Can we finally settle this Chemtrail thing?

Originally posted by ANOK
For example that second pic posted above is just a fuel dump...
[edit on 25/6/2005 by ANOK]

Actually I am pretty sure its not, those are vertices coming off where the separation of the ailerons and the flaps are. Fuel vents are more in the center and more toward the tip of the wing. I have seen this in Florida when the humidity is higher, you should also note the mist around the wing is most likely condensation that is coming off the wing since the landing gear have been extended for landing causing more vibration on the wing (that rumbling you feel just before the plane lands). Also this appears to be a United Airlines plane (paint scheme is close) and again I will say it here and you can check my other posts on the subject, there are no commercial aircraft that are doing any kind of spraying of anything…



Edit to add:

As a side note I have personally seen this happen at low altitude on planes I have worked on and can confirm that there was no spraying going on with. I have seen planes in the right conditions, usually when it is humid or raining; leave a ribbon right off the tip of the wing, all the way to the ground and down the runway, which has stayed in the air for short amount of time. It’s actually very pretty and makes for a great photograph, but nothing sinister.


[edit on 6/25/2005 by defcon5]

OK not a fuel dump but the point was I know it wasn't a chemtrail, they just don't look the same.

As far as seeing the contrail from wing tips lasting for awhile I've seen it too.
I was a jet mech for 6 yrs in the Navy.
But I have never seen an aerodynamic contrail that had a life of it's own beyond a few feet behind the A/C.
Chemtrails last for hours and spread out like clouds, I have seen it. Show me a contrail doing that, and not a picture. You can't determin how long the trail is lasting in a picture.

If you saw chemtrail spraying in process you would know. Trouble is most ppl glance at the sky see a trail or two and just dismiss it as a normal contrail.
Most people don't have time to sit and watch planes flying around for hours to see if there is a pattern to their madness. But if you did believe me you might be surprised at what you see.

[edit on 25/6/2005 by ANOK]

But I have seen trails north of TIA in the approach pattern that have stayed for hours and spread out like that, and I know for a fact that they are from Commercial flights into Tampa. I similarly know for a fact that there is nothing like this going on at TIA…

The reason that they have a pattern to them is that flights come in what we call banks. In other words there might be no flights on the ground for hours then all at once 30 hit; that is done so people can make connecting flights out. So one minute the air might be clean and the next it is filled with trails. Those trails have a pattern (grids, X’s) which follows the approach and routing pattern into TIA.

Most people don't have time to sit and watch planes flying around for hours to see if there is a pattern to their madness. But if you did believe me you might be surprised at what you see.

Actually most people dont obsess over rediculous claims. If youre sitting there straining your neck to stare at planes for hours on end, yeah Ill put money on you being enough of a whack to conjure up all sorts of nonsense.

Yeah apc and most people don't obsess over trying to debunk something either, you post in these chem threads more than I do!
Does it make you feel better putting other people down? Cause that's all you seem to do.

[edit on 25/6/2005 by ANOK]

Originally posted by ANOK
Does it make you feel better putting other people down? Cause that's all you seem to do.

[edit on 25/6/2005 by ANOK]

Feel better? Not really... it's just loads of fun. Some people watch TV when theyre bored... I dont own a TV so I just tear stupid people apart. Plenty of enjoyment to be had!

I don't post as much as I'd like on the chemtrail threads....Im really not an expert on disproving thier existance, unlike Howard and Off_The_Street who have done a very good job at disproving chemtrails

Notice I said Chemtrails...not contrails

But....no matter how much evidence, how much correct data and common sense is thrown at the chemmies....they will still believe. And keep coming back with the same arguements and the same "evidence" and the same damn edited photos.



[edit on 25/6/2005 by SportyMB]

ANOK, in over a year of reading your posts, I have heard you say, time and again, that you can tell "chem-trails" from contrails because "chem-trails" persist and contrails don't.

You also say you worked on aircraft in the Navy, which means -- I assume -- that you were an Aviation Machinist's Mate, and probably made E-5 before getting out.

Are you telling me that, in your six years of work and study, you never once heard of Boyle's Law or the mechanism of sublimation?

As I and just about everyone else who has some background in aviation has mentioned, water vapor flashes to ice crystals when it's really cold, and, if the temperature is below minus forty degrees and the relative humidity is 100% or higher, the ice crystals will not sublime.

If the temperature is higher than minus forty degrees or if the humidity is not saturated with respect to temperture, then the ice crystals will sublime.

ANOK, why is that so hard for you to understand?

It's not like you need a Ph.D. in atmospheric physics to understand that, any more than you need any speciel degree to undertand the basic mechanism of temperature and relative humidity, and their interaction.

I cannot believe that someone with your background doesn't know this!

You can read this in any book available in your library. I have Mark's Handbook for Mechanical Engineers, 9th Edition, and it's in there.

