OP/ED: America Bashing: National Sociologism

Originally posted by Majic
When did America “go wrong”, and why?

I would say that America started to go downhill right after the second world war. Yes, pound your chests if you must, it was still a case of Americans joining the party late while others bled and died. I think that's where the invasive foreign policy comes from- the fact that due to America's unwillingness to go to the war when everyone did, millions upon millions died, perhaps needlessly. Since WW2, America's politics have become more and more invasive.

The Cold War antics continue to this day, and I'm not particularly fond of any of the parties involved. America in particular draws my ire, because most of its sins are long forgotten, and probably never heard of. I don't suspect many know how the united states funded Pol Pot, or backed quite a few ugly coups that left the likes of Pinochet in power.

My main issue with American foreign policy is the lack of foresight and common decency displayed. things like "Ooops, maybe we shouldn't have given Saddam WMD's." and "Ooops, maybe we should have followed through on our word so the Afghanis don't hate us for letting them...uhh...die." and my personal favorite "Maybe we shouldn't have flattened so much of Southeast Asia, committed so many atrocities that just about everyone one falls into Soviet pockets when we leave."

America also enjoys stomping on its allies, given the chance. Look at France and Canada. I know Canada receives much less bad press than France, but instead sufers multiple, flagrant violations of trade rules that the Americans wrote up in the first place.

What seals the deal is that most Americans will rationalize away most of these problems, should they realize they exist. A little chest beating solves everything. Many do not realize that many of your nations problems are ones that YOU created.

DE

Last Round On Target

Originally posted by DeusEx
I would say that America started to go downhill right after the second world war.

Ah! Dare I say "bingo"?

I don't want to "walk" over the discussion, but I did want to say that I agree with your assertion that this was the turning point.

It was a turning point for all humanity, really, not just the U.S., but it is gratifying to see that the significance of the moment was not lost in the blur of events after WWII.

More from me on this later.

Source ?
The most effective propaganda systems are supposed to appear as something different than what they are. If cultural managers can get the masses to worship flags, movie stars, sports heroes and other largely meaningless symbols, they can be easily manipulated.

Bertrand Russell said something to the effect that the chasm of difference between the education of the upper class, or ruling class, would be such that the knowledge of the ruling class would be unfathomable to even the most over achieving member of the lower classes, thus ensuring the influence and power of the ruling class.

America is a problem!!!

Yet, so is the rest of the world. By definition of some sort, this is inherent in our existence. With so many people living together and wanting the same things, problems will occur. In that sense, America can probably be called one of the best societies.........there is something for everyone who is willing to work for it. But the ideology that America spreads and propagates is not how the world works. It would be nice if the whole world could, or even our own country, could hold hands and beam at each, satisfied in sharing an equal existence, but while they( Lol, the infamous they) look you in the eye and convince you that is the goal, other things are happening..........

Anyone remember MK-Ultra? A project that was publicized after the fact, where the government used unwitting subjects to perform various chemical and hypnotic experiments to institute rapid-induction techniques to induce a hypnotic state as quickly and as discreetly as possible. Funny, that most of the literature you run into concerns itself with '___', not the main motivation for the project. At any rate, Government Documents were released detailing MK-Ultra and people still ignore the power of hypnosis and it's various subtle intricacies(subliminal suggestions, NLP, colors, sound, "sex sells" etc...). Hell, the government admitted to using people without their consent and without any psychological or physical compensation........they ruined lives and chalked it up as collateral damage. MK-Ultra is only one of the many government projects that came to light and it only came to light twenty years after the fact........how advanced is their reasonings now? What are they doing now? Does anyone here really believe that it's all about peace and freedom and love? People like power, money, and whatever their hearts desire that money can buy.............

And America's benevolant attitude is all over history.........Hiroshima, Vietnam, Korea, the Cold War, the Gulf War, The War on Terror........we have always been at war!!!!! But what about the wars we don't hear about........Corporate armies controlled by DynCorp, amongst others, who occupy foriegn countries(Columbia most notably) and recieve HUGE contracts from the American Government.......
......www.barryyeoman.com........the fact that corporations are subject to different laws than the government allows it to maintain a distinct level of secrecy.....not that the government doesn't have the capacity to maintain secrets and manipulate the type of information allowed for ingestion by the popular masses.

