Scientology a Cult?

He's not online, but I have sent a u2u and asked if he wouldn't mind sharing his thoughts with us on the subject. Whether he chooses to is up to him.

But I know that he would be an excellent contributor to this thread, and I hope he joins in. (I know you're reading this )

Originally posted by accountability
Whether or not the leaders target the rich, they both seem to attract rich members.
US-evangelicals making over $40,000 make up the majority of members in a recent church membership survey

$40k hardly qualifies as rich... ever tried to raise a family on that little bit of money ?

Originally posted by Duzey
But I know that he would be an excellent contributor to this thread, and I hope he joins in. (I know you're reading this

)

If he is willing to share what he knows about Scientology, and what he experienced, it will give everyone a more complete picture of the church.

So far in this thread, I'm the only one that has even walked inside a Scientology Church.
(correct me if I'm wrong)

Originally posted by anxietydisorder
Don't expect a Scientologist to roll over like a subordinate dingo, that's not going to happen. Your likely going to get an alpha response.

I can certainly back you up on that statement. There is extensive training on how to deal with negative situations and people, and Scientologists have no problem standing up for themselves.

Scientologists have communication skills to be envied.

Originally posted by stumason

EDIT: the 2001 census in the UK proves my point. If more than 50,000 people (or something) claimed to be a Jedi, the Government would be forced to conceed it as an official religion. I put Jedi

[edit on 17/6/05 by stumason]

Well, that's not true as much you might like to be:

People Putting Jedi in UK Census

Originally posted by anxietydisorder
So far in this thread, I'm the only one that has even walked inside a Scientology Church.
(correct me if I'm wrong)

I have been inside a storefront once, but have never taken courses or tests. So you would be correct. I just enjoy studying religions.

And I will admit that at first, I was a bit of a 'negative nelly' about the whole thing. But after learning more about it, I don't think there is anything wrong with Scientology.

At this point, though, I would just like to add that I do think that the current executives have harmed the church in the view of the public, through their judicious use of lawsuits. In my opinion, the Church has created this little Public Relations nightmare themselves.

If they want to release the higher levels, it will have to be turned around. And if they can't get the numbers, then they have harmed every single Scientologist.

Duzeys official opinion: Scientology=OK, Policies of the current top executive management of the Church=Bad

I think the freezone is a better option for the curious.



[edit on 20-6-2005 by Duzey]

Originally posted by anxietydisorder

It would be nice to have someone back me up on this......
In all of ATS we must have some other member that has been in Scientology.

And as far as Tom Cruise is concerned:
He confronted that feux reporter in a way that was classic Scientology. He pointed out how the reporter was wrong, and never got angry or violent.
[edit on 20-6-2005 by anxietydisorder]

I agree with you, anx, and let me tell you you have been one of the most positive posters on this thread. I appreciate your information and first-hand knowledge and experience.

I agree with you on the Tom Cruise incident. He was extremely polite, centered, and at the same time determined. While I jest at the use of the word 'Jerk' repeatedly (somehow I just thought Tom Cruise was a little more eloquent, but hey, movies have that way of inflating the actor on the stage), I truly feel he was very composed and polite in the whole incident...

However (of course you knew it was coming, lol), I have heard that the interviewers were a part of a British comedy-esque troop that does this sort of thing fairly routinely to throw 'Egg in the Face' of somebody famous. If Asthon Kutcher ran out right afterwards and shouted "You've just been PUNK'D!" I think that Tom may not have been so adament, or serious, in his convictions, and might have refrained from repeating the word 'Jerk' 5-7 times (lol).

But seriously, Anx, you have taught me more about scientology throughout this post than anyone else. I am very much appreciative. In fact, I have decided to order Hubbard's original book to learn more. Are there any other Scientology related texts that you might recommend to me to further my research and understanding?

If I find a friends setting somewhere on this post, I will most certainly add you as an open-minded, truth-seeking individual. And as soon as I'm done here, I'm going to vote you for the Way Above award.

Do you have any more information about the 'techs' or any good links to more information on them? They seem to not be thoroughly defined in the sites I have located (again, mostly anti-scientology sites sponsored by the Christian right wing...) and I am truly interested in your experimentation with various eastern religious ideas. I have long been interested in the eastern ideas and beliefs, and find them absolutely fascinating, if solely for their differences with that of western beliefs and ideals.

