Is the Rapture even real.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Jesus sacrifice in our place removes our sin. Faith in that fact saves us. The Holy Spirit convicts a person of their need for Christ.

Jesus Christ saves us. Period. There is nothing more we can do to make a perfect work any better than it already is.

For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
(Matthew 18:11)

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
(Romans 5:10)

His grace saves us--not our faith.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
(Ephesians 2:5)

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
(James 2:14)

Originally posted by lightseeker
Well, that was not my post you are referring to, although, I agree with it.

My bad, I apologize--I wasn't paying attention as close as I should have.

Also, if the Christ's work on the cross was sufficient to save everybody and ensure eternal life with God, why did He need to die at all? If God wanted to pardon all of mankind from sin, don't you think He is powerful enough to just do it Himself, without having to see His only begotten Son humiliated, cursed and crucified?

If Christ's death and resurrection was sufficient to "save" all of mankind, then, why did He not take everyone with Him when He asended to Heaven. Why send the Holy Spirit to a world that had already been redeemed.?

Who are you to inquire of God's intentions or the work He does toward His plan? Who am I?

Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
(Isaiah 45:9)

If the bible says that Christ's grace was sufficient, who are we not to believe it?

Paul says Christ said this to Him:

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Corinthians 12:9

Do we discredit Paul as a deceiver? Was there guile in Paul?

You took that segment of my quote out of context; what I said is it is not sufficient to just believe in Jesus because Satan and his demon also believe, and tremble. Of course, the implication is that it is not sufficient to believe in His existence or that He was an actual person; salvation only comes by believing in Him as the One who delivered you from sin and Whom you are trusting for your deliverence from eternal death in hell.

No, actually I did understand exactly what you meant.

Do you not believe God can do as He wills? And that what He's said, He will do?

He said much more that is important--stuff we should believe. If you believe the bible then every word that is attributed to Christ, should be as a precious pearl out of the Almighty Living God's treasurehouse! Christ spoke as the Father willed. These are words from God--the Self-existent!

Are they to be among the "Elect"of God on the day He comes back because He died for them to.?

Christ didn't die only for the elect--the lost sheep of Israel--which will be His kings and priests to the nations! He died for them and for the nations, too! All men. Elect is not an indicator of one's status of salvation--we are all already saved. But not all believe. Yet all will repent, come to the full knowledge of God's power and grace, and all will glory His name in the end. Every knee shall bow and proclaim Him LORD of Lords and The Almighty Savior of both Israel and the gentiles!

Sure, probably the biggest new insight I've gained is just how active Jesus Christ was in Old testament prophecy and history. I always have known since shortly after becoming a Christian, that Jesus' birth, death and resurrection were prophesied inthe Old Testament; but hadn't dug far enough into the Old Testament itself to see that Jesus, or The Son was showing up in Old testament times and adding to the overall thread of redemption found there.

Well, keep digging! What you will find is a treasure to outshine all other treasures! The OT is just as much about Christ as the NT is--even more so.

See, the Jews have the OT and do not acknowledge the NT. The Catholic church, and by extension, all of christianity, do acknowledge the OT--but studies are not equally based in both testaments, and often instruct in a manner that makes the OT seem like another world unrelated to current events in God's kingdom.

Neither one is correct, and just like science vs. religion, church vs. state, creation vs. evolution, et al.--they are both two halves of the same coin--in this case the coin is pure gold.

The bible isn't about Jews, or christians--it is about Israel. Not the Israel in the news, the piece of land--but about God's elect. And it is also about the whole rest of the world. Known as 'gentiles' or 'nations'. Gentile does not mean 'not a Jew'. Gentile, properly defined, means 'one who does not worship the True and Living God.'

In Revelation, the beast is the Jewish nation--only those who do not recognize the Christ as Messiah, though--and they are represented by a 'beast' (men are 'beasts' in prophesy) with 10 heads--the 10 tribes that left with idolatrous Jeroboam. 1Kings chapter 11.

The two horns, lamb, speaks like a dragon, --that one represents the christian religious nation as formally begun under Constantine. The two horns represent two kingdoms in that nation--Catholic and protestant. The mouth of the dragon is self explanatory.