America Bashing?........no probably not from me......though I am aware of the many hypocracies of this nation, I do not hold a piece of land and a commonly held group of laws, however blatantly oppresive, responsible for the problems that I encounter, both personally and percieved. It is what it is and I submit that a person is responsible for the improvemnet of their life given sufficient and relevant information regarding the situations......a lot harder than it sounds, due to the fact that many people are not given an inkling of an idea of how their own mind and bodies work........dreams, a natural life process that everyone experiences, is usually relegated to mysticism and NewAge philosophy.....please. Who started that notion? Someone who knew what an awareness of one's own mind could do...........

But sitting back and appreciating a country of false ideals and hypocritical tendencies is beyond me........I was born a member of the Subtle Fascist States of America, but I don't have to automatically assume that is a good thing............how naive do I want to present myself to be?

[edit on 4-6-2005 by MemoryShock]

Of course America is God. It says so right on the money. Duh.

Ive been accused of being anti-American more times than I can count. For the very same reasons Wecomeinpeace stated. When people cannot distinguish themselves from their government their is a problem. Hypothetically for a moment, what happens if the government becomes corrupt? How do you alert people to the problem? How do you rise up and remove the corrupt government?

How do you do all this if people associate criticism of their government as a personal attack?

Thats the situation I find myself in. Im trying my damnedest to alert Americans as to what their government is carrying out in their name. I do this in the hope that these Americans will retake their government and set about fixing their country.

America has HUGE potential to be the driving force behind good in the World but at this point in time its being driven purely for money. Not even money for Americans, money for a very limited elite.

I can be honest here and say that if the problem with America stayed within America I wouldnt bat an eyelid. Its when I can see America, through its world wide influence, affecting my country of birth (Britain) and my country of residence (Australia) that I take notice and set about remedying the problem.

Saying that the American government doesnt read ATSNN so why bother complaining here is wrong. For starters you can be assured the government will be monitoring this website as a matter of procedure, but also the fact that YOU own the government. You are in charge of what they do. Over the centuries that concept has been dulled immensly, we all think the government is in charge but they are not. Its a charade. If we say "jump", the government should say "how high?" Whinging and complaining to Americans on here is my part to play in overthrowing the corrupt American government and getting America back into the hands of its people. Selfishly on my part because I dont like my own corrupt governments having the worlds only super-power giving them more power and clout than they deserve.

Im with you Americans, and support you, more than you'll ever know.

Antidisestablishmentarianism

subz, your points are truly excellent, and I hope you will take my “rebuttals” in the spirit I intend them, which is not as a dig at you as a member, but rather as a way to inspire some discussion that I think will be very worthwhile.

If we can bear with one another, there is real potential for this dialog to open some entirely new doors on ATS.

I don't have all the answers -- none of us does -- and I'm wrong about all sorts of things. Let's indulge in some back and forth and see what we discover.

By the way, I'm spread a bit thin at the moment, so I hope no one will take unusually long delays between contributions as disinterest on my part.

I opened with “America bashing”, but I expect this discussion to lead us in some unexpected and intriguing directions that may at first seem entirely unrelated.

Prose And Cons

Originally posted by subz
Ive been accused of being anti-American more times than I can count. For the very same reasons Wecomeinpeace stated. When people cannot distinguish themselves from their government their is a problem. Hypothetically for a moment, what happens if the government becomes corrupt? How do you alert people to the problem? How do you rise up and remove the corrupt government?

My advice: Choose your battles carefully.

You may have the best of intentions, but once you establish yourself as “anti-American” -- even if the label is unjustified -- your message will be ignored.

For Americans to hear you, they must listen. For them to listen, they must not think of you as an enemy.

You need not compromise your principles to be heard by Americans, but it is very important to be as clear about them as you can, or risk rejection due to misunderstanding.

