Question "Is any of this stuff made in Israel?" Answer Fine of 6000 $

Originally posted by groingrinder
My question is what do we care that Arabs are boycotting Israel??

Who cares?? Did not we boycott South Africa because we did not like their internal policies?

[Edited on 8-12-2003 by groingrinder]

Yeah.. to end APARTHEID was to end last STABLE AFRICAN NATION.. now there can be same mayhem that in all other african countries.. Ruanda, Kongo, list is endless..

Originally posted by CoLD aNGeRif you don�t believe ask bob88, he actually gets sick of people posting a whole article while that article already exists in the net,

In reality, we don't like what you did either, post much of an article with no comment. Your actions are forcing us to consider that what you have done on the forums should be disallowed.

In the future, post the first paragraph, the link, and your opinion, twist, take, rant on the subject of the news article.

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi

Originally posted by Mycroft

I asked you to tell me the difference between anti-semitism and anti-zionism. Instead you show me a picture?!

Let me rephrase the question:

What is a zionist and why is it bad?

You are dodging the question, so i am answering it for you : These people are being taught to hate muslims. That is not a universalist approach to humanity. The only excuse for that is to breed a generation of emotionally handicapped haters to defend Israel and molest palestinians. But then what have these people who call themselves jews become ? Certainly not an example for others to follow. Hence not jews.

After 55 years of conflict there is a lot of tension and anger. Pictures like these are easy to come by. It's very hard to take a universalist approach to humanity in those circumstances. I didn't mean to seem to be dodging your question, I just failed to see anything of substance worth responding to.

But speaking of dodging questions....Will you answer mine? What is a zionist and why is it bad?

Cool.
I just got a warning for posting in this thread.

A bit bloody late though isn't it?

Originally posted by infinite
The difference between judaism and zionism

Hope that helps

Thanks for the assist, but I was really hoping for Mokuhdzushi's thoughts on the subject.

I checked out the link. It didn't give a definition of zionism, it gave one Rabbi's opinion of why zionism was wrong. He belongs to the Neturei Karta, which is a small sect of judaism. Talking to them is like talking to the Quakers, it may be interesting, but their views don't represent the larger group.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Zionism is based on the Talmud, which is a book that makes Mein Kampf look like kids lit. It was written later, and goes beyond arrogance, even putting the Jew at the same level as god. Many kews in recent times have been turning from it, finding its passages hateful and offensive, yet many jews still hold its words dear to thier heart, thus, Zionist Jews.

That tells me you've never read it, but you have been reading some nasty propaganda.

The Torah is the Jewish holy book. Christians would recognize it as the first five books of the Old Testament. The Torah defines the Jewish religion.

The Talmud is commentary on the Torah. It's a collection of the writings of famous Rabbis from history and how they interpreted various passages of the Torah. On any given subject, the Talmud will have a variety of opinions, many of which may contradict each other.

The purpose of the Talmud is to help the reader come to his own understanding of Torah. It doesn't tell him what to think, but to give him a variety of viewpoints to help him think for himself, to form his own opinions.

There is an old joke that where there are two jews discussing a subject you will find three opinions. There is truth to that joke, it's built into the culture through the religion.

Leveller, i think nobody turned you in, it must have been a stray moderator wandering through this thread (if it was really this one) trying to enforce the "no insults and assimilated behaviours" policy. This reminds me of the song "Mustafa mustafa don't worry mustafa" do you know it ?


Mycroft, two things, first a comment to your response. Nothing (i must add: not even the delusion that all members of a certain race are evil) warrants this type of behaviour. Israel is openly, publicly, and politically gearing up towards generalized hatred of and genocidal policies towards the palestinians. That is despicable racism and lawlessness.