The elect/saints are the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel--the remnant God saved in order to glorify Him. So the elect are Israel. A very real and physical nation, although at this time the gathering is not begun in a physical manner. But it is happening spiritually and it will manifest at some point, and I say the last part only because that is what we are told and I believe it.

The whore of babylon is the general world population, excluding the elect--who place material things before spiritual. This is largely the whole world, and so if you think about how few elect there will be based on that qualification, and remember that the elect are God's servants, His slaves, that He predestined for His purpose as prophets, apostles. etc... and as such must stay in the fray and turmoil of the world until the end because they have work to do! Not so they can get anything of their own power, but solely to glorify God. He doesn't need them to save anyone for Him--just witness His Glory with deed first then word also in the form of the gospel message: Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God and He has saved the world as it was promised on the day of exile from the garden. God just loves so much that He allows each and everyone of us to speak as witness in our existence down here in the world. God sent Christ not for the sole purpose of just dying so we could live as ungrateful spoiled children for the rest of time and beyond--He has a much greater purpose, in the saving of the world--that Israel, the still mostly scattered nation of God in the world, has been created and prepared for that very purpose, that has to do with every soul that ever lived. Without that greater purpose (to save all men) there would be no purpose for Israel, and without such, they would not exist.

And these are the ones that the world hates and kills--God's messengers in various times and places, a beacon to be His lighthouses in the dark for all who dwell there.


That is the reason that Paul and John's, and Christ's, too--why their prophesies are poorly understood and misshapen by religion into things such as the rapture and the 7 year tribulation still to come, supposedly--because the subtle yet crucial differences between the Jews, christians, and the LORD's Israel are poorly understood by most bible readers and/or church goers.

Same thing goes for the OT. These are the 'strong delusion' that cause so many to believe a lie. The time isn't coming for it to occur, but rather it is already time for us all to see.


[edit on 7/30/2005 by queenannie38]

Originally posted by queenannie38


Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

(Ephesians 2:5)

Continue reading Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

Our faith comes from God also.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Every knee shall bow and proclaim Him LORD of Lords and The Almighty Savior of both Israel and the gentiles!

This means that even those who reject Christ and are dead are still faced with the fact that Jesus is Lord. Even though in this life they chose to live without God and believe he wasn't real, when they die and their eternity begins without Him they will know that He is God.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38
Every knee shall bow and proclaim Him LORD of Lords and The Almighty Savior of both Israel and the gentiles!

This means that even those who reject Christ and are dead are still faced with the fact that Jesus is Lord. Even though in this life they chose to live without God and believe he wasn't real, when they die and their eternity begins without Him they will know that He is God.

Do you have a verse to back that up with?

Because you're either dead or alive. If you're alive, then it must be in Christ--that's the only way at that time. And if you're not alive, you're dead, and in the grave, the grave being, according to Ecclesiastes, a place of total darkness and total unknowing-ness. There is no praising of God or even any knowledge of Him in the grave.

As well:

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This pretty much covers all, and there is definitely a difference between praising God in glory and what you described.

There's a lot of holes in the theory of rapture, tribulation for christianity, etc. It just doesn't add up if you include all of God's word. You can't just put part of it to the test.

you gave the verse yourself


As for the final destination. . .

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Who else is there? Satan, the false prophet, death, hades, ....

So it appears that death will goto heaven too with all those 'bad' people?

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38


Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

(Ephesians 2:5)

Continue reading Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

Our faith comes from God also.

That's true--but that faith God gives us is not what saves us. Christ saves us--the faith that He had in the promise from the Father that He would raise Him up on the third day--that faith had a lot more to do with your salvation than the faith that God gave you to have in His Son. You were saved before you were even born into this world. (Ephesians 2:5)
And the faith given us is not toward our salvation, but actually toward glorifying God. (2:7)

Originally posted by jake1997
you gave the verse yourself


As for the final destination. . .

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Who else is there? Satan, the false prophet, death, hades, ....

So it appears that death will goto heaven too with all those 'bad' people?

