WAR: Bush Urges Congress To Renew Patriot Act

Here are a few references for you:

www.eursoc.com...

www.command-post.org...

www.cbsnews.com...

www.pbs.org...

news.bbc.co.uk...

www.command-post.org...

...and for those who are sure that terrorist threats are overstated this link contains a chronology of attacks by radical Islamic organizations:

strategypage.com...

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CTO,
A little history,
Ever heard of Watergate? 'Deep Throat', etc?

This domestic invasion of personal freedoms will be used for the only thing it can be, political blackmail and treachery.

If you want to intercept terrorists you have to get people out working where the terrorists are. Pakistan, the middle East and now due to the Bush war in Iraq. First and foremost you need patriotic people who speak foreign languages. I cannot stress patriotic enough. Right now the FBI has interpreters that cheered 911, and fired Sibel Edmonds who was a patriot and brought it to the FBI's attention.

The FBI has a bureaurcratic turf mind set.

Even 911 didn't change that!

The job of the FBI should be to protect the American people and prevent crime.
What it actually does is try to win is Glittering headlines and bigger budgets, instead of doing the basic less-glamorous jobs that don't garner attention, but keep the American people safe. The American people are partly to blame. We only see the glittering headlines and forget to pay for things when we aren't being hit over the head with them. Look at what has happened with the FDA. The American people [through their represenatives] didn't want to pay for it and now it has become a puppet of the Pharmaceutical industry, because they are paying the bills.

You don't pay the piper you don't hear the tune you want to.
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[edit on 11-6-2005 by slank]

OK... I'm sorry but I was unable to follow most of your post...

If you actually believe that we are responsible for the attacks against this country I don't see any possible place for us to discuss this issue... The terrorists are responsible for attacking the United States, plain and simple... Making excuses for them is an unforgivable act...

Perhaps you've spent a bit too much time reading the rantings of Ward Churchill...

By the way... what does the pharmaceutical industry have to do with the war on terror???

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I didn't say they were the instigators of 911 [you seem to be saying that],

But in point of fact the FBI had/has interpreters that cheered the 911 attack.

Washington can not be bothered to do the most fundamental job of a nation, guarding its borders.

The whitehouse commited a crime revealing a covert CIA agents name for politics.

What business does this government, that seems to have its head up its something, have invading personal privacy?

edit: add link
FBI Cheers 911

[edit on 11-6-2005 by slank]

Wow this is getting Trippy! The stuff that is going down now - It feels like I am living in a Movie! Has anyone here seen "The Seige" & "Enemy of the State" - if not I highly reccomend watching these films! It is DEF quite Remarkable that this stuff was shot in 1998 (the Film Makers must have been experiencing ESP)! What is next - declaring "Marshall Law"?

Don't you guys see that this is the most "Slippery" of the "Slippery Slopes"?! Just who is a "Terrorist" anyway? Let me tell you - anyone who the Government SAYS is a Terrorist is a Terrorist! Do you realize that American Citizen Protesters at the Republican National Convention in NYC were recently called
"Domestic Terrorists" by these people? I geuss the next step would be to call all "Liberals", "Democrats" &
"Non-Christians" = Unpatriotic Terrorists! What ever happened to Rule of Law & Evidence? These are DEF FACIST Tactics that our Corporate Government is using!

CTO - we already have a Theocracy - only it is a Christian Theocracy! Are you willing to call
*CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISTS* who do Crazy things (i.e. Koresh & McVeigh) Terrorists as well?

CTO - what are the root causes of Terrorist behaviour - are you ready to look at yourself in the Mirror & answer this question Honestly or would you rather go on blaming "Islam".

[edit on 11-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Seraphim, let me ask you a question... what do you believe are the root causes of terrorism? Are you one of the folks that believe that the U.S. brought the attacks of 9/11 on itself?

Islam itself is not to blame but radical Islamist are... If you can't see that further discuss is pointless...

Can you provide one credible source for your assertion that protesters at the Republican convention were considered terrorists under the Patriot Act??? I suspect that's one challenge that will go unanswered...

Have you bothered to read the Patriot Act? I have... let me offer some insight regarding domestic terrorism...