Zionists are originally the followers of a certain german (I forgot his name), and believe in the return of the Jewish people to their homeland, the assumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, and advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. That's the shiny side. What has it become since their objective was achieved ? With the ensuing lack of spiritual guidance, it has become a colorful mixture of murdering nationalism, racism, militarism, disdain for the diaspora, warmongering, disdain for human rights of arabs, even though Israel was armed to the teeth by the west, was given nuclear weapons to deterr invasion and all kind of first class- treatment by America and Europe.




[Edited on 13-8-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
What has it become today ? a colorful mixture of murdering nationalism, racism, militarism, disdain for the diaspora, warmongering, disdain for human rights of arabs, even though Israel was armed to the teeth by the west, was given nuclear weapons to deterr invasion and all kind of first class- treatment by America and Europe.

Apart from the nukes, it sounds just like the Arab countries too, don't it?

Never too late Leveller.

To all.Please keep this Thread on Topic.

Good point Leveller. There is still a number of differences : The arabs actually have to buy their weapons and dont receive astronomical amounts of foreign aid. The arabs countries weren't given (how did that happen anyways?) the bomb and key american technologies. The situation is quite dyssimetrical, especially between palestinians and israelis. I don't want to criticize that first-class treatment, don't get me wrong, i wish everyone the best he can get. But shouldnt it be the duty of people so cherished by the western world to adopt the centerpiece of western thought, universalism ?




[Edited on 13-8-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

The Talmud, just a guide book? A sick guide book. Pasages like:

Even the best of the Goyim should be killed

A gentile girl of three years of age can be violated.

When the Messiah comes, each jew will have 2200 Gentile slaves

The issue of gentiles is like that of horses.

A Jew may kill a Gentile, but if gentile kills a Jew, then that Gentile must be out to death.

Striking a Jew is like striking God.

Want more?
Spiritualism or Racial manifesto?

Note, the lady who runs the website pretty much exposes ALL religions. She has jewish friends, reform jewish friends, who assisted her in this project.

The Torah is SUPPOSED to be the holy book, but is not for many jews, Much like the different spins on the bible, from the Catholics versions to the book of Mormon. Many Jews follow the Talmud, several do not as well. Some believe only the Torah is holy, and the Talmud is wrong, an abomination and perversion of Jewish beliefs.

Thus, internal disputesm within a religion. Nothing new.

Tha Talmud, if its a spiritual guide book, is little different from Mein kampf or other sick crap. Insert the worlds Aryan where you find Jew, and subhuman or non Aryan where you see gentile, and Id swear Himmler himself wrote the damn thing!

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
Mycroft, two things, first a comment to your response. Nothing (i must add: not even the delusion that all members of a certain race are evil) warrants this type of behaviour. Israel is openly, publicly, and politically gearing up towards generalized hatred of and genocidal policies towards the palestinians. That is despicable racism and lawlessness.

I disagree.

Israel is and always has been acting in its own self defense. As a nation, that is their right.

To characterize their actions as genocidal, one would have to assume they planned to kill all Arabs. Given the numbers involved, this is absurd.

Even if one were to limit the term genocide to Palestinian-Arabs, the population of these people has increased five fold in the past 50 years, most of that under the administration of Israel.

Is there racism involved in this conflict? After more than 55 years, it would be silly to think there wasn't, but to suggest that the racism only comes from Israel is silly.

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
Zionists are originally the followers of a certain german (I forgot his name), and believe in the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the assumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. That's the shiny side.

Okay, so once upon a time Zionism was the desire to return to the Holy Land and establish sovereignty in the Land of Israel.

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
What has it become since their objective was achieved ? With the ensuing lack of spiritual guidance, it has become a colorful mixture of murdering nationalism, racism, militarism, disdain for the diaspora, warmongering, disdain for human rights of arabs, even though Israel was armed to the teeth by the west, was given nuclear weapons to deterr invasion and all kind of first class- treatment by America and Europe.

Wow.

Well, we�ve established that your opinion of Zionism is bad, but that�s not really a working definition.