Satan is not a person. Nor is death or hades. And the false prophet, too. These are not 'bad people', not people at all.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Because you're either dead or alive. If you're alive, then it must be in Christ--that's the only way at that time. And if you're not alive, you're dead, and in the grave, the grave being, according to Ecclesiastes, a place of total darkness and total unknowing-ness. There is no praising of God or even any knowledge of Him in the grave.

Your trying to make a bigger problem out of this than what it is. People who die without accepting Christ, because of this choice never have their spirit reborn and sins forgiven. They physically die in that state. When it comes time for them to face the final judgement before God they will be resurrected with some sort of body that will go into eternity. Because they will not enter eternal life with God they will enter an eternity of seperation from Him, an eternal death. Not nonexistance, but a seperation from God with a spirit that is still dead.

Originally posted by queenannie38
The bible isn't about Jews, or christians--it is about Israel. Not the Israel in the news, the piece of land--but about God's elect.

The Bible is about Jesus Christ and that He is the Savior of mankind.

The Jewish people are very important to God but His plan was for the salvation of mankind, so I differ with your using the elect for them. I believe the elect is the church primarily and the Jews secondarily.

Colossians 1:2 Paul tells us he is writing to the saints in Colossee. It is also written to all saints(believers in Jesus Christ) of later times. That's who he is talking to.

Now go to Col.3:12 Remenber he is talking to christians also today and says to us, "Put on therefore, as the ELECT of God.........

Christians are the elect.

[edit on 31-7-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by queenannie38
Satan is not a person. Nor is death or hades. And the false prophet, too. These are not 'bad people', not people at all.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

What part of that dont you understand?
Who goes into the lake of fire

Satan, death, hades, and everyone whos name is not in the book of life. The dead, great and small.
This happens at the second resurrection...it is the second death.

So now..if everyone whos name is not written in the Book of Life goes into the lake with satan....and they end up in heaven with the saints...then satan ends up there too...along with death.
Not only is there no scripture to support what you say...but the logic is flawed as I just showed you

Originally posted by dbrandt

The Bible is about Jesus Christ and that He is the Savior of mankind.

But only some, right? Not all is what you say.

The Jewish people are very important to God but His plan was for the salvation of mankind, so I differ with your using the elect for them. I believe the elect is the church primarily and the Jews secondarily.

Who said anything about Jews? I said Israel.

Now go to Col.3:12 Remenber he is talking to christians also today and says to us, "Put on therefore, as the ELECT of God.........

Christians are the elect.

That is not stated anywhere in the bible.

This is:

And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
(Isaiah 45:3-17)

The 'fullness of the gentiles' is modern day christianity.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(Romans 11:25-29)

God reserved a remnant of Israel--and they are the elect. Not Jews, or christians, but the scattered remnant of Israel.

Originally posted by jake1997


What part of that dont you understand?

I understand all of it just fine, thank you.

Who goes into the lake of fire

I totally believe what Revelation says--those named will be cast into the lake of fire. But I know that lake of fire is not some place of eternal damnation and fiery torture--not that I'm saying it isn't punishment--no doubt it is. But it's not cruel or unusual punishment, such as you would have it be.

What is that lake of fire? What is its essence--where is it located?

But I asked you a question you never did answer, that I know of.

Why does a loving father punish his disobedient children? And how does he punish?

The Bible is only one of many ancient texts and predictions that describe a time when our thousands of years of careless destruction and poisoning of our home will result in a critical mass being reached. One way or another, whether through war, pollution, overconsumption, climate change, meteor, God, Satan, or whatever, the party will come to an end. Our growth and expansion has been above sustainable levels for at least 25 years, probably much longer. But 25 is a conservative estimate, and that consumption rate has risen every single year, so, we can't even level off, let alone return to sustainable levels. We are far past that now. So, the rapture, armageddon, apocalypse, fifth sun, end of the dream time, dawning of the age of aquarius, end of the Kali Yuga, or the third shaking, by whatever name you want to use, it is a pretty common prediction that something is up. Certainly I don't know what's up, but our massive stripping of the earths thin, fragile biomass is clearly bad news, and also not likely to be able to go on much longer. The oceans are empty, relatively speaking, the old growth ecosystems are gone, deserts mark our previous civilizations, and will likely mark the present ones, if our present behaviour continues. Which I cannot see changing. No one wants to dare believe that we really have messed up that bad. Ignoring it won't make it stop though. In my view, nothing can stop it, or stop us I should say.
We are the architects or our own demise, and have no one to blame but ourselves, whether it is God that resets the clock, or sedna, or us, it is my feeling that we cannot avoid meltdown........and soon. But that is okay.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Your trying to make a bigger problem out of this than what it is.

