Can Evolution be proven? or is it just a theory/religion?

Well, the E=MC2 man probably knew more then a guy who sacrificed a goat whenever there was an earthquake.

How to explain this, evolution, reality, science, are based on smart people who know things. IE E=MC2, or a2+b2=c2

Religon is based on the most ignorant of the ignorant. IE earthquakes were god, lightning was god, storms were god, disease were god, so forth.

Scientists study, reseacrh, hypothesis, and learn the truth.

Religon says world is flat, kills millions who disagree. Religon says earth is the center, then kills millions who disagree. Religon says evolution is wrong, but thankfully they haven't killed millions, just a few dozen.

Science is based on today.

Religon is based in 20bc-20ad men who sacrificed animals for a good harvest or set their daughters on fire for sneezing and not having anyone say god bless you.


So, who am I going to believe? People who burned people alive for using medicine or the people who made the medicine that cures millions a year. People who drowned people for being smart or the smart people who made the technology that allows us to breath underwater? People who threw people off cliffs for speaking their minds or the people who spoke their minds and made it possible to fly?

Originally posted by parabolee
If there was a beginning as you put how do you explain the beginning of god? Did god always exist?

Ah look, now we're finally getting somewhere.
In this question lies the very ignorance of claiming creationism is in any way less "intellectual" than denying creationism.
For anything to exist today, there must have been "something" that always existed.

If this "something" did not always exist, it means this "something" appeared out of nothing and set the creation of the universe in motion, I hope you agree with me when I say that is a pretty ridiculous idea.

This means that this first thing, this "something" that always existed, and was required for our universe, our array of life to start, had no beginning!
It was always there.
always

In our current lives/world/universe, nothing is infinite and nothing is
"always", which makes it even harder to understand that in order for anything to exist today, there must have been a first "thing" that started it all. And this first thing was not started/created by anything, it just was untill it started our universe and life.

I call this something God.

you have to understand that God is not limited by TIME, space or matter.
at least thats the God I believe in.

and if he is not limited by TIME he can be outside of TIME which means he does not have to have a beginning.

Actually, we're not getting anywhere.

"Where did God come from, who made God?"
This question is almost always answered with something along the lines of "He's always been!"

Nothing new there.

"Where did the singularity that lead to the Big Bang come from, who made that?"
This question is almost always answered by physicists with something along the lines of "It's always been. Time doesn't exist."

Nothing new there, either. We're not getting anywhere with tired old questions like this.

Zip

Year 0: The roman empire is tolerant to all religions,people are free to believe in whatever they want to.

Meanwhile,a boy called Jesus is born in Bethleem,his father is unknown.The Jews say he went mad because he was reading the torah too young.

He becomes a fanatic, and creates is own sect. He converts more and more people to his faith. They seek power and want to get rid of pagan beliefs in the roman empire. Jesus is finally killed, but his beliefs continue spreading through the empire.

50-100 A.D: Years after his death, greeks write the evangiles, that relate his life.
The christian sect continues developping.They are intolerant towards other religious groups,and clash with the roman justice,that slaughters them. The christian propaganda tells how poor martyrs were killed because they refused to abandon their faith,but this is false.

312 A.D: Emperor Constantine takes power and converts to christiannity
313 A.D: he signs the edict of milan,which officially recognises the christian church. It's protected by Constantine.

The christian church converts most of europe to christiannity, and plunges it into more than a 1000 years of ignorance and superstition.Ancient knowledge is forgotten,and all the power is given to the Church.

It is only during the 16th century that people start to give central importance to man,and not God. Since Humanism,religion has lost terrain, and we can notice that more science evolved, more religion lost power.

The spreading of the christian plague destroyed europe,and kept it that way for a thousand years and more,it caused millions of deaths.

Jesus is finally killed

you didnt mention that he came back from the dead.

