energy & god...

if you're all up to date with your science then you will know that energy is neither created nor destroyed, its merely converted from one type to another. if we cannot create energy or destroy it then there has always been one amount of energy in the whole universe, thus acknowledging the athiest view 'there had never been a beggining, matter has always been here in one form or another'.

if engery cannot be destroyed or created then even how powerful people proclaim god is...he could not create energy. energy cannot be created. its changed in to one form to another and so on. end of. perhaps im assuming too much and god did create energy and all matter. the only problem with this is that the concept of 'energy not being created nor destroyed' only fits in with the athiest view 'there is no beggining, matter has always been here in one form or another'.

THe first thing God created was light. If that isn't a form of energy I would like to know what it is.

Man-Made energy is rather crude and is a poor substitute of the Fusion reaction in side our sun, and the energy it produces which is more then enough for humans to live and grow.

But to go to antheist he has to spend billions of years to explain how it was created by chance and physics in a Godless universe.

But to go to antheist he has to spend billions of years to explain how it was created by chance and physics in a Godless universe.

Yep, so much easier to assign to a boogeyman in the sky...we should definitely take the easy way out...

Conservation of Energy has it's issues....

Still, the easy theology way out is to simply think of God more as the Manipulator, versus Creator, and that he simply manipulated the energy there..or indeed that he IS the energy, and every bit of energy is God, etc.

There are plenty of ways to make this argument, whether from a theologic standpoint, or atheistic.

Oh dear. God's been disproved. POOF.
Heheh...not going to be that easy. As science progresses, the concept of God does as well. As we better understand ourselves and our universe (the art), it helps us better understand God (The Artist).
For example, when people thought that the universe was a static place, with Earth in the middle, the concept of "Heaven" was someplace past the "other heavens", outside the universe. Then when this was disproved, people started thinking that perhaps Heaven was the highest dimension. I think all this is silly. It is impossible to mesh the scientifically known world with the spiritually known "other-world".

Sure there was a beginning. It was called the big bang. All energy is not constant, but all energy, and the energy derived from all mass present is constant (E=mc^2). It is debateable that we go through cycles of big bangs and "big crunches" because at the moment, the universe is expanding at an increasing rate. As in, it shows no sign of slowing down to start a big crunch.
While science has proven that the system cannot change the total amount of energy inside the system, there is no way to prove that something outside the system didn't change it.
Even the beginning of the universe. Creation of energy/matter could be started by separating NOTHING into matter and anti-matter. This would happen continuously until the matter is so dense, and in such a small area, that it implodes, and spews "Universe" everywhere.

OK, I just love to play devils advocate

So all this proves is that God could not have created the energy in the universe. For those of faith, scientifically we can say that God can transduce (change from one form to another) for the Universe to exist. Those who believe in more than 4 dimensions could would also say that the energy of our universe is the lower state or biproduct of energy we cannot observe.

Originally posted by Gazrok

But to go to antheist he has to spend billions of years to explain how it was created by chance and physics in a Godless universe.

Yep, so much easier to assign to a boogeyman in the sky...we should definitely take the easy way out...

Conservation of Energy has it's issues....

Still, the easy theology way out is to simply think of God more as the Manipulator, versus Creator, and that he simply manipulated the energy there..or indeed that he IS the energy, and every bit of energy is God, etc.

There are plenty of ways to make this argument, whether from a theologic standpoint, or atheistic.

Actually if we take on the judeo-christian biblical concept of God and creation, you find in the real hebrew version, that the correct, literal translation says that god formed/forged, w/e word it was i forget, the universe. Vrs. what main stream bible translations say, "created", isn't actually what Genesis says, which is good as it turns out, for the bible believers. I wish i could find the link where i read this, it was on a forum started(sum random site for debates) that sed a certain sect of science, i cant remember for the life of me what the name was, sumthing to do with energy, disproved the bible. Someone smarter came up, who hapened to read hebrew and mentioned this, and so in the end it didnt go against science.
This means it doesnt necessarily mean god created it(the energy needed to create mattter), which doesnt go against modern science at all in the end. So this means that obviously god is a source of pure energy(why not at least) and he/she/it formed the universe out of itself and with this energy that IS him/her/it.
Voila! Congratulations....

you say 'god created light' like its fact. it is not. its an opinion. im not saying im disproving god im saying the concept of energy fits in better with the theory that there was no beggining and energy and matter has always been here. you simply say 'god created light, energy, the universe' without the need to justify. its the same when someone talks about evolution. some religious people say yeah well if its true the god created evolution...so there really is no end to this discussion.

We know so little about the universe and its beginnings that I doubt anything can be proved/disproved in this discussion. Seems to be leading nowhere like a couple of you already said.

Creation of energy/matter could be started by separating NOTHING into matter and anti-matter. This would happen continuously until the matter is so dense, and in such a small area, that it implodes, and spews "Universe" everywhere.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here...how can you separate something that doesn't exist into something that does? Are you saying that antimatter + matter = nothingness? antimatter and matter collisions actually produce a great amount of energy which has been seriously looked at for use as a space fuel. The only problem is with harnessing the antimatter in useful amounts, which is impossible to do with our current technology.

