Discussion: The Future Of The Collaborative Fiction Forum

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Due to lack of prescence or community, staff neglects fiction forum. Due to neglect by staff, no real community coaleses

First of all, Deus, ...........you're interest and efforts on behalf of the Collaborative Fiction forum is well good........

But let's not get carried away. It is an aspect of AboveTopSecret.com and is inherently going to have a slower growth rate and as a result, less attention paid to it.......

1) The demographics......

Many people are visiting and poosting on this site. And what is themajor drawpoint? Conspiracies, big and small, and everthing that doesn't get any attention in general conversation. People come to ATS to get the dish on that nagging feeling that is haunting the back of their conscious, the one they can't acknowledge outright because of their job and social interests. They show up to listen to those nutjobs in society.........who may not be so nuts........

And all of that precludes the fiction forum. Hell, there are enough threads in some of the more popular forums that go a long way to counting as fiction for some who frequent our stomping grounds and thus a collaborative fiction outlet is not as neccassary for some.

2) Real Life.......

Many people don't have the time to carry on with their daily lives, catch up on the latest threads, respond to their favorite threads, and compose or participate in story telling. Reflecting on the sometimes very busy nature of our lives, fiction is going to take a back seat on the priority list.

3) All other subjective reasons.......

As said, there are many people on this board and there are going to be many reasons why this forum is going to be shuffled to the back of consciousness......besides, not everyone wants to be a writer and those who do don't necassarily know what that means. When I first requested my status, I envisioned myself being a lot more involved.......but ended up being distracted by the very thing I joined ATS to begin with......the very intelligent and lcollaborative nature of the main body site.

You stated above that no realcommunity is being afforded the oppurtunity to coalesce........I disagree.

I have come to know the various expressions of people I would never have encountered without this form of instantaneous communication. Furthermore, I have come to be known by others of this forum and have felt that I have become a part of this site in the eyes of other ATS'rs.

AboveTopSecret.com is the community and I see it coalescing just fine. The other forums, specifically CF will follow in time, given the efforts and ideas brought forth in this thread. Determining that this forum is being full on neglected is a bit hasty, imo, seeing as this thread is carrying on in full force and the recent short story contest that I felt was successful.......

to all the participants in this thread........this is how progress/improvements get made......

Sort Of Off-Topic, But Hey

My job is to represent you, not serve as an apologist for the staff, but as I review this thread, I feel compelled to share something I've learned in the past three weeks.

I know many of you feel neglected, and I'm not in a position where I think making some sort of pronouncement on that one way or the other makes sense.

But let's assume that you are, despite worldwatcher's best efforts to keep things together here.

By the way, on that note, I have learned a lot more than I expected to about what it's like to be a moderator around here (through behind-the-scenes peeks), and it is not hyperbole for me to say that it's a lot harder than it looks.

Moderators have limited powers, and they do what they can with what they have. When I solicit input from worldwatcher about CF, it is with the awareness that she almost certainly knows more about CF than anyone else on ATS, because she has probably read every thread in it -- or, at the very least, probably more of them than anyone else.

She knows better than anyone else what's going on around here, but her role as a moderator is to tend the forum. She can't just spontaneously change things like an admin can, and even admins -- in fact, especially admins -- are very mindful of what they do, because a mistake at that level can have all sorts of nasty consequences.

Staff Caucus

And that brings us to the senior staff. There are not a lot of them, because if there were, ATS would probably fall into total chaos.

Senior staff members have to be very circumspect about what they do, or risk breaking something very serious. Their caution can be misinterpreted as inaction, but I think we should all be glad they aren't trigger-happy.

If they were, it would be bad.

Is CF low on the list of things senior staff worry about? Without putting words in their mouths, my impression is that it is, but not because they don't care.

It's a matter of scale and priorities. Just look at how huge this place is. Senior staff members deal with all the forums and sister sites, and that's a hell of a lot of stuff.