Darkside, you forgot the miracles and witness reports of people seeing Jesus after he died.
Maybe you should add that to your little "my selfmade ignorant timeline" as it explains why this "cult" you talk about got so many followers.

Actually, there are no eyewitness reports of Jesus, either walking, being resurrected, on the cross, or anything like that. All that is written about Jesus is hearsay, literally.

So... As for the witnesses to the miracles... There are none. There is just a page, written several decades later, that claims that there were witnesses - much like you are doing right now.

EDIT: About cults --

Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k<
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Christianity matches definitions 1, 2, 3, and 5 of the word "cult." It is and was a cult. You are probably interpreting the word as having a negative connotation because it is usually associated with brainwashing and mindlessness.

Zip

[edit on 6/30/2005 by Zipdot]

you didnt mention that he came back from the dead.

Evidence please.

Darkside, you forgot the miracles and witness reports of people seeing Jesus after he died.

Some evidence would be cool.

Sorry,you won't find any.

well you tell me how exactly a star can form while defying boyles gas laws...
oh and tell me how all the stuff in the universe is not evenly dtributed since there was a big bang according to evolution.
just tell me why the moon wasnt places closer to begin with and we so happened to have our moon in the right spot.
just tell me how life didnt evolve while the sun was huge millions of years ago.
just tell me how the dinosaurs died.
just explain to me how all life has all left handed amino acids and the ones that scientist created in the lab were both left handed and right haned.
just tell me if we were really designed or if blood clotting evolved.

and after that explain to me a few more things. since us creationists are so dumb and dont know science. you know the only reason christian scientists get outcasted is because they make a discovery that totally proves evolution, or parts of it. to be false. like the guy on www.halos.com
he is a chrsitian. he was not a crack addict.
people made that up to make him look bad. everyone knows that is tell a lie long enough, loud enough and often enough. people will believe it. and thewy are more likely to believe a big lie than a small one. Hitler siad this, but not only did he say this. everyone agreed as if they had made it upu themselves.
hitler may not have believed in evolution, but he believed in natural selection. and since he thought that jews were pretty close to being ape along with black people. he had them killed because he thought he was speeding up the process of natural selection by getting rid of the inferior race.

expert999, face my arguments instead of dodging them. You can't face what we are trying to tell you,and you are doing this to all the people who tried to show you evidence of the scientific theories.

You refuse to see this evidence, and you are blinded by your faith in an inexistant God, supported by christian pseudo-scientists.

Originally posted by expert999
well you tell me how exactly a star can form while defying boyles gas laws...

origins.stsci.edu...

oh and tell me how all the stuff in the universe is not evenly dtributed since there was a big bang according to evolution.

Why should it be in the first place?

just tell me why the moon wasnt places closer to begin with and we so happened to have our moon in the right spot.

What makes you think it should be closer?

just tell me how life didnt evolve while the sun was huge millions of years ago.

stars are huge in the end of their existance,not in the beginning.When their fuel runs out, they become supernovas.

just tell me how the dinosaurs died.

It could of been a meteorite,or a supervolcano,something powerful enough to throw so much dust in the athmosphere that the sun was blocked and the plants died.This caused herbivores to die,and carnivores with them.

just explain to me how all life has all left handed amino acids and the ones that scientist created in the lab were both left handed and right haned.
just tell me if we were really designed or if blood clotting evolved.

I don't see what you mean by left and right handed acids...

you know the only reason christian scientists get outcasted is because they make a discovery that totally proves evolution, or parts of it. to be false. like the guy on www.halos.com

No they are outcasted because their discoveries are fakes or unfounded.

he is a chrsitian. he was not a crack addict.

Drugs blind scientists.So does christiannity.

people made that up to make him look bad.

No, they understood the ridicule in creationnist theories.

everyone knows that is tell a lie long enough, loud enough and often enough. people will believe it. and thewy are more likely to believe a big lie than a small one.