Again, Thank You for your candid points and opinions. I applaude your efforts to remain true to the topic at hand. Kudos!

I'll try to answer point by point, but I warn you, the scotch has been flowing rather freely around here tonight and my spelling etc... will need to be forgiven.

Originally posted by SimonColynAdrian

I agree with you, anx, and let me tell you you have been one of the most positive posters on this thread. I appreciate your information and first-hand knowledge and experience.

I agree with you on the Tom Cruise incident. He was extremely polite, centered, and at the same time determined. While I jest at the use of the word 'Jerk' repeatedly (somehow I just thought Tom Cruise was a little more eloquent, but hey, movies have that way of inflating the actor on the stage), I truly feel he was very composed and polite in the whole incident...

anxietydisorder: This guy got all dressed up, makeup, hair and clothes. He was giving interviews to the mob of reporters and got sprayed in the face and had no idea what it was at first. He handled the situation well and in a way befitting a Scientologist. (not sure where the "jerk" line came from, but it sure isn't a common thing you would hear around the church.
And hey! He is human. There is going to be a reaction.........

However (of course you knew it was coming, lol), I have heard that the interviewers were a part of a British comedy-esque troop that does this sort of thing fairly routinely to throw 'Egg in the Face' of somebody famous. If Asthon Kutcher ran out right afterwards and shouted "You've just been PUNK'D!" I think that Tom may not have been so adament, or serious, in his convictions, and might have refrained from repeating the word 'Jerk' 5-7 times (lol).

anxietydisorder: Your so right. You always need to assess the situation at hand and I feel like he was at at a loss for words

But seriously, Anx, you have taught me more about scientology throughout this post than anyone else. I am very much appreciative. In fact, I have decided to order Hubbard's original book to learn more. Are there any other Scientology related texts that you might recommend to me to further my research and understanding?

anxietydisorder: I don't want to come off as a Scientology recruiter but I think that if you want to actually learn about a religion you need to dive in, or at least get your feet wet, and Dianetics is a good place to start.

If I find a friends setting somewhere on this post, I will most certainly add you as an open-minded, truth-seeking individual. And as soon as I'm done here, I'm going to vote you for the Way Above award.

anxietydisorder: Thanks, love to get a vote.

Do you have any more information about the 'techs' or any good links to more information on them? They seem to not be thoroughly defined in the sites I have located (again, mostly anti-scientology sites sponsored by the Christian right wing...)

anxietydisorder: Most of what you'll find on the web is anti-Scientology, but they do have their own web sites. A quick search on google will find the real McCoys if you punch in "scientology", this should give you a start:
www.scientology.org...

and I am truly interested in your experimentation with various eastern religious ideas. I have long been interested in the eastern ideas and beliefs, and find them absolutely fascinating, if solely for their differences with that of western beliefs and ideals.

anxietydisorder: As far as my exposure to eastern religions, that was many years ago and consisted of time spent with the Hare Krishnas and after that doing meditation and yogi type exercises on top of a lot of reading. ( I do recomend the book "Johnathan Livingstone Seagull").

I find the main difference between eastern and western philosophy is that western beliefs tend to centre around the soul and the great reward to follow when your dead, and the eastern religions tend to centre on the now. How your body is functioning and how in tune you are with your immediate environment. Only my opinion, but Scientology combines these very well.

Again, Thank You for your candid points and opinions. I applaude your efforts to remain true to the topic at hand. Kudos!

As With Anything...... Enter With Your Eyes Wide Open

If you drop me a u2u as to where you are, city, town etc........... I'll look someone up in your area that you can work through Dianetics with, ( it takes two), I won't give out any of your personal information, but will find someone you can contact on your own terms.


You did ask about futher reading: Check out the "Book Of Axioms" and there is a small pamphlet type thing called "The Way To Happiness". Both of these hold invaluable information. (the last being mostly common sense)

There is a communication course that is really inexpensive (maybe $30.00) that I would recomend to anyone that deals with the public or has to make presentations or work with co-workers. You will come away with a better understanding of how communication works, and how to use that to your advantage.

But Again I Say........ Go Into This With Yours Eyes Wide Open

The drive to make money and get the stats up can take precident over all else.

