who has actually seen them? Every atheist in the world has probably read these two books. These books have been quoted by atheist sites again and again. There is always references to the carvings on the temple walls and tenement halls. But pardon my French, I have yet to see one flipping photograph of said carvings. We keep hearing about them but would like to see them.

On Acts: 5:30
NIV translation:
29. Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men!
30. The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead--whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.
NASB translation:
29. But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men.
30. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
KJV translation:
29. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

On Acts 10:39
NIV translation:
38. how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39. "We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree,
NASB translation:
38. even Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
KJV Translation:
38. How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

These are reports on what was said by people, not a record of what happened.

On Yeishu ben Pandeira:
Apparently he lived around 100 BCE, a little too early to be Jesus of the Bible. Again the skeptics are attempting to deny Jesus Christ as a historical person by saying that the "Jesus myth" was really this Yeishu ben Pandeira.

See link as well as included links...

www.jesusneverexisted.com...

Jagd just like anything else what said was recorded its no different. That aspect of your response makes little sense.

As far as translations I use the Thompson Chain Reference Bible.

[Edited on 23-8-2003 by Toltec]

I suppose you mean the image at web page:

www.jesusneverexisted.com...

However read the links:
touregypt.net...
www.guardians.net...

Which deals with Amenhotep III (1382-1344 BC) son of Thutmosis IV and Queen Mutemwiya.

"However, it portrays the creator god, Khnum of Elephantine (at modern Aswan) with his ram head, fashioning the child and his ka on a potter's wheel under the supervision of the goddess Isis. The god Amun is then led to Amenhotep III's mother by Thoth, god of wisdom, after which Amun is shown in the presence the godesses of Hathor and Hut of while they nurse the future king".

"One of the famous reliefs on the east side of this temple consists of a royal birth scene, which served to establish the legitimacy of his rule by depicting his birth directly from the god Amun."

So now the pharoah Amenhotep III mysticizing his own birth to show he was descended from the gods (and therefore was Horus) becomes the basis for Jesus Christ.

Is your urge to bash Christianity so bad that you will accept anything written on an Atheist web site which does without doing any futher checking as to the validity of the claims?

[Edited on 23-8-2003 by jagdflieger]

The mythology and symbolism relative to Osiris and Horus is rather complicated ... In ancient Egypt the kings were gods; the living king was the Horus and the dead king was the Osiris.

Jackson, p. 96, cites a Professor Hocart as saying the following:

Osiris, after his death, became a king in the underworld ... and from his dead body his successor, Horus, is conceived. But every dead king is Osiris and every living king Horus. Thus Osiris and Horus are really the same, Horus being the living form of Osiris, an Osiris the dead form of Horus. There is thus a succession of men who are killed, become gods, and are succeeded by their posthumous sons. ... (A. M. Hocart, Social Origins, London, Watts and Co., 1954, pp. 79-82.)

As well see link.....

www.belinus.co.uk...

Jagd do you know what a Setian or Sethian is?

Its important to remember that Reincarnation is very relevant to this system of belief.

Any thoughts?

If you mean the Sethian Gnostics, No I am not that familar with them. Truthfully, I am not that interested in the study of Gnosticism. Their writings tend to be boring. For the study of non-Christian beliefs, I prefer reading about Krishna, Balarama, Ajurna, the Pandavas. These are very interesting characters.

Set or as some refer to him Seth, was the brother to Osiris which turned against him and killed him.

Jagd this is a story about Human sacrifices, cannibalism and the forces which developed that ended that philosophy and the form of consumption (in general).

Certain legends do offer the idea that the fruit of the tree of knowledge and good and evil, was applied from the context of applying the word tree in the context of linage (But I am digressing).

Set according to what I was taught was a believer in the validity of performing human sacrifices as necessary to appease the Gods.

Osiris his brother was not and this conflict between them was what resulted in his death (Osiris). One really needs to understand the context in which this took place to understand that what Osiris was presenting was a really new way to think.

This has been an issue in ever culture, creed and race and at some point someone did come along and did everything in his power to change it.

As a result such people were condemned and killed by those who feared condemnation for not using humans as sacrifices to God(s). Eventually, it was someone of importance (leader, king or prophet) and because of what ensued the behavior of sacrificing humans stopped.

A Setian is a believer in the way's of Set one who acknowledges the validity of performing human sacrifices to appease God, this is not the same as a modern day Satanist. Again to my knowledge there were those Pharaohs who claimed to be a reincarnation of Horus and those who claimed to be a reincarnation
of Set (though as time passed the practice became less common).

Any Thoughts?

Not sure if this is of any use to what is going on in this thread,......
helen.....Found it while browsing!

www.truthbeknown.com...