Women of the Lodge

news.bbc.co.uk...

"....The Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Masons, one of the two orders of women Freemasons in this country. "Note they forget to name the other lodge.

Also the call each other "brother" right thats for the effect than is it? Or are they a bit... you know... tom-boyish?!?


Nevertheless an interesting piece by the beeb and just after me and a mate we discussing female masons in the pub the night before.

Originally posted by Corinthas
"....The Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Masons, one of the two orders of women Freemasons in this country. "Note they forget to name the other lodge.

I'm afraid the Beeb got the name wrong - it's the Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons - and their website can be found at www.hfaf.org...

The other female grand lodge in the UK is the OWF - if you want to get in touch with them they don't have a website but can be contacted at:

The Order of Women's Freemasons
27 Pembridge Gardens
London W2 4EF
United Kingdom

I wouldn't assume this is a legal masonic body...?

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I wouldn't assume this is a legal masonic body...?

Or phrased thusly:
"I would assume this is not a legal Masonic body."

While we may agree or disagree with "the exclusion of women from our assemblies", therein is the position of all current Charters, and therein is why organizations that borrow the Masonic title are considered "irregular" or illegal.

Not "regularly assembled" or "properly dedicated", etc etc, ad infinitum, until fraternities and sororities exist no more.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I wouldn't assume this is a legal masonic body...?

Or phrased thusly:
"I would assume this is not a legal Masonic body."

While we may agree or disagree with "the exclusion of women from our assemblies", therein is the position of all current Charters, and therein is why organizations that borrow the Masonic title are considered "irregular" or illegal.

Not "regularly assembled" or "properly dedicated", etc etc, ad infinitum, until fraternities and sororities exist no more.

forgive me bretherin if you do not agree with my statement. i have only been a mason for alittle over 3 months now. but honestly, would it be SO BAD if women were allowed to join us in our search for knowledge and brotherhood?

If you are a member of a "Regular" Lodge, then until your local Grand Lodge recognises the Grand Lodge/ Lodges in question, they are clandestin by deffinition.

Unfortunatly, with respect to Women in regular lodges, there is the small matter of the third degree obligation.

Originally posted by Masonic Student


Unfortunatly, with respect to Women in regular lodges, there is the small matter of the third degree obligation.

hmmm... must be some requirement to piss your name in the snow or something...huh?

Originally posted by umwolves123
would it be SO BAD if women were allowed to join us in our search for knowledge and brotherhood?

In a world where there is VERY little left that is exclusively for a man to enjoy the company of and bond with other men, it is very nice and, in my opinion, IMPORTANT to have something like Freemasonry, where we all spend time together working for the common goal of bettering ourselves.

Part of Freemasonry's beauty and appeal is its exclusivity and ability to make members feel like they are part of something truly unique and special. Making new exceptions and changing membership requirements would hamper that effect of exclusivity.

I thought women couldn't be in a brotherhood such as masonry...now I am just confused...

Women CANT be, but there are some "illegal" organizations that have sprouted up claiming to be masonic but which allow women to join.

Women have been allowed into the Freemasons for at least 200 years now.
From my understanding of the cult though, they generally believe that women are an essential but inferior element in the human psyche so they are effectively "Bound within the Square" of the physical world and therefore not privy to the higher mysteries.

I'm still at odds with Sister H P Blavatsky though - I have read in some places she was actually bestowed the 32nd Degree of The Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite in honor of her works, particularly "Isis Unveiled" and "The Secret Doctrine."

Anyone know of any other "High Level" female Freemasons?

They are tonsssssssssssssss of places where men can meet exclusively.
(Sports, business clubs, discussion groups, bars, etc...)

Plus they don't need to engulf that need in complex systems of symbology and esotery.


Come on.

The masonry teaching have nothing to do with fraternity
and all to do with esotery.


Put all things into place.



I totally agree that men can have a place to meet
in between, but it doesn't or shouldn't be masonry.

Because it doesn't make sense to divise
esotery teachings between the sexes.


Ok...no.....Here's how I see it:
there could always be masons group
only open to men or women,
but they should be a minority,
for those seeking that sort of contexts.



I think the masons should become a
non-oath, non-initiative esoteric group
open to the public at large.

There I've said it.



Cedric Phi

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Women have been allowed into the Freemasons for at least 200 years now.
From my understanding of the cult though, they generally believe that women are an essential but inferior element in the human psyche

No, women have not ever been allowed into Freemasonry. What are you talking about?!? There have been ISOLATED INCIDENTS of women having been conferred degrees of Freemasonry, but that doesn't mean that the fraternity accepts women.

Secondly, nobody in Freemasonry believes that women are inferior. Actually, I'm sure Freemasons believe many things, but this is by no means a general belief. There are few, if any, general beliefs in Freemasonry. Individual thought is of paramount importance to the fraternity. This is why it cannot be considered a cult.

Now, quit lying through your teeth.