If you think CF has issues, I invite you to consider how bad things are here compared to some of the other forums. There's a lot of pots a-boiling, and only so many chefs to go around.

The senior staff have to make sure the site stays running, keep it from being hacked, keep some sort of handle on all the insanity that our forums traditionally generate (including the dreaded “board drama”, for which I am a leading culprit) as well as a bunch of other things.

And maybe, when they find the time, they can indulge in simply reading what people have to say and maybe enjoy the simple pleasure of being an ATS member. Because senior staffers are, after all, members too.

And they are all chronically overworked and overexposed.

My Challenge

Having spent three weeks interacting with senior staff members -- usually by butting heads with them -- I'm still pretty clueless about a lot of things, but I finally think I know where I fit in as a Councilor.

The senior staff have been entrusted with the keys to the foundations of ATS. They don't mess with such things without damn good reasons.

So when I present recommendations to the senior staff, it's up to me to make sure they include damn good reasons for agreeing with them.

I feel like a schmuck that it has taken me three weeks to figure that out, but if I'm right, and I finally do have a clue about all this, then I will (I hope!) be able to take your input and convert it into something that will get the nod from senior staffers.

It is serendipity, perhaps, that I am going to use CF as my starting point for the process, because I can't think of a better group to collaborate with on something like this than a bunch of writers.

Now, time for me to stop blabbing and get back to business -- although I intend to intersperse other things into the process, because I enjoy just being a member of ATS too.

Memoryshock, when I refer to community-especially in this thread- I refer to the ATS writing community, as a subsect of the larger whole. Go back to what I've said. To address your points:

1. Let us compare members to story views. When any given short story - when not in competition season- gets a mere fourteen views, then we obviously have a NEGLECT issue. Total disinterest on the part of most members. That said, the mods also don't exactly push the Fiction forums, do they?

2. While fiction may fall towards the back of the priority list, it is still a very important part of the community. Look at your moddom- Banshee, WW, CKK, and Intrepid were all avid members of this forum before being elected for the greater good.

3. As for your objections that not everyone is a writer, well, I'm sure since most people come here and READ posts, I would assume that they READ outside the forum as well. How's about they come READ the works of their compatriots, give support and encouragement?

I, of all people, know what this site has done. I was at the Great Lakes Convention, remember? I know all about communication. That's why I can't understand why when all the writers are yelling or silenced, no one cares.

I by no means blame WW. Though, considering everything, I'm sure she would appreciate some support in the form of at least an assistant.

Majic, you have our imput, now GO TO. If you need help with this proposal, you know where we are.

DE

While I agree that there has been much that is wrong with CF, there has also been some very good work produced in it, as well. I would just like to see some of the more promising stories and projects continued, perhaps with some prodding by the mods or councilors.

I really don't think we need to break any ground in the sex and violence arena. It would be very bad indeed if we let this devolve into stupid vulgarities in the name of freedom of expression. The real beauty of free expression is finding creative ways to describe delicate subjects, rather than relying on profanities. I think my work here has been among the most macabre, but so far I haven't gotten any warning in the CF section, which I guess is worthy of note, in its own right.

[edit on 2005/7/5 by GradyPhilpott]

Collaborative Fiction First Pass Issues List

This is a very loose list of what I'm picking up from your posts. It probably doesn't include everything, but it's a start for me to work with.

The “brainstorming” format may not make sense to you, and if so, sorry about that. This is the way I jot things down when I read through the thread, and it can be redundant. Stuff in parentheses represents random neural firings I may have on an issue.

Having compiled this list, I want to meditate on it for a bit before drafting that first proposal. The first proposal will likely only contain a few of these things, because if I dump a big list in the senior staff's lap, they won't even have time to look at it.

However, I don't plan to throw this list away, but rather refine it over time and keep it handy for future reference.

Sorry about the godawful run-on formatting, I used a word processor not BBcode for the indention, and unlike on my WP, it all runs together here. I may clean it up, but this is a background document, so hey (does anyone know of a BBCode filter for OpenOffice.org? That would be phat).