We Are The World

Originally posted by subz
How do you do all this if people associate criticism of their government as a personal attack?

The best way I know of is to be very specific in your criticism, and consistent in it.

As noted above, once you are thought of as a “crank”, your words will carry no weight.

Fringe Benefits

Originally posted by subz
Thats the situation I find myself in. Im trying my damnedest to alert Americans as to what their government is carrying out in their name. I do this in the hope that these Americans will retake their government and set about fixing their country.

Ironically, that's the situation many American ATSers find ourselves in. Oftentimes, you are preaching to the choir.

Most Americans on ATS are considered part of the “lunatic fringe” by our countrymen.

Thus we have about as much influence over American politics as street preachers.

Please remember that most American ATSers are as frustrated with the situation as you are.

Potential Difference

Originally posted by subz
America has HUGE potential to be the driving force behind good in the World but at this point in time its being driven purely for money. Not even money for Americans, money for a very limited elite.

America's power is what makes it attractive to those who abuse it.

My country can indeed be a force for good, and in various respects, it is. However, the very same power which makes that possible inevitably ensures that America will do evil.

Power corrupts.

Isolated Instances

Originally posted by subz
I can be honest here and say that if the problem with America stayed within America I wouldnt bat an eyelid. Its when I can see America, through its world wide influence, affecting my country of birth (Britain) and my country of residence (Australia) that I take notice and set about remedying the problem.

At the beginning of both of the Twentieth Century's world wars, America was quite content not to get involved -- at first.

In WWI we accepted an offer we could not refuse, and stepped up to become major players in the world for the first time in our history. Prior to that offer, Americans were more than happy to sit back and let Europeans slaughter one another by the millions.

In WWII, Americans were once again quite happy to let Europeans exterminate one another. American anti-war sentiment was at a fever pitch as Germany systematically swallowed Europe. Many Americans were glad to see Europe “united”, and thought Hitler would finally bring much-needed stability to a violent, troubled continent. Then Pearl harbor was attacked, and it became personal.

Knowing these facts of U.S. history, which do you like better? The Americans who were happy to let the rest of the world go to hell in a handbasket, or the Americans who decided to shove their noses into other people's business -- out of “enlightened self-interest”?

Be honest.

We're From The Government, And We're Here To Help You

Originally posted by subz
Saying that the American government doesnt read ATSNN so why bother complaining here is wrong. For starters you can be assured the government will be monitoring this website as a matter of procedure, but also the fact that YOU own the government.

I invite all U.S. government monitors to feel free to join in on the discussion, identify yourselves and explain how you funnel this information back to Congress and the White House for prompt, effective action.

Don't all reply at once.

As for “ownership of the government”, I covered that rather off-topically in this thread, and encourage anyone who is curious about my opinion on the matter to read the page in question. I also tip my hand somewhat on that page, for those wondering.

If Only You Knew

Originally posted by subz
Im with you Americans, and support you, more than you'll ever know.

Many of us ugly Americans appreciate your efforts more than you'll ever know.

Some of us are hoping to help refine them and, in so doing, help us all move toward a better place.

You are American and therefore you would be more apt to notice and take to heart any negative statement made toward your country or your leader, than you would any other. Now try and place yourself in the position of a Palestinian, Iranian, Syrian, Frenchman, or even Canadian, among others, and understand how each would feel to see ridicule. And speaking as a Canadian, we have our fair share.

American money and military power is spread throughout the world, therefore there would be a higher incidence of attention, negative or positive toward same than any other.

Your news is typically geared to anything pertaining to America, which means that you are sheltered from some of the other international issues not involving your country and would therefore not have a good yardstick by which to measure discontent of other countries by other countries.



[edit on 6/5/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

I for one am not so stupid to believe America to be responsible for the worlds problems. If anyone paid attention in History class, the worlds problems started long before Columbus even sailed to the West Indies. Our problem was simply jumping in late, trying something new, and aggrivating the petty hatreds and jealousies of people immature enough to not have outgrown their silly conflicts. The middle east, the Arab/Jew issue, the Balkans, South Asia, east Asia, ect. These places have been fighting and hating since time began. As far as Im concerned, let them continue their murder, butchery, and genocide. They seem to like it and support it, otherwise, they would not have been doing it for thousands of years. I feel our troops would be better off here at home anyway. No one can be trusted, not even our own government.