[edit on 12-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by Centiment





They are tonsssssssssssssss of places where men can meet exclusively.
(Sports, business clubs, discussion groups, bars, etc...)

Plus they don't need to engulf that need in complex systems of symbology and esotery.


Come on.

The masonry teaching have nothing to do with fraternity
and all to do with esotery.


Put all things into place.



I totally agree that men can have a place to meet
in between, but it doesn't or shouldn't be masonry.

Because it doesn't make sense to divise
esotery teachings between the sexes.


Ok...no.....Here's how I see it:
there could always be masons group
only open to men or women,
but they should be a minority,
for those seeking that sort of contexts.



I think the masons should become a
non-oath, non-initiative esoteric group
open to the public at large.

There I've said it.



Cedric Phi

so why shouldnt men be alowed to meet together as freemasons again? what on earth is your logic. and second of all why should freemasonry turn into a non oath and non initive group? how then would we seperate ourselves as brothers from others whom are not freemasons? and by the way we ARE open to the public at large.

(Sports, business clubs, discussion groups, bars, etc...)

Just so you know women are allow in all those places now.

>>>>so why shouldnt men be alowed to meet together as freemasons >>>>>again? what on earth is your logic.



My logic is to figure out what is illogic about freemasonry.


Men SHOULD be allowed to meet other men freemasons,
if they insist on creating a specific lodge,

but I would suggest a reform of freemasonry, because
I have read enough about it (their books and all)
to evaluate that there is no reason that masonry
teaching be divised in sex. (unless they are rites
where men get nude and that would embarass
them, but I don't think that is the case,
and at any rates that lead to the next question)


>>>>>>why should freemasonry turn into a non oath and non initive group?


Because they are unneccessary to the major esoteric lessons that the masons are trying to teach.

I could start a lodge tomorrow and claim the participants
that they will be no oaths and initiations, but instead
a series of lessons, such as a series of course in a university.

The fact of paying the fees for the course becomes
the "union" seal that distinguish a freemason
from the rest of society (if you will), but the oaths,
initiation, and secrets are only forms of tradition
that don't lead to much, while alienating everyone
about the aims of freemasonry.


Masonry should shift from fraternity to
a school of esoteric philosophy to get
rid of the confusion.

If they are fraternities to happen,
they exist within it, the same
that they are alcoholic anonymous
groups for man only.


The gender requisite of masonry,
or the fact of separating women lodges,
is not pertinent with the aims of masonry,
which are inherently more about self-research
than brotherhood.



>>>how then would we seperate ourselves as brothers from others whom >>>>are not freemasons?


Diplomas. Degrees. A tag or a pin on your clothes.

A passport, that would be the best option.


Who cares in the end ?

I can so easily salute you like a mason
and I am not ?


You would find out after a couple discussion
if the person is a real mason, but
the little theatrics's gotta go.


An identity card will do.
Learning code phrases is
not any more difficult than
faking a card. There is no
point to it, like in fact,
THERE IS NO POINT TO HIDE
FROM ANYTHING as a freemason
in 2005.



>>>>we ARE open to the public at large.


You don't discuss openly about freemason lessons
with non-masons. I see no logic behind that.
It's just esotery.



>>>>>Just so you know women are allow in all those places now.


There's always gay clubs.


I mean....you can start a group
of men anyday, you can all go camping together,
it doesn't have to be masonry, which goal
is to teach some esoteric knowledge.

The goals of freemasonry bypasses
its organization as a gender-based fraternity.


Some of this world's greatest architects are women
(Zaha Hadid).


Maybe freemasonry should return to
a group exclusive to architects ?


men + women but only architects.



Most of you would have no access to it.



cedric Phi

Originally posted by Centiment
I have read enough about it (their books and all) to evaluate that there is no reason that masonry teaching be divised in sex.

But there are masonic groups for women that teach the EXACT SAME THINGS. So what's the problem if men would prefer to receive this knowledge in a fraternal environment? It helps the learning process of esoteric secrets, the old mystery schools of greece were segregated as well.

>>>>>>why should freemasonry turn into a non oath and non initive group?

Because they are unneccessary to the major esoteric lessons that the masons are trying to teach.

That's not true either. Again, initiations and obligations are necessary to create and protect the esotericism of the lessons taught. The initiation process is the very way of teaching that makes Freemasonry's unique.

Masonry should shift from fraternity to a school of esoteric philosophy to get rid of the confusion.

So that it would be no different than AMORC or OTO?

The gender requisite of masonry, or the fact of separating women lodges,
is not pertinent with the aims of masonry, which are inherently more about self-research than brotherhood.

Absolutely not true. Brotherhood is just as, if not more, important to freemasonry as esoteric knowledge and self-discovery. Again, the brotherhood is one of the landmarks of Freemasonry. Take it away and the organization ceases to be masonic.

>>>>we ARE open to the public at large.