There's an excellent papter that explains all of this; it's "The Effects of Aircraft Wake Dynamics on Contrail Development" by D.C and WS Lewellen (Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering, West Virginia University), published in the Journal of Atmospheric Sciences, which is right on the net at eiger.mae.wvu.edu... .

You can read all about it in www.infoplease.com... ; or, if you want to actually get a hard-copy book, you can find several good texts on atmospheric science and meteorology at any library, including suchbooks as General Meteorology by Byers, Handbook of Weather, Climate, and Oceans, by Potter and Coleman, and (although this may be a bit technical) Nucleation and Atmospheric Aerosols, 1996
by Kulmala and Wagner.

Any of these textbooks, and probably dozens more that I'm not even aware of, discuss exactly how and why some contrails stick around and some don't.

And it doesn't have anything to do with some Secret Plot; it has to do with temperature and humidity.

ANOK, the information is there. Why are you afraid to ackhowledge it?

Originally posted by apc
so I just tear stupid people apart.

Or in your little closed minded, it's not happening because I say so world, you think you are tearing stupid people apart.
All you're really doing is showing how well social conditioning works.

There is no way you can know for 100% chemtrails don't exist, so how about keeping an open mind until such time, eh?

Another person who back in the day would have burned me at the stake for claiming the world is a sphere and not flat.

the answer to the original question is that no this chemtrail issue will never be settled, because something is there that wasn't before, that has real toxic impact and that can be changed by the actions, intercession and intent of people on the ground
Add to this the association of the orb phenomenon and the sylphs, and you're cooking up a whole new way of evaluating the chemtrails and their meanings, as well as what our interpretation of so-called reality consists of
Yes, the malicious entities are there
What's the program?
It's the DNA, stupid!

[edit on 25-6-2005 by dh]

Look OFT I'm not gonna go around in circles with you again...

I know how contrails are formed, that's why I know what I saw was not normal contrails.

Constantly reminding me of the science behind contrails will do nothing to change my mind.

Something is going on...Where there's smoke you'll usualy find fire.

And what has my military rank got to do with anything? If I was an E-8 would it make a difference? (you don't need to answer that btw)

(BTW it always appears your posts aren't really designed to change my mind but to just make me look ignorant in the eyes of other people who read these threads, hmmmm??).

ANOK says:

I know how contrails are formed, that's why I know what I saw was not normal contrails.

I don't think you do; otherwise, you wouldn't keep ducking the questions, or claiming that there's some Magic Juju in the aircraft exhaust which causes the ice crystals to not sublimate.

Constantly reminding me of the science behind contrails will do nothing to change my mind.

What is it about science that bothers you? And why should anyone have to "constantly remind" you about facts and reason? I mean, it's not like you never heard of them!

And what has my military rank got to do with anything? If I was an E-8 would it make a difference? (you don't need to answer that btw)

You're right, it wouldn't; I think anyone who worked as an Aviation Machinist's Mate, even as an E-3 striker, should know about basic meteorology. That's why I don't understand your refusal to accept basic science.

(BTW it always appears your posts aren't really designed to change my mind but to just make me look ignorant in the eyes of other people who read these threads, hmmmm??).

We can't make other people look ignorant, ANOK; the only person who can do that to us is us oursdelves.

But you still haven't answered my question. Are you saying that subimation of ice crystals is not a function of temperature and humidity? If not, what is it about these "chem-trails" that, in your opinion, causes the contrails to persist?

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
But you still haven't answered my question. Are you saying that subimation of ice crystals is not a function of temperature and humidity? If not, what is it about these "chem-trails" that, in your opinion, causes the contrails to persist?

It puzzles me that the humidity-dependent chemtrails are always best seen and photographed in the driest atmospheric conditions
off-the-street's rampant sun-symbolist avatar also interests me
Are you trying to present us with something?

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
I don't think you do; otherwise, you wouldn't keep ducking the questions, or claiming that there's some Magic Juju in the aircraft exhaust which causes the ice crystals to not sublimate.

There's no majic juju in aircraft exhaust, and chemtrails are not ice crystals.
You are always stating claims I have not made.

What is it about science that bothers you? And why should anyone have to "constantly remind" you about facts and reason? I mean, it's not like you never heard of them!

Nothing about science bothers me, you're missing my point.

You're right, it wouldn't; I think anyone who worked as an Aviation Machinist's Mate, even as an E-3 striker, should know about basic meteorology. That's why I don't understand your refusal to accept basic science.

No, meteorolgy was not part of my training. But I am not refusing to accept basic science.

We can't make other people look ignorant, ANOK; the only person who can do that to us is us oursdelves (sic).

No comment.

But you still haven't answered my question. Are you saying that subimation of ice crystals is not a function of temperature and humidity? If not, what is it about these "chem-trails" that, in your opinion, causes the contrails to persist?

I'm not saying contrails don't persist. They do, but as we both know, very rarely. Persistant con/chemtrails have suddenly increased in the last few years.
I don't know what you mean by chemtrails causing contrails to persist, two different things.