1 Forum Rename (have the writers vote on this?)
1.1 Creative Writing
1.2 Fiction or ATS Fiction
1.3 Poochie, or something more proactive
1.4 Member Musings
1.5 Silence Denied
1.6 Writing Forum
2 Subforums -- or something
2.1 Poetry
2.2 Collaborative Fiction
2.3 Song lyrics (put in poetry?)
2.4 Genres (I recommend not creating too many subforums right off)
2.4.1 Horror (Gothic), Science Fiction, Fantasy, Action, Conspiracy, Romance, Satire
2.5 Contest subforum?
2.6 Portfolios (probably not practical to have separate subforum for each writer, maybe threads?)
2.7 Workshop subforum (see below)
2.7.1 Story planning
2.7.2 Story Discussion
2.8 SO warns that subforums can be overlooked
2.8.1 (I warn that subforums also need to be separately monitored for new posts)
2.8.2 SO offers ATSNN as a possible template
2.9 May use “drop categories” to put things in their place
3 Writer Voting And Awards
3.1 Monthly award like WATS
3.2 Broken down by category, and overall
3.3 Using WATS votes (I think a dedicated vote/award system would be better)
3.4 WW will be holding a contest in July
4 Collaborative Fiction
4.1 Encouraging collaboration
5 Workshops
5.1 A place to discuss writing itself, techniques, style, how-to, etc.
5.2 Center for the ATS writer community
5.3 A place off-thread to discuss ongoing CF and other threads
5.3.1 (so the comments don't cut into the stories)
5.4 The “writers' lounge”
6 Feedback
6.1 As incentive
6.2 As way to improve writing
6.3 Needs to not interfere with thread content
7 Quality Control
7.1 Standards
7.2 Guidelines
7.3 Structure
8 Podcasts
8.1 “Books on tape”
9 Incentives
9.1 Feedback -- most important
9.2 Maybe some perks for good work
9.3 Recognition (highlight to other writers, and how about ATS as a whole?)
9.3.1 Exposure on the ATS front page
9.4 Why contribute?
10 Community
10.1 Support for the ATS writing community from ATS staff
10.2 Mutual support by writers for one another
10.3 Peer review, critiques
11 Relaxed Restrictions On Profanity
11.1 (my take: relaxing the T&C in CF, or anywhere on ATS, may be a hard sell)
12 Member Control
12.1 Editing at any time -- no time limit (or as I say, “Write once, edit forever”)
12.2 Access to threads
13 Moderator Control
13.1 More intervention when standards sag (that can be a tough call, needs definition)
14 Additional Moderator to back up worldwatcher
14.1 WW doesn't need full-time assistance, so maybe a back-up mod?
15 Writer Roll Call (DE started a thread)


Now for the part where I'm supposed to think...



P.S. “GO TO”? Geez DE, you're such a slave driver -- or a BASIC programmer.

Thinking Out Loud

Looking things over, it seems to me the best bang for the buck will come from starting with the reorganization of the CF forum and subforums. With that taken care of, implementing the other ideas will be much easier.

In particular, I strongly believe we need the workshop area people have been talking about, and am thinking it should, in fact, be our main forum, with the art handled separately and given the respect it deserves.

The mosh pit we currently have seems to be the most vexing issue to writers -- including me.

The trick is to make sure reorganizing things doesn't make matters worse.

Organizational Options

SO's point about subforums is a good one. If we have say five subforums, stuff may well disappear into them and be overlooked. That's also five subforums to add to MyATS for those of us who want to follow them, and that starts to get messy.