Yeah,Jesus was good at that kind of stuff.

hitler may not have believed in evolution, but he believed in natural selection. and since he thought that jews were pretty close to being ape along with black people. he had them killed because he thought he was speeding up the process of natural selection by getting rid of the inferior race.

And? are you insinuating that evolutionnists are nazi's?

Natural selection applies to all humans,there are no races.We all belong to the same species.

If you are a new-yorker,a member of an amazon tribe,an arab,a black,an asian,you belong to the same species,and all these people are equal.

Hitler believed that different people belonged to different races,and that some were superior. But genetics prove that there is no such thing as human races.

We all share the same genes...

Dark Side, you forgot to mention ways for dinosaurs to die. The meteor is the favorite since there is proof of it at the KT Barrier. But others are simple, not outer space baseballs crashing through the window known as earth.

Carnivore Explosion- Carnivores had so much prey they bred more and more, but then they over populated, ate so much prey, the prey died off, carnivores left with each other, and thus ate themselves to death. Highly Unlikely.

Herbivore Explosion- Herbivores breed alot more, and have more. But like a park where deer are protected, so many herbivores, not enough food. They die off, corpses everywhere, disease spreads, and with so many dead bodies, predators don't need to hunt, herbivores not kept under control by predators, they keep dieing due to lack of food and disease, eventually herbivores die, and thus predators die due to no prey, and thus they die off. More likely then first scenario, but again, EVIDENCE/PROOF points to a astroid smacking into the earth.

Or my favorite, the aliens came and hunted the dinosaurs to death. Like how we hunted the Dodo Bird to death, or the Passenger Pigeon to death.

Also, to the "expert" guy, if you don't read anything, how do you learn? Do you want uh, Nygdan to post a video for you?

This is why I was sticking to BTS, there it is fun and games, but here you get the smarties arguing with the ignoramuses, and all hell breaks loose when again the smarties make the ignoramuses look like well, ignoramuses. Thankfully I am still staying away from PTS. Have you seen the language that goes on in there? Or the stuff posted? One was where a GOP dude admitted on national radio he raped donkeys as a kid. That's something that should be in jokes, puns, and pranks, but it was real!

Spelling errors. Sorry Nygdan, called you Nygdin, and other words. But mainly didn't wanna call you Nygdin since your arguement was good and didn't wanna insult you.

[edit on 30-6-2005 by Jestaman]

Originally posted by Zipdot

Christianity matches definitions 1, 2, 3, and 5 of the word "cult." It is and was a cult. You are probably interpreting the word as having a negative connotation because it is usually associated with brainwashing and mindlessness.

Zip

[edit on 6/30/2005 by Zipdot]

Fortunately most people do know the difference between a cult and a religion. Calling every religion a cult only shows how subjective you are regarding this subject.

As for eye-witnesses regarding Jesus, take a look here:
www.jesusfactorfiction.com...

It's really sad to see some of you anti-religionists over here, acting as if christianity makes people dumb.

I wonder what context of experiences with christians they are basing it on, but I fear it's just stupidity mixed with prejudice.

Religion is not all the same, some religions have a rich history and can partly be proven historically, where other religions are clearly based on fantasy, legends and myth.
To treat all of them the same, and dispose religion because you think "believing the thunder is God is dumb" is even dumber than belieing that God is the thunder to begin with.

A while ago I read in newspapers that the big bang theory didn't make sense with the current allignment of stars and solar systems in the universe, and that new discoveries of fossiles show that meteorites did not kill dinosaurs at all, and that they now no longer know what did kill dinosaurs.

I am not seeing that kind of pretty actual findings in any of you antireligionists posts, and this makes me wonder just how "right" and up-to-date you all really are.
If you can't even keep up with your own "religion" why should I even begin to explain to you why I know for a fact God does exist?

[edit on 1-7-2005 by Jakko]

Originally posted by Jestaman
Carnivore Explosion- Carnivores had so much prey they bred more and more, but then they over populated, ate so much prey, the prey died off, carnivores left with each other, and thus ate themselves to death. Highly Unlikely.