What you might find interesting Babloyi is the "budding" theory of the universe. It also fits in the the accelerating universe theory, which we now know as fact. In this theory, there is a matrix of some sort from which many universes are budded. The universes, some like ours, some dramatically different ballon out from the matrix and accelerate by Dark Energy. Instead of coming to a "Big Crunch" we are headed towards a "Big Tear" in which the universe expands to such a degree that spacetime is torn apart, and the bubble "bursts". The matrix (God? lol) would be responsible for creating the universe and giving it its energy. I'm not exactly sure if this is called the Budding theory or not, I'll have to check on it. There are also many takes on this theory, like budding from within our own universe, parallel universes....etc. This is just the idea I think would make the most sense out of all of them, but no one can be certain for sure.

[edit on 17-6-2005 by zhangmaster]

THousands of years ago when something happened and no one knew why they called it magic, or made up stories of higher beings to explain them.

Now these days man has become arrogent and gained hubris because he has replaced magic with the word Science and thinks he knows everything important. While a few others remain humble, for what thier deity has done when they knew nothing

Originally posted by zhangmaster
The only problem is with harnessing the antimatter in useful amounts, which is impossible to do with our current technology.

The only problem is harnessing it at all. It does not exist in nature here on earth. Any anti-matter that has been studied in a laboratory has been converted from energy.

@babloyi

Scientifically, nothing comes from nothing. All else of substance comes from a conversion of energy/mass.

Theologically, nothing comes from nothing. All else of substance comes from God.

Either way, nothing comes from nothing.

@Jehosephat

If the first thing God created was light, what exactly did he do in Gen 1:1-2?



[edit on 18-6-2005 by Raphael_UO]

My own study of the Bible and science led me to believe that before light came sound. Genesis 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light..."; also, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word [logos]...and the Word was God. (1:3) and without him [Word] was not anything made that was made." Clearly, God spoke everything into existence -- including energy.

As for "In the beginning..." (Gen 1:1), it is our beginning; including all life and non-life in the universe as we understand it, that is addressed. In no way can one even remotely infer that God had a beginning.

I understand the scentific principles in the laws of thermodynamics (as in physics) that matter/energy cannot being created or destroyed. However, these 'laws' will probably be replaced at some time; just as the old Euclidian and Newtonian laws have become out-dated. The holy scriptures say in II Corinthians 4:18 that things whcih are seen are temporary, but things which are not seen are eternal. Sound cannot be seen. For those who prefer contemporary science as their guide, black holes cannot be seen, dark matter cannot be seen, and sound waves cannot be seen. All we can observe is light's interaction with them.

In short,
the One who spoke the physics of the universe into existence is the only one who has the power to destroy it

Originally posted by chanteuse
My own study of the Bible and science led me to believe that before light came sound.

Regardless of what the bible says.. sound can NEVER come before light.. the speed of sound is something like 4x slower than the light speed.. and why would 'god' need to have said this out loud if he hadn't created ears yet?

In response: How could light have velocity when it did not yet exist?

The power (call it energy if you choose) is in the spoken word, which must have sound. Just because the human race was not around to hear it does not mean it wasn't said.

Originally posted by chanteuse
In response: How could light have velocity when it did not yet exist?

The power (call it energy if you choose) is in the spoken word, which must have sound.

Sound waves are slower that light waves.. it does not matter if the bible says a word was spoken first- it can't change this universal scientific fact no matter how much you want it to. I would also like to know seeing you insist that a spoken word must have sound.. what creates the sound waves? A voice box? It must have been matter of some kind to cause that vibration.. in which case god would have to reside somewhere in a universe that he has not yet created? Where do these sound waves travel to? If space doesn't exist yet there is no such thing as distance and therefore no sound.

Just because the human race was not around to hear it does not mean it wasn't said.

Unless you were actually there at the time you don't know.. even the MEN who wrote the bible don't know.. they weren't around to hear it so it is.. heresay.
And as no-one was there to hear it.. why wouldn't he just think it instead?

Originally posted by riley
even the MEN who wrote the bible don't know.. they weren't around to hear it so it is.. heresay.

if they weren't able to hear it, and weren't present when god said these things, then why do you believe it is at all truth? why do you put so much faith in to a few people that wrote similar genesis versions that were later intertwined? egyptians wrote about how they get to the after life, why they bury the dead how they do...does that mean its true? because they wrote about it, and 'they' believed it, why should we think its at all true? well we pretty much dont. those egyptian faiths are now long gone, as are the greek gods...they were written about, talked about, believed by millions...yet are nothing more than ancient history. i guess christianity is so special because of the bible, the devinity of it, all those predictions and prophecies that have come true...how could anyone not believe in it...

im going to assume and guess that 5% to 10% of the world's population believe in the predictions and prophecies of the bible. if these were at all credible predictions and prophecies then a lot more people would believe them. that percentage is only a guess, but at such a small one at that, it in no one suggests these prophecies are credible. but i think ive gone slightly off the topic of energy...

what i guess would be the point of this is, 'how credible are the genesis accounts of creation'...the answer would be almost zero. there's in no way any proof this happened, or proof this was how genesis was written down in the very first place, as there is no original copy. face facts, religion may say science never has any evidence or facts to back anything up it says, yet the bible has even less, but they don't ever question that.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by chanteuse
My own study of the Bible and science led me to believe that before light came sound.