An alternative that I'm big on is using standard thread tags to classify threads in the same forum. Some examples:

Poetry: [title here]
Short Story: [title here]
Collaboration: [title here]

The tags don't have to be those specifically, all that matters is that they be standardized and not confusing. An ATSNN-style submission system could do that, with our faithful mod to clean up if needed (and if she doesn't get deluged by a re-org )

Subforums

Jumping back to subforums, a setup using subforums might look like this:

Writer's Workshop (Main forum)
/Collaborative Fiction (May be restricted to CF writers only, perhaps?)
/Poetry (includes lyrics and other poem-like stuff)
/Short Stories (single-author short works in all genres)

This gives us the general forum to serve as a our workshop and general writer's discussion space where people can do pretty much what they want, while breaking down the art threads themselves into three broad and reasonably inclusive categories.

I'm reluctant to suggest more than a few subforums, because the hairiness factor goes up exponentially.

Combined Concepts

We can combine the thread tag scheme with subforums to further classify art. For example, in Poetry we might have:

Haiku: [title here]
Lyrics: [title here]
Poem: [title here] (includes poems that don't fit a subcategory)

I'm still chewing on this, but want to keep you posted on where my thinking is as it slowly plods along.

I know my posts can seem incredibly spammy when I get revved up on a problem, but I would rather give you too much data than not enough -- although either are still sins.

If nothing else, it's here for you and I don't at all mind if you ignore it while I futz away.

As always, please don't hesitate to let me know what you think about any of this.

I expect excellence, Majic. Nothing less than. Have the writers not suffered long enough?

An excellent beginning. Anyone who has any other issues they deem to be of dire importance should speak their Latin now.

In the meantime, I encourage the rest of the writers of ATS to start pitching other, less dire needs or desires for a second proposal once the basics have been dealt with.

DE

That Which Moves The Pen

Originally posted by DeusEx
Have the writers not suffered long enough?

Of course not.

Suffering is what drives us to write.

As for the proposal, I think I'll go for subforums to start. That gives us some breathing room -- especially for general discussion -- and can serve as the foundation for whatever additional classification schemes we may want to use in the future.

Also, anything that handles such things will need to be designed to work with whatever forum scheme we're going to go with.

Now, let's see if I can make it short and sweet...

Draft Proposal: Collaborative Fiction Forum Reorganization, Rev 0.1

Here's my first pass on how I would write up a proposal for the senior staff. Because it also calls on moderator action, it would also need the explicit approval of any mods affected -- in this case, WW.

Purpose

To organize the content of the Collaborative Fiction forum to better serve the needs of writers.

Procedure

Admin

1. Rename the Collaborative Fiction forum to “Writers Workshop”. (1)

2. Create a subforum under “Writers Workshop” called “Poetry”, with the same access permissions as the parent forum.

3. Create a subforum under “Writers Workshop” called “Collaborative Fiction”, with the same access permissions as the parent forum.

Moderator

1. Create a “sticky” thread in the “Writers Workshop” forum which defines the categories of artistic content and which subforums they should be posted to.

2. Classify and transfer existing artistic content threads from the “Writers Workshop” forum to an appropriate subforum.

3. Classify and move new threads among the main forum and subforums as needed.

Comments

This gives us a badly-needed general workshop forum for writers, and puts the actual work in one of three dedicated content-only subforums.

The advantage is that we'll have a place to talk shop without stepping on the work.

The disadvantage is that the work itself will be squirreled away in the subforums. Since that's what people come there looking for in the first place, however, I don't think it will be a problem.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTES

(1) I like “Writers Workshop” for the main forum, because it identifies it as our workshop, and directly refers to the title us writers sport under our names. We can vote for a different name if folks want. Let me know.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a very rough draft, but the idea is to make it crystal clear what we want.

Before submitting a proposal like this, I will want to get your opinions about doing this, and especially want worldwatcher's input, because she would be expected to do some of this -- and maintain the result.

So if WW doesn't like it, it ain't gonna happen.

Bear in mind SO's warning: Work placed in subforums may get less attention than it already does. My additional caveat is that each subforum needs to be monitored separately with such features as MyATS if you want to know when new threads are posted.

