U.S. Muslims desecrate American flag

Originally posted by IBM
Tinkleflower there is better way to criticise the government than flag burning, it is very offensive. Voting for instance is one method. When a person burns a flag he/she is buring all that the country represents, including freedom of speech. It is a shamefull mockery. What good will it accomplish excpet to gather negative attention.

I must disagree. Voting will get you nowhere, as the odds that your vote determines more than a local election are practically 0. At the national level, your are simply voting for tweedle dumb or tweedle dumber - your choices are limited before you ever get to the polls.

Nonvoting strikes fear into them for two reasons. The first is that by voting, you are implicitly agreeing with the legitimacy of the system. Those who don't vote are not stakeholders. The second is that the more people vote, the less likely a third party can win a winner takes all system like the US. These two reasons are why many republics have compulsory voting.

The power hacks in the Republican and Democratic parties are the ones choosing who is allowed into the game for President and the Senate (and the House to a lesser degree).

Protest does get the attention of the law makers, and is much more effective than voting. Burning the flag is a powerfull form of protest. Don't believe it? Look at how much response it has evoked just in this thread.

The flag does not stand for freedom and goodness, it stands for the national government. These are not one in the same. In the US, the national government has become imperialist and aggregiously oppressive compared to its foundation (though perhaps not so much by world standards), and has been accelerating toward fascism since 9/11. Even freedom of speech is under attack.

You don't owe blind allegiance to anyone or anything.

Originally posted by Odium
I always thought burning a U.S. Flag was the only legal way to destroy it? Or at least that was how my friend in the USAF explained it to me and how Manson gets away with in when he is on tour...

Manson doesn't have to get away with it.

He's not committing any crime

(You'd have to ask someone else about flag protocol in that context though, sorry)

Originally posted by WestPoint23
So because it doesn't do anything its ok to burn it?

My point is that it's neither okay or not okay........it's immaterial.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Maybe I should come to your house and take you old grandma picture or you family pictures and burn them, they do nothing so its ok.

A picture, as valuable as it is, really only helps to to remind........since the actual experiences are in my memory, I don't necassarily need the picture, now do I? Burn the flippin piece of paper. Do you think it will change how I feel about my family......do you think that the burning of a piece of paper would change how my family feels about me? Hell.......I'll help you burn them, and then my family and I will go out to dinner and laugh about how dumb that was......maybe even question your intelligence while we're at it.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Burning or desecrating the flag accomplishes only one thing, it shows the world that you're an A Hole with no respect and intelligence.

Careful where you go with this.......no respect, no intelligence? Hah......if you make a conclusion like that based on an action that essentially amounts to one minute out of a lifetime, I will have to question your decision making skills. I live my life with the utmost respect for others, going out of my way to consider the comfort and convenience of others when possible because I understand the value of cooperation and.......hold on.......you might want to take notes........relevance.

A flag is a piece of cloth. It doesn't talk, think, or feel and will not recipricate any respect I give it. Ergo, it is not worth my time. Any values that are associated it as a symbol I already hold within my heart and practice on a day to day basis.....remember....in my first post to this thread I said I would burn the flag if I didn't have anything better to do.


[edit on 13-6-2005 by MemoryShock]

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Burning or desecrating the flag accomplishes only one thing, it shows the world that you're an A Hole with no respect and intelligence.

I kinda agree with you for once... Nothing like an A-Hole deserating a flag huh...

Now, where is that picture of Bush writing on one of them.....

Sorry, WP, but it is just a flag and I know it hurts when you have put so much of yourself into the defense and protection of a symbol, you see that symbol as the very representation of what you hold dear. I get it.

The problem is that it is only a symbol, it is a peice of coloured cotton - and I mean that for all Nations flags. It is nice, and it is good, but it isn't like someone is invading your country.

It is like the Cross to Christian's. It is a symbol, it is used to remind you of something important, but the symbol itself holds no importance.

At least thats I always figured it.

Maybe I should come to your house and take you old grandma picture or you family pictures and burn them, they do nothing so its ok.

Well yeah!!! that's wrong cuz they are burning someone elses stuff....

There's a difference!!! For starters, if you or someone else comes into MY house and burn MY stuff.....you're gonna get shot and or beat the hell up.

Second.....Have you ever heard of someone burning a flag that they stole from someone's house? No, they BUY them. Wasting money yeah...but they bought it, not me.

Third....the statement above list more than just burning flags...larceny is what's going on. That's two different issues.

Let them burn thier own flags....as long as they don't burn MY flags...I don't care.

Ok if you want to see it as a piece of fabric with some colors on it fine. However I see it as more than that, and I will just simply not tolerate flag burning/desecration.

*shakes Westpoint23's hand*

Agree to disagree, then........I respect your opinion, mate.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Ok if you want to see it as a piece of fabric with some colors on it fine. However I see it as more than that, and I will just simply not tolerate flag burning/desecration.

I can understand your feelings completely and for once I am not going to mock a pro-bush, but just say from my heart it hurts when I see people do it as well. I just think what makes our countries great is a willingness to look at the less fortunate people who can not devise a cognizant arguement for their case and are instead forced to demonstrate their ability to make fire....