And as with anything; you get out of it what you put into it, So if you persue this further, I wish you luck. The journey won't be easy, you have to be willing to expose your deepest inner self, but the burdens of life do become easier to carry..............

I remain open to any questions about Scientology that members post.
I will answer them to the best of my abilty based on what I know from personal experience.

This thread is getting kinda long, so if I've missed a specific question and not answered it, run it by me again.

I'll do my best to respond.

[edit on 28-6-2005 by anxietydisorder]

i've read the entire thread and am still tremendously bothered by scientology.

i have serious issues with any religion that interferes with medical care. for a religion to totally take a stand against mental health practitioners is just ludicrious. i would hate to see some of these folks have a family member diagnosed with SCHIZOPHRENIA, PANIC DISORDER, BI-POLAR, DEPRESSION or anything else that requires TRUE MEDICATION to treat and live a productive life. there's no amt of auditing or cleansing, meditating or whatEVER in the world that can CURE these things without medical intervention.

and since tom cruise has become the most recent poster boy for the "church" his interview where he spoke out against Brooke Shields for taking medication for her very severe postpartum depression is just WRONG. again.............i would HATE for some member of CRUISE'S family have that happen to them and not be allowed treatment.......

the second thing that i want to ask is this.............is it TRUE that as you move up in the church.......or maybe i should say.......in ORDER to MOVE up in the church is it true that you have to pay more and more $$$$$ to receive the "true enlightment" of information laid down by LRH?

i mean................to be a BEGINNER in the church you pay $$ to receive your tutelage.........but after 10yrs and much whatever you call it....counselling? you have to pay $$$$$$ before you can move on to the next level?????

if that's true does that mean poor people could never move to the ultimate level of enlightment because they can't afford it? or is this just some BS rumor about the church>??

thanks for any information you can share.


angie

Many celeb are scientology

you could go to wikapedia for more information

en.wikipedia.org...

it talks about the idea,creator and who's famous celeb. in it.

I recomend this website to anyone who wants to know any information.

As my view to this i think its kinda wrong because some thing you need medical drugs to clam you down not everybody is powerful mentaly. example when doing an operation you need pain killer.

regarding as a relgion I dont want to take to a guy who is writing sci-fi books to say to me relgious stuff.

i am very sceptic about this relgion, but thats my piont of view maybe others have something different

Originally posted by anxietydisorder
I remain open to any questions about Scientology that members post.
I will answer them to the best of my abilty based on what I know from personal experience.

This thread is getting kinda long, so if I've missed a specific question and not answered it, run it by me again.

I'll do my best to respond.

[edit on 28-6-2005 by anxietydisorder]

The book is on its way! (Amazon.com) I'll U2U you for more info. Thanks again anx!

Wow, this is a long (and interesting) thread. I've been away from ATS for awhile, happened to see this thread on google when I was looking for something else.

There's much that could be responded to (e.g., Hubbard most certainly didn't commit suicide), but for now let me suggest that anyone who wanted to find out about Scientology (the philosophy) without getting involved with the Church itself could start at the site below.

(Glad to see you're still here, Duzey - and still making a great deal of sense

[edit on 30-6-2005 by Azeari of the Radiant Eye]

OMG!

Hi!!!! I should have just sent you an email asking you if you would pop in to help out with this thread. I feel bad for not staying in better touch. Look for an catch up email over the weekend.

Azeari is an excellent source of information on this subject, and a heck of a guy. He will answer any question you have to the best of his ability.

PS. Love the site redesign, looks great!

Originally posted by Azeari of the Radiant Eye
Wow, this is a long (and interesting) thread.

There's much that could be responded to (e.g., Hubbard most certainly didn't commit suicide),

Any info other members can provide on the death of LRH would be greatly appreciated. I was a Sea Org. member at the time of his death and was involved with setting up his memorial service at the Hollywood Paladium (I think it was at the Paladium, though it may have been at another venue). I remember that we had to set up a satellite feed so that it could be seen in every country that had Scientology.

One thing that always stuck in my head was the people in the RPF had to "chicken pick" all the carpets before the service started.
(to "chicken pick" means picking up every bit of lint, dirt, etc... by hand and without a vacuum cleaner)

If anyone has an autopsy report or any documents that describe the cause of death, I would be interested in seeing them. I would also be interested in any toxicology results attained post mortem.