Would you think it�s fair to say that after the creation of the State of Israel, that Zionism is the desire to maintain sovereignty in Israel?

This topic is about a fine that was imposed on an American company for answering a question about a products origin.
One can ask whether those strict rules were applied equally to those that asked if a product was French or German during the recent contratemps.

It would be a shame if this topic mirrored many others on this board.
I see no reference to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict nor the indiosyncrocies of Judaism.

Saying the israelis act in self defense is like saying the nazis did. The Zionist jews in America declared war on Germany years before Poland was invaded. Thus, declaring war, and by the same logic, the Nazis were justified in what they did to the Jews too!

Were justified for Inaving Iraq, too! After all, sooner or later, by the same logic, Saddam was gonna attack us! More terrorists and stuff! And 9/11? lets attack any country that has terrorists that can come over here.

Israels actions are those of a provacateur, not a defender.

This thread has everything to do with the issue at hand. it shows blatant US Bias towards Israel, while it basically shrugs off others. Boycotting the French and Germans is ok. Boycotting the Israelis is wrong somehow?

Originally posted by Mycroft
Would you think it�s fair to say that after the creation of the State of Israel, that Zionism is the desire to maintain sovereignty in Israel?

To a certain point, yes. But given the fundamentally racist beliefs of the israeli far-right, this sadly also implies maintining jewish superiority in Israel, hence race-based discrimination and ultimately deportation of palestinians. And you can't justify that.

[Edited on 13-8-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Want more?
Spiritualism or Racial manifesto?

Note, the lady who runs the website pretty much exposes ALL religions. She has jewish friends, reform jewish friends, who assisted her in this project.

So you get your information on the Talmud from a website that's against ALL religion?

Having a bias that's so big that it covers everything isn't the same as being unbiased.

john bull 1,

you're right we should stay on subject. But i feel this thread has the enormous quality that it is possible to discuss things with people who seem to be pro-Sharon yet refrain from insulting everyone constantly.. that's a novelty , and you can be proud it happens in your forum



[Edited on 13-8-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

Originally posted by John Bull 1
This topic is about a fine that was imposed on an American company for answering a question about a products origin.

If that were all this topic was about, I would have ignored it. Let�s be honest, the real purpose of this thread was to give Cold Anger another forum to spread anti-Israel propaganda.

I understand and accept that a public forum geared towards conspiracy will attract a lot of anti-Semitic traffic, but I also believe that to allow it to be spread without comment is the same as endorsing it. I personally can�t do that.

Originally posted by John bull 1One can ask whether those strict rules were applied equally to those that asked if a product was French or German during the recent contratemps.

One could ask�but since that�s not the real topic it would be a waste of time.

Originally posted by John Bull 1
It would be a shame if this topic mirrored many others on this board.
I see no reference to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict nor the indiosyncrocies of Judaism.

Then you havn�t been paying attention.

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi

To a certain point, yes. But given the fundamentally racist beliefs of the israeli far-right, this sadly also implies maintining jewish superiority in Israel, hence race-based discrimination and ultimately deportation of palestinians. And you can't justify that.

[Edited on 13-8-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

So if it were not for these things would you find Zionism acceptable?

I would find Zionism acceptable if it wasnt a major power and driving force behind US politics, or for that matter, anyones politics.

I could care less if a couple of nutty Jews wanna think god likes me better then everyone else, and everyone else should lick thier boot. So long as they lack the power and resources to enact these beliefs on people who dont want them, well, lol, I could care less. Same thing with christians, commies, Nazis, hippies, socialists, satanists, Buddists, vegetarians, i dont give a rats ass what ideal you subscribe to. So long as your group does NOT have the power to enforce or further its agendas at the expense of the rest of the world, i could care less what kook belief or ideal you hold dear to your heart.

If Zionism wasnt such a disease in our govornment and our society, then personally, I wouldnt waste a breath on it. The fact that it wields so much power and influence over the rest of the world ois where the problem lies.