America bashing? Could care less. Everyone needs a hobby, everyone needs a villan. If people wish to waste so much focused energy on hating a landmass and a mismatched jumble of people they have never visited nor met, by all means, feel free. I dont waste my precious hatred on faceless entities I only observe on TV, I spend it and direct it towards places, policies, and powers I am familiar with. Everyone needs someone to hate. The world hates America, I hate Saudi Arabia.

If some twat in a land 12 time zones away wishes to hate me because of my place of birth, I am flattered. You dont waste hate or malice toward insignifigant nobodies, I almost feel complimented we are so hated.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
You are American and therefore you would be more apt to notice and take to heart any negative statement made toward your country or your leader, than you would any other.

Great point. I believe I would pay more attention to what neighbors have to say about my house vs what they say about others in the village. I take pride in what I believe I have control over. If someone says something negative, I will get defensive because it's like saying something negative about me.

Take my yard for instance. I work on it, probably not as much as I should, but I make sure and do what is required for upkeep. It's rained quite a bit lately. This sucks. The rain brings dandelions. (I think dandelions are pretty, but they are getting ridiculous). I leave town for three days, THREE DAYS!!! Upon my return, my yard looks like a dandelion farm!!! I dutifully go outside to start the tiring, and never-ending, task of removal. (BTW, I'm already aggravated that it's even gotten to this point). My neighbor walks over, sees what I'm doing (sweating, tired, half crazed - wondering who's really in charge, me or the damn weeds?), you know what he says? "I've been waiting for you to take care of those. The wind blows this way, and I can't take care of my weeds until you take care of yours because it will just re-germinate."

Wow, are you fricken kidding me? Can't you see that I'm working my a** off right now, taking care of these?

Well, this is what I mean by 'defensive'. Of course I get defensive and ticked off. You just walked over to my yard and pointed out its weeds. Can't you see that I'm doing everything I can to manage my yard and put the weeds at bay?

Perhaps I would have been more appreciative had he offered a hand.

oops double post

[edit on 5-6-2005 by SourGrapes]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
America bashing? Could care less. Everyone needs a hobby

I agree, as long as their bashing us they're leaving someone else alone...

Hey I've got thick skin bash away, at least you've got your villan...

Bash away folks...bash all you like, it's not going to change matters in the least...but I'll still get a laugh from it...

As a Canadian I feel a sort of friendship towards the American's. That said, they are acting a little silly. I am sorry, I am not sure how to say that nicely.

First I think it is important to note that what is going on in the US could happen anywhere, and arguably has happened before. The American government is not the peoples, and when the trouble of maintaining the illusion of freedom and democracy while at the same time acheiving whatever goals they had - the war on terror makes it nice and easy to hide things from you.

The problem I see with this is that while a select few of the upper government are making things really uneasy, and if the fit hits the shan, it won't be Bush or his elk that are having bombs dropped on their heads, it will be the poor saps that were bought off with 57 channels(and nothing on) and that lexus in the drive.

Ofcourse, I am a cynic by nature..

You have voted Majic for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Excellent post! The thing I'm upset with and see here is some pretend disconnect between us and our government, like "we don't hate you, we just hate your government" Well I support my government 110%, voted for George Bush and Republicans to the Congress so if you say you hate my government, you're also hating me since i helped vote them into power and agree with most everything they do.

[edit on 6/5/2005 by djohnsto77]

Originally posted by Majic
9/11?...

Unemployment in Europe?...

North Korea?....

Tsunami?....

Why did you leave out Iraq? The anger over the USA's foreign policy and the main reason you created this particular thread started its fever pitch around March 2003 and the subsequent revelations of what takes place in the USA's War on Terror makes for much of the current agitation.

America loves you.

You can't possibly have typed that without laughing you head off at the incredulity of it.