Originally posted by ANOK
Or in your little closed minded, it's not happening because I say so world, you think you are tearing stupid people apart.
All you're really doing is showing how well social conditioning works.

There is no way you can know for 100% chemtrails don't exist, so how about keeping an open mind until such time, eh?

I don't believe I have once stated, in black and white, that "they don't exist."
I do however believe I have repeatedly stated I am open to the possibility of such a weather modification program existing, however there is absolutely ZERO evidence in any shape size or form to support such an idea. Extrapolation based on limited data is NOT evidence.
The last thing I would do is make the massively ignorant mistake of making claims I clearly have no way to support or justify.
These chemmies read things how they want to read them, and see things how they want to see them, as you have just exemplified, ANOK.

>

Originally posted by dh
It puzzles me that the humidity-dependent chemtrails are always best seen and photographed in the driest atmospheric conditions

Once again, reading things how you want to read them. Have you completely forgotten that little factoid about upper atmospheric conditions being virtually independant from the surface? The surface could be at 0% RH (wow wouldn't that be an entertaining sight...) and 30,000ft could still be supersaturated.


[edit on 26-6-2005 by apc]

dh says:

It puzzles me that the humidity-dependent chemtrails are always best seen and photographed in the driest atmospheric conditions

You puzzle easily, confusing clear skies as seen from the ground as "driest atmospheric conditions". Although our colleague apc has already addressed your comment, I shall add my two cents' worth.

I can (and do) stand in my back yard at an elevation of1400 MSL in the Sonoran Desert with an ambient temperature of 108 deg F and a RH of 6% (per the weather report on the local radio) and see contrails -- because those contrails are a mile higher than Mt. Everest.

You see, dh, as the elevation increases the temperature drops; this is why you can see snow at Rocky Mountain National Park in July.

And as the temperature drops, the absolute amount of water required for saturation decreases dramatically, just like the amount of a solute like sugar to saturate a solvent like tap water decreases when the solvent is colder. I have explained this phenomenon of fifth grade science on many occasions; I recommend that you read previous posts on the subject or go to science.howstuffworks.com... for a simplified explanation, including a key difference that few if any "chem-trailers" seem to understand: absolute humidity versus relative humidity.

off-the-street's rampant sun-symbolist avatar also interests me

That's nice. It's always good for a person to be interested. However, we're talking about the "chem-trail" hoax. Why are you changing the subject?

Are you trying to present us with something?

*Sigh* Of you must know, dh, my avatar is neither "rampant" nor "sun-symbolist" (whatever that means). It is a picture I took of an Ikon of an unknown (to me, anyway) saint at a Greek Orthodox monastery. If you want to see a larger copy of the picture, you may view it, along with others like it, at members7.clubphoto.com...

By the way, do you notice a change in the avatar? This is a new one (although from the same photo album); if you read carefully, you will notice that he has penned a special message just for ANOK and you!

[edit on 26-6-2005 by Off_The_Street]

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
if you read carefully, you will notice that he has penned a special message just for ANOK and you!

[edit on 26-6-2005 by Off_The_Street]

Mien Got! This conspiricy goes deeper than I ever imagined. Now the crafty Greeks are in on it too.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street

off-the-street's rampant sun-symbolist avatar also interests me

That's nice. It's always good for a person to be interested. However, we're talking about the "chem-trail" hoax. Why are you changing the subject?

Are you trying to present us with something?

*Sigh* Of you must know, dh, my avatar is neither "rampant" nor "sun-symbolist" (whatever that means). It is a picture I took of an Ikon of an unknown (to me, anyway) saint at a Greek Orthodox monastery. If you want to see a larger copy of the picture, you may view it, along with others like it, at members7.clubphoto.com...

By the way, do you notice a change in the avatar? This is a new one (although from the same photo album); if you read carefully, you will notice that he has penned a special message just for ANOK and you!

[edit on 26-6-2005 by Off_The_Street]

Yes very interesting that you change it just when it's mentioned
Well done - very convincing. I wouldn't expect a leopard to change its spots
Is that the sort of response you're seeking?

[edit on 26-6-2005 by dh]

What are we gong to do?

I told you that dh would recognize that I changed the avatar to attempt to hid the truth about the Secret Sun-Man. You said it wouldn't be noticed, but now it is! dh has seen and suspects!

Well, I'm not taking responsibility for letting the cat out of the bag this time, Luke Duke! You and Howard Roark and apc were the ones who were supposed to "take care of" dh when the Secret came out, but, nooooo! You had to try to convince me that changing the Avatar would solve the problems.

Well you three bozos can go ahead and explain it to "Chem-trail" Central. I'm going straight back to CIA at Langley. By Ghod, they appreciated me back there!!

[edit on 26-6-2005 by Off_The_Street]

Shhhhh. Absorbtion time hasn't been reached yet! This new stuff ain't fast acting for a reason you know!