Yes, I do know where to find the autopsy report...give me a few, as I recall it was at a very obscure website.

I'm not sure the cause of death was definitely determined, but it certainly wasn't suicide. The Church "handled" his death very thoroughly, to the point that no one really knows all the circumstances (or, at least no one who is talking). His private doctor had been sent away, so the whole thing was "managed" by Church officials.

Aside from normal curiosity, I'm not sure how much it matters. He did what he did, and what he came up with remains extraordinarily useful. Particularly when using the original, unaltered materials, and avoiding the hollow, money-grubbing organization that the Church has turned into over the past 20 years. That's what the growing movement known as the Freezone is all about: applying Hubbard's original philosophy and technology. Without the BS.

It's worth noting that Hubbard's wife, Mary Sue, died just recently. The Church's silence on this event speaks volumes. Anyway, my friends at the International Freezone Association have posted a MSH tribute site.

I'd like to say a bit about the mental health angle, an area in which I have direct, personal experience. Next post...

"Wait a minute, you can't have a Jewish Christian because Jewish religion does not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior," and you can't have a "Christian Muslim because, well, which is it, Jesus or Mohammed?"

The difference with Scientology is that there's isn't any "savior". There is no requirement to believe in anything in particular (although of course there ends up being general agreement on certain principles, because people find them to be workable and therefore "true" for them). Some might argue that this proves that Scn isn't a religion, however there are other, ancient religions (Buddhism, for example) that have no specific "savior". Scn is a religion in that it addresses spiritual matters.

I have always heard that when a giving member wants to leave the church they will do what they can to destroy you personally.

This is untrue, or at the very least not true across the board. I left in 1980 and have never been bothered in any way. I have heard stories of such pesecution, but have no way to judge their truth.

You cannot be a Christian Scientologist just like you cannot be a Christian Mason.

Do what?? I have known many Chrisitian masons. My late father for one. In fact, as I understand it, being a Christian is a prerequisite for membership.

They attempt to disconnect you from your family and all people who are against the church, they are completely against psychology and structured medical care, and when member cannot pay for his lessons, they ask the member to sign a contract volunteering to work for one billion years!

In fact, it's more normal for the Church to encourage REconnection with family members. On occasion, when family members become SEVERELY anti-Scn, a temporary "disconnection" can be the only way forward.

The psychology part is pretty much true, although you could argue that for Scientologists, Scn technology replaces psychology in that, unlike psychology, it actually provides tools that work. Not endless psychobabble, dangerous drugs, or ice picks in the brain. A simple concept, really: instead of treating symptoms, it gets to the bottom of what ails ya.

We have no issue with medical doctors. A broken arm needs a cast, an infection needs antibiotics, etc...

You've have hit on something regarding money. This is to do with the Church today; it wasn't always so and isn't so now in the Freezone.

Both of them were seperated and talked to two seperate people who apperently did some weird hypno therapy as they were calling it.

Such a thing would NEVER happen in a Scn place. Hypnosis or anything remotely like it is completely verboten. In fact, Scn is the polar opposite, all about increasing awareness...

Dianetics, as far as I gather in my limited understanding, is not, strictly, scientology. Dianetics was prior to scientology, but I also suspect that the two things are very similar.

Dianetics was first. It addresses the mind. Scn came later and addresses the spirit. The two are pretty much fused togeter now, although it is possible to gain benefit from Dianetics only. Less so Scn, as Dianetics is still the underlying theory.

His basic theory, about engrams, is incorrect, and the auditing process doesn't get ride of instinctual and programmed behaviour either.

How do you know the theory is incorrect? I have found it to be true; true in the sense that it's workable, which imho is the only useful kind of truth.

LRH even told his OWN WIFE that she should commit suicide.

Got a source for that statement? Seems your posts are riddled with rumor and innuendo...

Do you have any more information about the 'techs' or any good links to more information on them?

Sure do U2U me or see my website...

i would hate to see some of these folks have a family member diagnosed with SCHIZOPHRENIA, PANIC DISORDER, BI-POLAR, DEPRESSION or anything else that requires TRUE MEDICATION to treat and live a productive life. there's no amt of auditing or cleansing, meditating or whatEVER in the world that can CURE these things without medical intervention.