Originally posted by djohnsto77

You have voted Majic for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Excellent post! The thing I'm upset with and see here is some pretend disconnect between us and our government, like "we don't hate you, we just hate your government" Well I support my government 110%, voted for George Bush and Republicans to the Congress so if you say you hate my government, you're also hating me since i helped vote them into power and agree with most everything they do.

[edit on 6/5/2005 by djohnsto77]

Then let me be the first to say that while I do not "hate" anyone, I am disapointed that you can not see the parallels in what America exports in terms of love and happiness and what you see in your streets.

If you go out of your way to hurt people, people will try to hurt you. If you try to oppress people, you will in turn be opressed. If you try to use force to prove you are right, surely you know you are inviting someone to use force to show you you're wrong. In essense, what you put out, you will receive in kind.

I don't want to thread hijack, but...
How is it that you think you, or Bush or anyone, has the right to force anything on anyone? How can you support such actions? Iraq? Bin Ladin? Saddam? Please help me out here see the way you see things.

with warm regards.

Originally posted by Passer By

I don't want to thread hijack, but...
How is it that you think you, or Bush or anyone, has the right to force anything on anyone? How can you support such actions? Iraq? Bin Ladin? Saddam? Please help me out here see the way you see things.

with warm regards.

It's fairly simple. If I pay your bills, do I not have the right to choose which companies you do business? If I'm the cook, do I not get to choose the meal?

Let's say I'm an instructor in self-defense. If I provide tools and teach you to use them, do you have the right to use them against me? If so, do I have a right to take my tools back? How about defend myself? Let's say I taught you all I know (with good intentions of protecting yourself), and you use those tools and instructions to bully others? Do I have the right to step in and take control of your actions? If not, then am I not responsible for your threats and actions (being your teacher and source)? Will I be held responsible?

It's very clear to me, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.


[edit on 5-6-2005 by SourGrapes]

Originally posted by SourGrapes

Originally posted by Passer By

I don't want to thread hijack, but...
How is it that you think you, or Bush or anyone, has the right to force anything on anyone? How can you support such actions? Iraq? Bin Ladin? Saddam? Please help me out here see the way you see things.

with warm regards.

It's fairly simple. If I pay your bills, do I not have the right to choose which companies you do business? If I'm the cook, do I not get to choose the meal?

Let's say I'm an instructor in self-defense. If I provide tools and teach you to use them, do you have the right to use them against me? If so, do I have a right to take my tools back? How about defend myself? Let's say I taught you all I know (with good intentions of protecting yourself), and you use those tools and instructions to bully others? Do I have the right to step in and take control of your actions? If not, then am I not responsible for your threats and actions (being your teacher and source)? Will I be held responsible?

It's very clear to me, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.


[edit on 5-6-2005 by SourGrapes]

I think your second example is a little misleading in so much that the teaching that was going on was never for any defensive position. The US clearly helped people who wanted their way of life protected from people they viewed as invaders, and the means was through terror measures. That was fine and dandy as it was the Russians or the Iranians(depending on which example) that were the targets because they were who was threatening them at the time.

When the US threatened them, the way the US threatens all people, they veiwed the US the same way they viewed the Russians. It isn't something new, these people were always like that - even before, during and after the US helping them. The US knew what it was doing, it just didn't care because of short sighted goals based on the business calander.

The first example I like: "It's fairly simple. If I pay your bills, do I not have the right to choose which companies you do business? If I'm the cook, do I not get to choose the meal? "

- What if it is you that sets up the condition? Consider if you will that all your basic needs could be met reletively easy. The problem with that is that it doesn't drive the economy. So we have mass marketing camplaigns to conveince people that they need more, and more, larger and better, each iteration outdoing the next. Systems however are finite in size, and increased demands means that the system expands, and when you expand you may see it as "paying their bills", but the relatiy is that you are using the size and power of the States to force smaller coutnries into doing things your way, obstensively forcing the rules on them.

In other words, it is like you are paying for their bills, but bills they never had until you came along, and those bills you are paying for them, that they never had, are being paid to you.... So really, what are you giving them other than making them your slaves?