Finally, the admins in question will need to be convinced this is the right way to go before making these changes, so before that can happen, we need to be confident this is the right way to go.

The only alternative I see that makes sense to me for classifying work is the thread tag system, which allows people to sort the forum by name to find stuff.

My opinion is that subforums combined with thread tags is probably best, but that subforums for Collaborative Fiction, Poetry and Short Stories represent different enough interests that any potential pitfalls caused by subforums will be offset by presenting the work in clear categories that closely match member interests.

Remember, this is only a proposed first step, but it's important that it be the right one.

That said, if it goes poorly, it shouldn't be too hard to move the threads to a different setup if something unforeseen leads us to want to discard this system. At least the work will have been sorted by this process.

What do you think?

Simple is better, always.

Sub-forums require additional user clicks... always a bad thing for websites.

We know the ATSNN.com format works well (now getting nearly 20,000 daily visitors)... it's simple.

Writer's Workshop seems to be a little too popular.

"ATS Fiction", fiction.abovetopsecret.com (fiction @ ats), ATW (above top writers), all seem to be more interesting names that compliment the core site.



(Someone should have tapped my shoulder about this sooner )

all the ideas sounds great....and while I am willing to work with whatever format is presented to me. I think the biggest issue is to find out what exactly can we request of Admin that doesn't require too much work so that it can actually get done...(not trying to say Admin doesn't do much, just trying to acknowledge that Admin does a whole lot more than we know and it is their time and effort that will actually make the changes)

Forum Rename is fine with me.
Subforums also fine with me, if we can't get specific genres, then 3 should be suffice, Short Stories, Collaborative Fiction and Poetry. (basically everything we currently have in the forum would fall under one of the three)

Contest Subforum...don't think we need it, I can stickied each contest and entries thru out the duration of a contest, so a separate forum imo is a waste of time.

Writer awards? I don't know, I realize this is a point driven system, but something like "writer of the month" might be nice....I don't know..have to think on this one....maybe a cool avatar or something?

ATSNN template for submitting stories sounds good to me

Quality control...in contests YES, quality is a must.
but honestly I have seen some very bad writers improve over time, with just practice and friendly critiques, so I would hate to discourage a budding writer because english may not be their first language or their spelling isn't on par.

No relaxation on profanity...remember this is not anyone's personal publishing forum, as some of you mentioned there are writing sites out there for almost every taste, if you must use excessive profanity, or vulgar language and sexual depictions in your writings, find somewhere to post it. That is my opinion and I will fight for this, so be warned

Now I'm glad you all care so much about my time and well being that you are giving me an assistant. But before I can agree with the need for the one, like I said before the workload needs to be increased. Right now, I have no problems handling this assignment or any of my others...I went away for my annual vacation and suddenly you all noticed, because this thread was started...granted if it wasn't none of you would have noticed my absence..I logged in while away, made people writers, moved threads, etc, none of which you noticed, but suddenly I need help...hmm.. give me work in the form of contributions and maybe I will need help but until then... I think I got this.

But before I stop for now, I must ask what does an additional moderator mean to you writers? What exactly do you expect from the moderators of this forum to do?

Now what I would like to see happen, is that members/writers stop whining, look thru the forum, look at the stories, offer criticism or praise on short stories written by fellow member no matter how old. Also start writing and collaborating on existing stories.

Instead of griping about how bad things are, how about setting an example and putting a great piece of work. Some of you are experienced in putting up successfull writing here, do it again. Writers are quite a finicky bunch, we make excuses for all the reasons why we think we can't write, we blame the light, the noise, the weather, the kids, the way a page looks, the ink that flows from our pens, but deep down we know it us, we the individual writer that needs to get over all the little trivial things that we cling to as excuses and just start writing.

Carry on with the brainstorming

K.I.S.S.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
(Someone should have tapped my shoulder about this sooner

)

Well hey, I don't mind. This is just early work, I'm still floating nascent ideas, and I'm trying to reduce the amount of bruising your shoulder is getting from so many people tapping on it.