The act defines 'domestic terrorism' as activities that involve acts that are dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States; appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping and occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

This definition is contained in section 802 of the act. Take a look yourself...

I don't see protesters listed anywhere in there, do you?

You can conjecture all you want about who or what may some day be defined as a terrorist or a terrorist act but I'll take my chances on this one...

I'd prefer that law enforcement and the intelligence community be given the tools to fight terrorism rather than be hamstrung by people who have little better to do that dream up fanciful potential abuses...

Kinda slightly off topic but have you all noticed the lack of terror alerts since the election? A bit suspicious if you ask me.

Perhaps not...

The DHS has done some revision in the recent past regarding alerts... Most alerts are now regionalized but warnings are still passed along...

This is taken from the DHS web site:

"Raising the threat condition has economic, physical, and psychological effects on the nation; so, the Homeland Security Advisory System can place specific geographic regions or industry sectors on a higher alert status than other regions or industries, based on specific threat information."

www.dhs.gov...

You also might want to take a look at this site:

www.nationalterroralert.com...

Originally posted by CTO

Islam itself is not to blame but radical Islamist are... If you can't see that further discuss is pointless...

Ahh. Let me see if I've got this right. Radical Islamists are terrorists - to be destroyed by fundamentalist Christians, and their business assets distributed amongst a chosen few corporations, and the world made safe by the new inquisition. With Christian nukes and technically legal torture. Does that about sum it up?

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Quote: "what do you believe are the root causes of Terrorism?"

I am quite glad that you asked: Poverty, Repression, Illiteracy, Ignorance, Incorrect Interpretation of Religion, Gang Mentality - the list goes on for a while! Do you honestly think that the U.S.A. is Immune from these Catalysts? We certainly have grown plenty of Actual Domestic Terrorists to date!

Quote: "Are you one of the folks that believe that the U.S. brought the attacks of 9/11 on itself?"

Let me just state that I believe in Karma! I have now seen about 10 NEWLY Purchased "Hummer" Tanks being driven around in my neighborhood! I guess that making 10 M.P.G. is "COOL" like it shows in the Commercials! If 9/11 didn't hammer the point through to them then I don't know what will! I have even seen some "Hummers" with "Support the Troops" Bumper Stickers on them - just how are they supporting the Troops - by sending their U.S. Dollars over & into the Hands of our Saudi Arabian Terrorist Enemies? Can you say Hypocrisy?

Quote: "Islam itself is not to blame but Radical Islamist are... If you can't see that further discuss is pointless..."

I am not Fan of Radical Islam my friend - it is quite Backwards & Useless in this 21st Century World in which we live! But here is the thing -
*ALL EXTREMIST RADICAL FUNDAMENTALIST* Religions & Followers are Detrimental to Civilization & Society as a whole!

It is time to stop just signaling out "Islam". Islam is a Young Religion & would not Exist without the Existence of Judaism! A big problem in Christianity is Improper interpretation of the Old Testament (Judaism) which leads Nut Jobs to think that it is "OK" to KILL Homosexuals & BLOW UP Abortion Clinics! Unfortunately there are still Plenty of Fanatic people of the Judaic Religion in this World - they Kill people all the time - would you care to rag on them as Terrorists as well or shall the Stereotyping continue?!

What ever happened to "Thou Shall not Kill" - What ever happened to REASON?!

[edit on 12-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 12-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by CTO

Islam itself is not to blame but radical Islamist are... If you can't see that further discuss is pointless...

Ahh. Let me see if I've got this right. Radical Islamists are terrorists - to be destroyed by fundamentalist Christians, and their business assets distributed amongst a chosen few corporations, and the world made safe by the new inquisition. With Christian nukes and technically legal torture. Does that about sum it up?

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Nope... not all radical Islamist are terrorists. I suspect that most radical Islamists don't venture far enough from home to cause anyone else harm... Terrorists take many shapes... certainly Timothy McVeigh is a terrorist, Lee Boyd Malvo and John Allen Muhammad are terrorists, extreme right-wing Christians who bomb abortion clinics are terrorists... Get my drift?