It just helps me to allow them to have the freedom I have, and think everyone should as well.

I hope that makes my position a little clearer. Or possibly crazier

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Ok if you want to see it as a piece of fabric with some colors on it fine. However I see it as more than that, and I will just simply not tolerate flag burning/desecration.

OK, say you are my neighbor. You see me in my front yard burning the flag. What the hell are you gonna do? Call a cop? It's not against the law. Come over and take me on? You mite not want to do that, as, (besides being a biker and forcefully not tolerating crap of another telling me my business), since someone that burns a flag "ain't all there" in the mindset of your likes, do you really confront this person?

So, with your intoleration of such activity - what would you do?
Or, have you worded yourself wrong - "will not tolerate" is an explicit implication of an action against what you do not tolerate.

Misfit

(Edit = " forcefully")

[edit on 13-6-2005 by Misfit]

63% of those polled oppose flag burning amendment........

A little background noise for the cacophony we're making..........

well, duh. americans flushed a quran down a frickin toilet. what the hell do you expect? i would be pretty pissed too.

So, with your intoleration of such activity - what would you do?
Or, have you worded yourself wrong - "will not tolerate" is an explicit implication of an action against what you do not tolerate.

I would try to educate you why burning the flag is wrong if you don't listen then I’m just going to get the fire extinguisher. If you want to react violently go ahead I but I wont be the one to resort to violence first. Besides if you burned a flag in my neighborhood I’m the least you would have to worry about.

Originally posted by Kitsunegari
well, duh. americans flushed a quran down a frickin toilet. what the hell do you expect? i would be pretty pissed too.

well duh, American Newsweek magazine decided to retract since they say they aint so sure. maybe u should look at the use of water balloons thrown at the Korans as more reliable truth.

As I have said before on the issue of the quoran being flushed, that is one heck of a toilet and plumbing system.
I want one for my own home that way my son could never clog the toilet again!

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
As I have said before on the issue of the quoran being flushed, that is one heck of a toilet and plumbing system.
I want one for my own home that way my son could never clog the toilet again!

LOL, I thought of this also....its physically impossible to flush an intact Koran down a toilet without clogging up the toilet bigtime. I guess people what they want to beleave regardless of the physics involved.

Maximu§

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I would try to educate you why burning the flag is wrong if you don't listen then I’m just going to get the fire extinguisher. If you want to react violently go ahead I but I wont be the one to resort to violence first. Besides if you burned a flag in my neighborhood I’m the least you would have to worry about.

You're going to walk onto a bikers' property and start telling him that what he is doing is wrong (in your world). Uh-huh, you must have one hellacious set of hueves.

Sound like my mother going to tell me all about God and church ........ ugh.

Someone tell me something I don't like on MY property, I tell them to leave. If they do not, I have every right to vacate you from my premisis.

Then you're going to come on to my premisis again with an extenguisher and attempt to defunct my actions? I'de be let go on my own-recognisance within 8 hours (this state). Nothing to me, hell that's nap time.

Man, I don't know how old you are or what your up-bringing or life experiances have been, but you have a LOT to learn about what one does NOT do in another mans territory. There are just some things ya don't do in another persons land, does not matter if they have a barrel full of every religious book and every flag ever made as a bonfire. You stay to your own, or there are consequences you then face. If no living creature is being harmed, and no others's property being harmed, you stay your place.

When I am not breaking the law, I'll be DAMNED if another man gives me #t about my actions.

Gawd I hate the internet, can't get in someones face.

Misfit


[edit on 14-6-2005 by Misfit]

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by Kitsunegari
well, duh. americans flushed a quran down a frickin toilet. what the hell do you expect? i would be pretty pissed too.

well duh, American Newsweek magazine decided to retract since they say they aint so sure. maybe u should look at the use of water balloons thrown at the Korans as more reliable truth.

i guess i should have been more specific. i was referring to the misuse and abuse of the quran in general, sorry. the flushing thing was just the first reported that i heard, and therefore the first that came to mind.

Originally posted by LA_Maximus

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
As I have said before on the issue of the quoran being flushed, that is one heck of a toilet and plumbing system.
I want one for my own home that way my son could never clog the toilet again!

LOL, I thought of this also....its physically impossible to flush an intact Koran down a toilet without clogging up the toilet bigtime. I guess people what they want to beleave regardless of the physics involved.

Maximu§

These two guys know what they are talking about, from experience it seems.

You know what would be cool? Starve the moslems at Gitmo, and then layout slabs of ribs, ham, bacon, and pork barbecue and see if they would eat it.

Actually, if you go by the rules for proper handling of the koran, the prisoners themselves are in violation of those rules.
Check this link out:
Who's Really Abusing the Koran?

All the headlines about "Abuse of the Koran at Gitmo" are absolutely accurate. Brig. Gen. Jay Hood's internal investigation has uncovered some shocking incidents. On at least six occasions, Korans were ripped up. They were urinated on three times, and attempts were made to flush them down the toilet at least three other times.

In an earlier post on this thread, I also included some instructions that muslims are to follow in the proper handling and care of the quran. Unfortunately, by those rules, simply having the quran in their cells is against the rules as they also have their toilet in the same room.