Rather than subforums, tags -- ala ATSNN -- may well be the way to go if the Overlord thinks it best.

Despite my love for subforums, I must confess that it is already all too easy to miss the Short Stories subforum when I'm browsing CF.

Perhaps we can make thread tags more user-friendly with display templates similar to what ATSNN uses, or something like that. I'm ignorant of how that stuff actually works behind the scenes, but if it's more feasible, maybe that's a better direction.

Anything which helps us to organize the work and distinguish it from writing-related chit-chat (which we also need in the writers forum) will be a step in the right direction.

I'm just briefly popping in and out tonight, but I'm glad to finally be giving CF some attention.

Thanks to SO and WW for sharing your comments here! I look forward to more as things develop and your time permits.

Meanwhile, I encourage any and all writers who may be following the process to comment as you see fit.

But before I stop for now, I must ask what does an additional moderator mean to you writers? What exactly do you expect from the moderators of this forum to do?

Now what I would like to see happen, is that members/writers stop whining, look thru the forum, look at the stories, offer criticism or praise on short stories written by fellow member no matter how old. Also start writing and collaborating on existing stories.

Firstly, WW...I made the comment to lighten the restrictions a little, particularly since I am a little heavy-handed with the gore. Also, I did not say "I endorse excessive profanity", I said maybe we should lighten that particular condition, particularly since some situations warrant profanity.

What I would look for with more moderators would be mostly quality control. I disagree with you, WW, on the tight controls of grammar and spelling. There are plenty of word processors out there, available for free, that include a spell checker.

No excuse.

I too have been bad writers improve, but we must draw the line SOMEWHERE as to what is and isn't acceptable content. If I don't see capital letters and commas, I get worried. And angry.

Finally, WW, I disagree with your last point. I DISCOURAGE writers from posting ANY material to the ATS forums until we have basic, proper ammenities. Read the stories, U2U advice or criticism, yes. Post new material? No. I refuse, for one, as a protest. I have written and posted approximately fifty thousand words of material on another writing site since the beginning of the month. On JUST that one site, over ONE HUNDRED reviews. Over FIVE THOUSAND views. All of it clear, concise, and neatly ordered.

So, let me ask you this, writers of ATS- is there a reason you should do without basic writing functions, like the ability to edit your own stories, or actually receive criticism without ruining the flow of your story? Is there a reason you should be neglected by the members of this forum?

I can't think of one. Can you?

DE

"ATS Fiction", fiction.abovetopsecret.com (fiction @ ats), ATW (above top writers), all seem to be more interesting names that compliment the core site.

How about Creative Writing @ ATS.com, or some such?


[edit on 2005/7/4 by GradyPhilpott]

Finally, WW, I disagree with your last point. I DISCOURAGE writers from posting ANY material to the ATS forums until we have basic, proper ammenities. Read the stories, U2U advice or criticism, yes. Post new material? No. I refuse, for one, as a protest. I have written and posted approximately fifty thousand words of material on another writing site since the beginning of the month. On JUST that one site, over ONE HUNDRED reviews. Over FIVE THOUSAND views. All of it clear, concise, and neatly ordered.

I am amazed.. utterly amazed.
While you can disagree with me all you want, discouraging others from writing to the forum, because it doesn't have all the little subsections and "neatly organized" format you want is sort of ridiculous imo.

What the use of wanting change if you're not willing to work for it and thru it. What is the use of even having Writing Contest for July if no one wants to participate because the forum isn't named right or doesn't have all the bells and whistles you want.

As for disagreeing with me in regards to the use of gore/profanity etc, I ask to you to refer to the Terms and Conditions of the site. Until SimonGray and Admin changes those conditions. I will interpret them as they are and fight against laxing these policies. Perhaps on a sister site, if that is the route we end up going, the terms and conditions can be different, but until then

4.) You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content. Images of or links to gratuitous gore and/or mutilation are strictly forbidden. This applies to material posted to collaborative fiction and member short story forums. You will also not select usernames that contain profanity.