Terrorists, by any shape, need to be stopped... Their only agenda is to spread fear by killing innocents... plain and simple... They don't fight man to man on a field of battle... They skulk about in the shadows, dressed as civilians to target defenseless individuals... Do you consider these people to be heroes? I consider them scum...

Originally posted by CTO
Have you bothered to read the Patriot Act? I have... let me offer some insight regarding domestic terrorism...

The act defines 'domestic terrorism' as activities that involve acts that are dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States; appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping and occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

This definition is contained in section 802 of the act. Take a look yourself...

I don't see protesters listed anywhere in there, do you?

I see protesters listed right there. What else are you doing in a protest but attempting to coerce the civilians or the government to your point of view?

Co·erce
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): co·erced; co·erc·ing
Etymology: Latin coercEre, from co- + arcEre to shut up, enclose -- more at ARK

1 : to restrain or dominate by force
2 : to compel to an act or choice
3 : to bring about by force or threat

Here's a good analysis of the patriot act

You conveniently forgot to emphasize this:

activities that involve acts that are dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States

Protesters, unless engaging in violent acts, are not in violation of the criminal laws of the United States...

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Im sure the British crown saw the American colonists as terrorists when they dumped tea into the ocean.

It is a line of subjective definition that says who is and who is not a terrorist.

Are Chechnyan rebels terrorists or freedom fighters?

Is the forcing of religious edicts into law through fear & intimidation, moral leadership or terrorism?

Before you size the shoe, remember it may end up on the other foot.

[edit on 12-6-2005 by slank]

Originally posted by slank
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Im sure the British crown saw the American colonists as terrorists when they dumped tea into the ocean.

It is a line of subjective definition that says who is and who is not a terrorist.

Are Chechnyan rebels terrorists or freedom fighters?

Is the forcing of religious edicts into law through fear & intimidation, moral leadership or terrorism?

Before you size the shoe, remember it may end up on the other foot.


[edit on 12-6-2005 by slank]

I doubt the British crown saw the colonists as terrorist... a threat yes... terrorists, no; but neither of us will ever know, will we?

FORCING religion on anyone through FEAR and INTIMIDATION is terror, yes... If your point is that the United States government is forcing religion on peoples I would love to see a good reference...

How are the Chechen rebels going about attempting to achieve an end? Blacking out a city sounds like terrorist tactics to me... Derailing a train loaded with civilians sounds like terror to me...

This is a quote from an article which discusses some of the activities of the Chechens..

"Although the violence has continued, Basayev has kept a low profile since the death in March of fellow guerrilla leader Aslan Maskhadov. In his letter he vowed the fight would go on.

"As was promised by us after the craven murder of the ex-president of Chechnya (Zelimkhan) Yandarbiyev in 2004, we intend wherever possible to bomb, explode, hunt, burn down, and cause fires and explosions of household gas all over Russia."

today.reuters.co.uk...

-or-

/al3x2

Yeah... I'd have to say that sounds like terror tactics...

Quote: "How are the Chechen rebels going about attempting to achieve an end... Blacking out a city sounds like Terrorist tactics to me... Derailing a train loaded with civilians sounds like Terror to me..."

Killing a School Full of Innocent Children (Happened in Russia not to long ago - plus there was that Theater Incident in Moscow a while back) & Rigging it with Explosives is Certainly a Terrorist action!

Remember the question is not whether or not Terrorism Exists - it Obviously does! What we are doing now is what we should have done in the First Place right after 9/11 - *CAREFULLY Defining* what Terrorism is (and is NOT - i.e. Political Speech is NOT Terrorism) & how we are to deal with it in the U.S.A. & Globally (without taking away the Rights & Freedoms of U.S. Citizens in good standing) - Logistically/Practically & Legally!


[edit on 12-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

I think its ironic that in most criminal cases that when you train and fund someone and they use that training and funding to commit a crime that you become an accessory to the crime. Does a criminal have a right to try and convict his accomplice? This is what we want to do with Saddam and to an extent bin Laden.

And this Patriot Act nonse. I wrote my senator today and told him to support the U.S. and the constitution and vote no to the patriot act.

I'm lucky... I don't have to call my senators... I know how they're going to vote... FOR the extension of the Patriot Act...

[edit on 13-6-2005 by CTO]