You don't discuss openly about freemason lessons with non-masons. I see no logic behind that. It's just esotery.

But that's the very definition of esotericism! Whoever is interested in the knowledge may have it, but they must come to our door and ask for it.

>>>>>Just so you know women are allow in all those places now.

I mean....you can start a group of men anyday, you can all go camping together, it doesn't have to be masonry, which goal is to teach some esoteric knowledge.

Yes it does, because this is HOW Freemasonry teaches its esoteric lessons. It is Freemasonry's "trade secrets", if you will.

>>>>So what's the problem if men would prefer to receive this knowledge >>>>in a fraternal environment?


There is no problems.


There could be men lodges, gay lodges, black lodges,
women lodges, catlovers lodges.


I am just saying that the freemasonry should accept
mixed lodges officially and let people decide
what kind of fraternity they want to evolve in.


As it is, with women lodges, they are supposed
to know your secrets...right ?


So...in my vision I have a wider definition
of fraternity that you seem to have.

I have no problems exchanging with women
about all sorts of subjects, especially esoteric.

If mixed lodges weren't demonized but officially
accepted, than...you let the people decide what they
want.



>>>Again, initiations and obligations are necessary to create and protect >>>the esotericism of the lessons taught.


Why ? There is nothing to protect !

That knowledge is harmless, and available widely
in a thousand books ???



>>>The initiation process is the very way of teaching that makes >>>>Freemasonry's unique.



It totally is distractive to the teachings.

People go into it for the thrill of passing initiations
and getting grades.


They are tests that don't need to be secret.
Have you seen Fear Factor ? We all know in advance
what is going to happen. You can keep some of the
intiations as tests without making such a fuss
about it.


As someone who read many things
before getting to read about initiations of masonry,
I didn't see how these would have taught me much.

Frankly....hours spend reading the right books is much more
fruitful than running around all days tagging a dozen degrees.
That is pure tradition, like eating turkey on christmas day.



In the end it is not that different than OTO,
but the big difference is that they are many "sciences"
in masonry that can be explored and discussed.

It would be more like a school of esotery than a cult.

As it is now to me it seems like a cult that pretend
not to be, that is why I think masonry could be reformed.


Does that make me an heretic ? lol



>>>>>Brotherhood is just as, if not more, important to freemasonry as >>>>>esoteric knowledge and self-discovery.


Yes, you want this so much to be true that you
will embrace all freemasons who don't give a damn
and quarrels with non-mansons who enjoy esotery.


Can't you see that no one knows what is fremasonry
until they reach high degrees ? And then what ? They realize
it's not for them ?

That system is a total failure.

It is much better to bring together
people likened minds from the start.

The brotherhood can sill go
on with identity passport.

No one is never a brother to no
one until they spent months
of living with them.


That term is balanced way too
easy.


A lot of masons, say, in france, snob
other masons. Not every lodges
are made equals. That is not true.

They are quarrels within the system too.


I think the masons are all old men and that the young men
coming up will see clear and propose a reform.
That is the only moral way to go.


Trust me, if Freemasons are filled
with "corporate evils", we can reform it and
kill that evil.


As far as I know freemasonry
is not a private society.
It's a tradition.

Who owns the Vatican ?
It passes from hands to hands,
centuries from centuries.

Same for the Grand Lodge.


You don't own it Sebat.

It can be reformed.




>>>>But that's the very definition of esotericism!


You're right. I'm used to the popular definition
that associate it with the study of hidden knowledge
(occult).

But if the esoteric knowledge is generally hidden
by nature, stars, gods, the universe, etc....

it doesn't mean that US HUMANS MUST
ALSO HIDE IT !

You know ?



>>>It is Freemasonry's "trade secrets", if you will.


Yet you always say that there is no secret in masonry
except modes of recognition.


You just insist on keeping the brotherhood.

There is nothing in masonry that a mature
man and a mature woman can't discuss together.


The brotherhood is just a preference.
It's chauvinism.


I dream that people who insist
hanging with men turn gay because
they can't be happy with women
if they can't feel free to discuss
anything with them.



cedric Phi

Originally posted by Centiment
There is nothing in masonry that a mature
man and a mature woman can't discuss together.

Look, I'm gonna sum it up for you and then I don't want to discuss this further because your posts are extremely long, confusing and pointless, and I hate reading them. I've given you several reasons why the fraternity is men-only, yet you insist on making your point, so I'm gonna dumb it down for you.

Freemasonry is a non-profit, volunteer organzation. It is designed as a fraternity, that means an initiatiory organization for men only. Freemasonic lodges can do whatever they want, any way they want. This means that if we want to exclude women, we can and we will, and we don't need a good reason for it.

If a woman wants to learn esoteric knowledge, she can pick up any number of books on Freemasonry or join Co-masonry, AMORC, OTO or any other esoteric organization. Period.

If women are involved why is it even considered Masonry?