Herbivore Explosion- Herbivores breed alot more, and have more. But like a park where deer are protected, so many herbivores, not enough food. They die off, corpses everywhere, disease spreads, and with so many dead bodies, predators don't need to hunt, herbivores not kept under control by predators, they keep dieing due to lack of food and disease, eventually herbivores die, and thus predators die due to no prey, and thus they die off. More likely then first scenario, but again, EVIDENCE/PROOF points to a astroid smacking into the earth.

Populations of carnivores/herbivores regulate each other in an ecosystem so i don't think that can happen.

Originally posted by expert999
well you tell me how exactly a star can form while defying boyles gas laws...
oh and tell me how all the stuff in the universe is not evenly dtributed since there was a big bang according to evolution.
just tell me why the moon wasnt places closer to begin with and we so happened to have our moon in the right spot.
just tell me how life didnt evolve while the sun was huge millions of years ago.
just tell me how the dinosaurs died.
just explain to me how all life has all left handed amino acids and the ones that scientist created in the lab were both left handed and right haned.
just tell me if we were really designed or if blood clotting evolved.

Alright.
1. Volume is inversely proportional to pressure. That's Boyle's law. I fail to see how simply a star forming is defying it. Please provide evidence suggesting otherwise.

2. According to evolution? Evolution does not state anything about the existence of the universe. But for fun, take this example. You draw a circle on a deflated balloon. That represents the singularity from where the Universe apparently came from, according to the Big Bang theory. When you inflate the balloon, the circle gets bigger as it's stretching across the surface of the balloon. On that note, why should things be evenly spread?

3. Au contraire - The moon is moving approximately three centimetres away from Earth each year. So obviously the moon was closer in the past. Define "right spot."

4. Worded rather erratically, but one million years is tripe compared to the age of celestial bodies such as the sun. The sun was practically the same size then as it is now.

5. Nobody knows for sure, but there are various theories regarding the subject. Have any ideas?

6. Explain, and provide sources please.

7. Blood clotting is simply blood blocking veins. I fail to see how evolution ties in with that.

i have read this thread from the start to the finish. to me the crux of all the problems seems to lie in the fact that expert seems to believe in the bible literally.

this i think is his biggest mistake. the bible is not one text. it is a compilation of several texts from several sources, borrowing from different cultures religions. infact i dont think anything stated in the old testament (that is where the creation myth stems from) is original. it has all been said before by different texts. therefore either all the other texts are also "the word of God" or even the bible is not.

for example, the flood legend is first recorded in the vedas. yes in the vedas. thousands of years before christianity even cam into existance. infact the vedas are the oldest documents with religious conotations to them.

also another point jesus, has uncanny similarity to Krishna in the hindu religion (if there is such a thing) krishna was born of a virgin. on the 25th of december. had powers and abilities that were later attributed to Christ, which itself is a mutation of the sanskrit word 'Krist' meaning, "one with their third eye open" or "enlightened one" in simplistic terms.

now taking this argument further, if the vedas are correct, and they have to be for the bible to be (as u claim it is) then the vedas also claim that the universe is billions of years old!!! and not the 6000 propogated by christianity. the vedas say that universe will collapse at some time in the future and return to a single point (singularity) which will then create a new universe (big bang) and this cycle has been and will be repeated over and over again, creatin new universes each time.

food for thought isnt it
think abt it!

I don't have time to catch up this debate right now. But I will, later. Here are a few thought on your replies.

I notice that instead of tackling the question of "something must have always existed" which is what I SAID not you! ou state it like your making a point to support a case of creationism, which it does not. You continue to use the anti-logic theory of "well it's magic isn't it!" (paraphrase).

God is not bound by time you claim, translation god is not bound by logic. That mean that your belief does not require logic because it's magic!