Says who? The people who prescibe and the companies that make huge profits, that's who. I don't have time right now to go into detail, but my personal experience tells me that these drugs don't work. At best they zombifiy people to the point where maybe they act a little more "normal". But they only (attempt to) treat symptoms, they cannot and do not get to the bottom of what's actually wrong with a person.

Perhaps if anyone really knew exactly what these drugs were doing, or - better yet - if anyone really understood exactly how the brain works, well then maybe an effective drug-based treatment could be developed. But I don't really believe that; I don't believe mental illness is caused by a sick brain, it's the person controlling that brain who needs help.

The above, of course, is a personal opinon (based on experience, both of being treated with drugs and watching others being treated). Don't stop taking your meds without careful consideration and consultation with a doctor

Anyway, time for sleep. Goodnight all!

Scott

Originally posted by Azeari of the Radiant Eye
That's what the growing movement known as the Freezone is all about: applying Hubbard's original philosophy and technology.

I just wanted to add on to this a little bit, so that people not familiar with the history of Scientology know what you are getting at here.

In Scientology, it is very important that you learn the material exactly how it was written by Hubbard. That is why most Scientologists urge you to read it for yourself, so they don't 'taint' your understanding. You have to be completely clear (no pun intended) on the subject matter, with not a single thing you are unsure of, before you can move to the next. Like a correspondence course broken up in segments you do one at a time.

The key is ' How L Ron Hubbard Wrote It'. The only place you will find Scientology 100% the way Hubbard wrote it is in the Freezone. The Church has altered some of the writings, and by doing so have basically gone against much of Hubbard's teachings.

In my opinion, the Freezone is the only place you can practice Scientology the way Hubbard intended it to be.

Originally posted by anxietydisorder
If anyone has an autopsy report or any documents that describe the cause of death, I would be interested in seeing them. I would also be interested in any toxicology results attained post mortem.

You can find gif's of the coroner and toxicology reports here:

home.earthlink.net...

They are part of a site called The Mysterious Death of L. Ron Hubbard and it is full of useful info. Definitely recommended reading.

Just to whet your appetite for this site, two facts. Traces of Vistaril were found in his body, according to the toxicology report, and no autopsy was performed because he had signed a document prohibiting it on religious grounds in 1983.

Vistaril
Generic Name: hydroxyzine (hye DROX ee zeen)
-snip-
What is hydroxyzine?
• Hydroxyzine depresses activity in the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord), which causes relaxation and relief from anxiety. Therefore, hydroxyzine is used to treat anxiety disorders and tension in stressful situations--before surgery, for example.
• Hydroxyzine may also increase the effects of other medicines, such as pain relievers and sedatives, so it is useful after surgery also.
• Hydroxyzine is also an antihistamine. It blocks the effects of the naturally occurring chemical histamine in your body. This makes hydroxyzine useful for treating allergic conditions, especially those that involve the skin, such as hives, itching, and rashes.
• Hydroxyzine may also be used for purposes other than those listed in this medication guide.

www.drugs.com...

I find it odd that he had a known psychiatric drug in his system when he died. I can't imagine him taking that medication with his stance on psych meds. Even if they were being used to treat something else, I can't see him putting that drug in his body.

I think the whole thing with this Tom Cruise craze is simple. Mainstream media is targeting how nuts this guy really is. I mean I saw the Today Show thing, and a clip from when Cruise was on Oprah. He claims how drugs and pshycology(sp?) is wrong because HE understands it better than any doctor or expert on the subject.

He argues with Matt Lauer showing how completely strange he is, and jumps around Oprah on her couches like a complete fool. Mainstream media is catching on to this and is silently showing how corrupt and crazy Scientology is. To get to a higher plane of existance or whatever they call it requires larger financial sums of money to basically pay for it. It would be like a Catholic paying the Church a few million dollars to be a Cardinal or something.

I find it entertaining how nuts this guy and people like him are. Take a look at his new girl Katie Holmes. SHe completely threw her own beliefs into the trash and became a Scientologist. How crazy can one be to actually do that to join Scientology? I dont know, but Scientology scares the living crap out of me.