I have written and posted approximately fifty thousand words of material on another writing site since the beginning of the month.

ATS is a collaborative online community with a far different focus than "writing sites". The "collaborative fiction" section was originally devised as an interesting experiment to support some member's desires of expression. Because of our core code base, our ability to mimic the features and perks of sites designed for writers will be limited at best.

Why yell at someone trying to sort things out instead of presenting your thoughts for improvement to someone who might be able to do something (me)?

WW, having the capacity to edit your work isn't what I'd consider a 'bell and whistle'. Having the ability to receive positive, constructive criticism without ruining the flow of the story isn't a 'bell or whistle'. As far as subforums go, I rather enjoy not having to root through nine pages of threadlist looking for my stories.

This isn't a matter of naming, or toughing it out. At ATS, we don't even have the basic tools needed to write. Taken a look at the ATS story lately? All thems funny question marks can't be editted out, because I don't have that ability. There's a lot of stories like that, now. Really, is that fair to those writers who have posted all kinds of great work only to have it totally screwed up? That's some incentive to write, you know.

SO, I've been posting about the matter for three pages. I think I've made myself fairly clear. I don't expect ATS to become another Zoetrope, but c'mon. Writers don't even have the ability to edit their own work. That's just ridiculous. I don't know if some things -particularly a review system - can be implemented due to the code base. I don't know what the code limits are. I think most of my other suggestions- a set structure and regulations, quality control, and the ability to edit our work- aren't too much to ask. Not spending half an hour looking for your own threads would be a bonus. Having other members of ATS actually remember we exist, also a bonus. THOSE are my main concerns- the ability to edit, review and feedback, quality control.

I don't think that what I'm asking for is unreasonable. And, like I said, why should the writers of ATS go without the basics?

DE

Don't assume that because a thread exists, an Admin has seen it. It's impossible for any one person responsible for ATS (Simon, WOS, me, etc.) to be aware of every thread.

There has long been an exception in the code for the CF forum's post edit limitations... I was unaware that it wasn't working. Can someone attempt an edit and let me know what error code you receive?

Much better, SO. I've got some serious editting to do. [EDIT] A lot fo my older stories lack the option to be editted. It is simply 'quote'. I believe that The Short Story section is the one without the ability to be editted, which is also quite a problem]

I apologize for assuming that you'd have seen the thread- I merely thought that since our representative was in on it, he would have informed some higher power of the goings on.

DE

[edit on 5-7-2005 by DeusEx]

Kindred Souls

DE, if it's any comfort, your posts read almost exactly like my posts in the Council forum so far. I consider us kindred souls.

If nothing else, the fact that I am still here is positive proof of just how incredibly patient, tolerant and forgiving the ATS staff is.

Don't worry. It's going to be okay.

ATS is a conspiracy community, and that's what I come here for. I do most of my creative writing on another site, and I actually prefer keeping them separate. Everything I have shared in this forum, I originally developed and posted on that other site, including the musical stuff.

That said, I agree wholeheartedly with you that what is now CF can be something more and better than what it is. That's also true of ATS as a whole.

Our contributions as creative writers can become a part of the developing ATS Community. There is a place for us in it, and, over time, we will fashion that place to our liking.

We as members are, hands down, far more responsible for the quality of this site's content than the staff. We outnumber them by a huge margin, and post way more than they do.

Now the staff are giving us an opportunity to actively participate in the future design of ATS, and despite my original cynicism and dramatic orations in Council, I am coming to see how this is going to work, and I'm very excited about what this means.

It's big.

We ATSers are a proud people. Individuals, pioneers, loners, rebels.

We are the street preachers of the Information Superhighway.

It's going to take time, effort and patience to build the new ATS, but build it we will, and my confidence that we will succeed increases with each passing day.

Why? Because we are all kindred souls.