Like I stated before in another post you didn't bother to read, I have a deep spiritual beief and think the question should never have been "is there a god, but WHAT is god?".

It is not the existence of a so called god that I have a problem with, it is an illogical and blind belief in one without proof.

I have a belief in something that I think is called god by those that understand it. I however find the word "god" repugnent as it is used by people to mean something entirely different. And that is where I have issue with "creationism", you don't base that belief an any real logic other than "well it's magic isn't it?". It's not even a theory, christians invented the so called theory of "intelligent design" as a way to explain an already held dogmatic belief, that is not science.

Science works the other way around, you come up with a theory because it may or may not be true, and then you attempt to disprove it. If you can't disprove it then you accept it might be true. See the difference?

Let's have a look at E=mc2 for a second as I'm sure you have little understanding of it. Let me break it down for you so you can understand it's implications.

E = Energy

m = matter

c = Velocity of light

2 = Squared

Therfore energy is equal to matter divided by the velocity of light.

Therfore matter is energy condensed to a slow vibration.

Therfore everthing that exists is made of the same substance, energy.

So if everything is energy, then what the hell is energy?

OK here is where I'm going to get heavy.


Here is a definition of god that I accept -

An omnipresent being that is responsible for the whole of existence.

Well E=mc2 suggest that energy is omnipresent and responsible for the whole of existence. Is that not god? Did it not ALWAYS exist? Does it not cover an explanation that allows a verison of both creationism and evolution?

BUT it does not allow a version of creationism that has a deity creating things on a cloud in 6 days and then raing fire on them later in anger etc etc. The god in the christian faith is childish and anti-intellectual and creationism is ingnorance because it makes no attempt to truely explain itself without throwing magic in there, sceince uses logic and unlike christianity it has no problem proving itself wrong from time to time. it encourages debate not denouncing people as heretics.

Stop and really think about these things instead of going into defense mode, your sacreds cows are false idols. There is a source of pure light and compassion inside YOU. Look for the truth yourslef and not through the Nth generation dogma.


[edit on 1-7-2005 by parabolee]

Ah look, now we're finally getting somewhere.
In this question lies the very ignorance of claiming creationism is in any way less "intellectual" than denying creationism.
For anything to exist today, there must have been "something" that always existed.

If this "something" did not always exist, it means this "something" appeared out of nothing and set the creation of the universe in motion, I hope you agree with me when I say that is a pretty ridiculous idea.

LOL I do agree it is a ridiculous idea, that is why I brought it up!!!

But taking that as proof of creationism is foolish. There was never a begining of time and oh yeah I pointed that out not you .

When I stated Eienstein believed that you attacked him, it was you that said people who don't believe in creationism MUST believe in the big bang being the beginning etc. I made whole post why this was wrong and then you try and you use points that prove you wrong to prove me wrong

Sorry but your whole 6 day creation thing is a childrens book, a fairy tale, a dogmatic faith that defies logic.

Do you know Einstein believed in god (a definition of anyway)? Just not yours. You missunderstand religious faith, you think anyone that disagree's with your faith must be atheist, never heard of an agnostic? or a secular faith?

I'm a secular humanist that learns from all faiths, I believe that science proves the existence of god but not the god of any organised religion. And I believe that evolution is a solid way of explaining reality within time/space, trying to explain it outside of time/space is existentialism and metaphysics and way above the heads of people in school and even most adults. Human language still has huge barriers in even talking about those subjects. A student of semantics knows this (I have studied this a little).

As soon as you let someone else tell you what "god" is, you have ceased to think, your mind is metophorically dead. Least of all a book that is full of censored third hand accounts of something that was a dogmatic belief of people with less knowledge and intelligence than modern man. Have faith in your own race, mankind has the ability to improve and evolve our understanding of existence and the soul. We just have to continue to question what we know and let go of thousands of years old religious myths.



[edit on 1-7-2005 by parabolee]