I'll answer this one paragraph at a time. I'm drinking and have a tendency to ramble.

Originally posted by Passer By

I think your second example is a little misleading in so much that the teaching that was going on was never for any defensive position. The US clearly helped people who wanted their way of life protected from people they viewed as invaders, and the means was through terror measures. That was fine and dandy as it was the Russians or the Iranians(depending on which example) that were the targets because they were who was threatening them at the time.

Isn't your statement an oxymoron? Perhaps I misunderstood your 'meaning'. So I will write, in my own words, what I understand from your post. Please let me know if this isn't what you meant.

You say my second example is misleading because we help people with all intentions of using our aid as 'self-defense'; however, we were actually training those people to 'defend' themselves against others who threatened to invade and instill a way of life which was not their own.

Isn't this the same as 'self-defense'? Wether the 'way of life' they are defending is right is purely perspective. I'd rather argue facts.

[edit on 5-6-2005 by SourGrapes]

Originally posted by SourGrapes
I'll answer this one paragraph at a time. I'm drinking and am trying not to ramble.

Originally posted by Passer By

I think your second example is a little misleading in so much that the teaching that was going on was never for any defensive position. The US clearly helped people who wanted their way of life protected from people they viewed as invaders, and the means was through terror measures. That was fine and dandy as it was the Russians or the Iranians(depending on which example) that were the targets because they were who was threatening them at the time.

Isn't your statement an oxymoron? Perhaps I misunderstood your 'meaning'. So I will write, in my own words, what I understand from your post. Please let me know if this isn't what you meant.

You say my second example is misleading because we help people with all intentions of using our aid as 'self-defense'; however, we were actually training those people to 'defend' themselves against others who threatened to invade and instill a way of life which was not their own.

Isn't this the same as 'self-defense'? Wether the 'way of life' they are defending is right is purely perspective. I'd rather argue facts.

It is probably me. I have a hard time explaining things.

There are ways of defending yourself through purely passive, peaceful means. There are other ways of defending yourself through violent actions. One is right, one is wrong. When you chose to train people to be violent, you aren't "helping" anything. You are putting a weapon in the hands of a child.

When the US was doing what it was doing, it wasn't doing it out of a sense of altrueism, or justice. They were looking for soliders for the american army that aren't american. Or in another way, they were looking for violent, vicious people to go out there and kill the American enemy, who at the time was their enemy as well. That itself isn't a begining to anything, merely just another peice of evidence of American agression on forign soil.

Does that make sense? One way you actually help the people, in another you create a madman.

Originally posted by Majic
Antidisestablishmentarianism

subz, your points are truly excellent, and I hope you will take my “rebuttals” in the spirit I intend them, which is not as a dig at you as a member, but rather as a way to inspire some discussion that I think will be very worthwhile.

Dig away, Im more than receptive to rationalized, logical and polite disagreement with my posts

Originally posted by Majic
If we can bear with one another, there is real potential for this dialog to open some entirely new doors on ATS.

Now you've pricked my interest.

Originally posted by Majic
My advice: Choose your battles carefully.

You may have the best of intentions, but once you establish yourself as “anti-American” -- even if the label is unjustified -- your message will be ignored.

I think its a little too late for that and the die hards that oppose me at every turn are not my intended audience. The wavering neophytes who first come to these boards are my target audience. Arguing against die hard republicans is merely for my masochistic enjoyment. I know I have absolutely zero chance of changing their minds but I enjoy proving them wrong and I think fighting ignorance is a virtue

Originally posted by Majic
For Americans to hear you, they must listen. For them to listen, they must not think of you as an enemy.

You need not compromise your principles to be heard by Americans, but it is very important to be as clear about them as you can, or risk rejection due to misunderstanding.

Well looking back at how information and propaganda wars are usually fought on a governmental level I'd say that flooding an audience with your beliefs works quite well. I dont have the luxury of picking my battles because my voice isnt widely heard.