Regardless of what the bible says.. sound can NEVER come before light.. the speed of sound is something like 4x slower than the light speed.. and why would 'god' need to have said this out loud if he hadn't created ears yet?

The speed of sound means nothing smart guy....what is important is it's vibration, the speed of sound is the measure of how long it takes sound to reach your ears.
Perhaps you don't know but everything, all matter, is as has been said in here, energy, which means at the same time, everything is VIBRATING. what does a vibration give off? Well sound. We may not be able to hear it, but its true, science has proved this. www.svpvril.com... Sympathetic vibratory physics is exactly the study of just that. Now in studying this, you soon find that sound is much much much more important than you originally thought. Because if everything is vibrating harmoniously as energy in a hard physical type form. Don't you think that perhaps sound is what got it that way in the first place?!?!? Or perhaps if everything is vibrating you can manage to synchronize with it as well by vibrating a mantra(sound) identical to that objects energy vibration. Thus if everythin has there own vibrations, you can create objects with a right amount of sound the right length of time, and that object will manifest according to the mantra specially set out for it! So the lord released sound and manifested matter, light, is another form of energy, and it probably takes its own mantra to manifest this as well. All this means is that light may have spread thru the nothingnesss that became the universe! Only because it moves faster, therefore sound could manifest the light, but just because it's slower is of no consequence. Sound is what moves energy, sound is what compressed energy, sound made matter. Eastern religion/philosophy states that "The lord meditated(said) the syllable Om and all the worlds sprung forth". This is probably apparent in judaism as well i believe. Mantras have to do with this entire discussion of energy and vibration and creation. Check out this thread to see what i mean.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Vesuvius 13

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by chanteuse
My own study of the Bible and science led me to believe that before light came sound.

Regardless of what the bible says.. sound can NEVER come before light.. the speed of sound is something like 4x slower than the light speed.. and why would 'god' need to have said this out loud if he hadn't created ears yet?

The speed of sound means nothing smart guy....

Well yeah it does when someone says it's faster than light and created the universe.. and that the words god supposedly uttered were important.. despite language only being something humans and other animals evolved to communicate more effectively with eachother.

what is important is it's vibration, the speed of sound is the measure of how long it takes sound to reach your ears.
Perhaps you don't know but everything, all matter, is as has been said in here, energy, which means at the same time, everything is VIBRATING. what does a vibration give off? Well sound.

Exactly.. it is the reaction of vibration.. it doesn't cause it [though sound can effect things like glass etc.. it still is not the catalyst].

Now in studying this, you soon find that sound is much much much more important than you originally thought. Because if everything is vibrating harmoniously as energy in a hard physical type form. Don't you think that perhaps sound is what got it that way in the first place?!?!?

No. We've already established that sound is a biproduct of vibration.. not the cause.

So the lord released sound and manifested matter, light, is another form of energy, and it probably takes its own mantra to manifest this as well. All this means is that light may have spread thru the nothingnesss that became the universe! Only because it moves faster, therefore sound could manifest the light,

Sound does not manifest light. :shk:
Light is created when energy is released. Sound is created by the vibration of matter reacting to something. They are both reactions.. the 'lord' does not have to be the action that caused them.. thats just assuming a desired answer to something instead of 'I don't know'.. and it kind of doesn't make sense as that implies there is a sentient being existing where nothing can exist.

I'm definately with you on this one Riley. Sound could not have come before matter because matter creates sound in the first place through its vibrations as he said. What came first according to Big Bang theory is an increase in empty space. Space expanded first, and then light followed behind. This is the big expanse where space increased at a rate faster than the speed of light, but this doesn't go against the laws of physics because in this 'time period', space was just starting to form.

When this Bang occured, sound and light were created. There is no way sound would go faster than light. Sound travels at roughly 740 miles per hour, while light travels at 669,600,000 miles per hour (commonly known as 186,000 miles per second). That's about 1 million times faster than the speed of sound! So that's how it is...the big bang produced a lot of energy (light)....that energy cooled in a sense and went into a lower state...this creates matter, and matter vibrates to create sound.

[edit on 18-6-2005 by zhangmaster]

Okay, in a way your right, so let's rephrase it by saying God or whatever divine being uttered the 'vibration'. Which may have come out as sound, and the vibration which is energy made the universe. So voila, whats wrong with that?

wouldn't it be enough that God thought it? As in using telepathy? In the bible God was able to communicate with people via dreams.

in the way God thought it, light was created and while it was being created we heard the sound of his command