Much like the witty one liner coming from the wallflower at the prom is seldom heard from any one. Meanwhile the drunken hooligan streaking across the quad is noticed by everyone. Not everyone will agree with his rantings but the tradeoff of being heard and believed by a fraction of them is greater.

Originally posted by Majic
Ironically, that's the situation many American ATSers find ourselves in. Oftentimes, you are preaching to the choir.

Most Americans on ATS are considered part of the “lunatic fringe” by our countrymen.

Thus we have about as much influence over American politics as street preachers.

That fact and irony isnt lost on me Majic. What I tend to see in the rather substantial ATSNN audience though is a more than usually receptive and learned audience than the general public. An audience that does consist of a rather large portion of people who still believe everything their government tells them. I have picked my battle quite carefully to tell you truth. I've tried selling my wares on other boards that have a large audience only to be told that international events are boring or that politics are dull. Here I have access to a decent sized audience that are open minded enough to entertain the notion that I could be right.

Originally posted by Majic
Please remember that most American ATSers are as frustrated with the situation as you are.

I disagree there. There are plenty of people here who still gobble up all their government tells you. There are even those who espouse to protect their governments propaganda. There is a battle here on ATSNN that can be fought and even won and I am taking it up.

Originally posted by Majic
At the beginning of both of the Twentieth Century's world wars, America was quite content not to get involved -- at first.

In WWI we accepted an offer we could not refuse, and stepped up to become major players in the world for the first time in our history. Prior to that offer, Americans were more than happy to sit back and let Europeans slaughter one another by the millions.

In WWII, Americans were once again quite happy to let Europeans exterminate one another. American anti-war sentiment was at a fever pitch as Germany systematically swallowed Europe. Many Americans were glad to see Europe “united”, and thought Hitler would finally bring much-needed stability to a violent, troubled continent. Then Pearl harbor was attacked, and it became personal.

Knowing these facts of U.S. history, which do you like better? The Americans who were happy to let the rest of the world go to hell in a handbasket, or the Americans who decided to shove their noses into other people's business -- out of “enlightened self-interest”?

Be honest.

Im a self-styled scholar of WW2 and all its finery. Im well aware of the point you are making here. Honestly, I do not categorically begrudge American intervention any where. Its the substance and nature of the intervention that lately I have cause for alarm.

America's inclusion in WW2 was necessary and I will love the Americans who fought and died in it until the very day that I die. My country was clinging for its survival against a superior army and would of fallen eventually had not the Americans entered the War. There are clear cases of when military intervention is appropriate, there are clear cases when isolationism must end. Knowing when these cases arise is the task we entrust our politicans with.

Originally posted by Majic
I invite all U.S. government monitors to feel free to join in on the discussion, identify yourselves and explain how you funnel this information back to Congress and the White House for prompt, effective action.

Don't all reply at once.

Im under no illusions that they'll act on what they read merely stating that they are aware of these kind of discussions and I only hope it sends a shiver down their collective spines.

Originally posted by Majic
Many of us ugly Americans appreciate your efforts more than you'll ever know.

Some of us are hoping to help refine them and, in so doing, help us all move toward a better place.

Im all for refinement, im not arrogant enough to believe I have all the answers and that my methods are perfect. I welcome the constructive criticism from you

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Excellent post! The thing I'm upset with and see here is some pretend disconnect between us and our government, like "we don't hate you, we just hate your government" Well I support my government 110%, voted for George Bush and Republicans to the Congress so if you say you hate my government, you're also hating me since i helped vote them into power and agree with most everything they do.

djohnsto77, to paraphrase your President: you're either part of the problem or you're part of the solution. If you support your government "110%" how can you possibly respond if your government is corrupt? If you cant even entertain the notion that your government is fallable what hope have you got of improving it? Zero

Your blind allegiance to your government scares me. I dont know how you can say what you said. How can you implicitly trust some one you have never met and that doesnt know you? Your fealty here, whilst adimirable in any other situation, is part of the problem.

I dont hate you but you and the likes of Muaddib worry me. You're obviously intelligent and opinionated people but you have this blind allegiance to Bush that boggles my mind.