It's not a problem, at least not to me. If you're having a problem with it, that is easily remedied by sticking to scripture and believing the scripture without making far fetched connections and denying other scriptures.

People who die without accepting Christ, because of this choice never have their spirit reborn and sins forgiven. They physically die in that state. When it comes time for them to face the final judgement before God they will be resurrected with some sort of body that will go into eternity. Because they will not enter eternal life with God they will enter an eternity of seperation from Him, an eternal death. Not nonexistance, but a seperation from God with a spirit that is still dead.

Eternal life (of any sort) is not = eternal death (of any sort)!

How can they be alive if they have a spirit that is dead? God is the source of all 'living souls'. When His spirit is gone, there is nothing. No possibility to live outside of God. Is God not the creator and source of all that is?

#1 God is the only source of life.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(Genesis 2:7)

#2 When the body dies, the breath of life returns to God.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(Ecclesiastes 12:7)

#3 Man has no determination over the spirit.
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
(Ecclesiastes 8:8)

#4 The wages of sin are death.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 6:23)

#5 The grave is a place of darkness.
If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
(Job 17:13)

#6 There is no knowing or remembrance in the grave.
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
(Psalms 6:5)

#7 God is a consuming fire.
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
(Deuteronomy 4:24)
For our God is a consuming fire.
(Hebrews 12:29)


#8 God's fire purifies.
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
(Luke 3:16-17)
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
(Revelation 3:18)


#9 God's fire tries and refines our faith.
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
(1 Peter 1:7)

#10 God's fire serves to minister in the form of the Holy Ghost.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
(Hebrews 1:7)
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
(Acts 2:3-4)


#11 God's fire serves in judgment.
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(1 Corinthians 3:13-15)

#12 Fire comes with the revelation of the Son of man.
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
(Luke 17:29-30)
I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
(Luke 12:49)

No eternal torture in fire or separation from God. Proclaiming such is not spreading the true gospel that Peter and Paul preached. Christ did not come to destroy by fire--His fire is the refining furnace where we all must go. Some go through it in earthly life--and some will have to do in the lake of fire. But that lake of fire isn't hell (either the grave or the trashdump--gehenna) it is the Holy Spirit of God.

Ok, I thought I had the rapture figured out. This topic has now just confused me beyond belief and I now have no idea what to believe.

Great.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
In my view, nothing can stop it, or stop us I should say.
We are the architects or our own demise, and have no one to blame but ourselves, whether it is God that resets the clock, or sedna, or us, it is my feeling that we cannot avoid meltdown........and soon. But that is okay.

That's all completely an accurate assessment, no doubt!

We are the architects of our demise--but the thing is, that we've only been allowed to mess up so bad so that when God restores everything to the perfection that it was, even before the first chapter in Genesis, we will have no question at all that our ways are anything but wise and that His ways are perfect and just.

The end of the world is right around the corner--but it's only the end of the world as we know it, truly--and all I have to say about that is Thank you LORD Jesus!

The first chapter of Genesis starts out (correctly translated, that is):

First of all, Elohim created the sky and the earth (or ground or field).
The earth became a desolate and empty ruin; and destruction (or misery or wickedness) was upon the front-part of the abyss (a watery deep).
And the Spirit (or life or breath) of Elohim brooded (or relaxed) upon the front-part of the waters.

Originally posted by queenannie38
That is not stated anywhere in the bible.

Read Colossians 3:12

So Christians are the elect according to there own book? Somewhat biased source, I'd say. Do all the other major world faiths concur? Maybe the Zarathustrans are the elect. Or the Ba'hai. Or the people like me that refuse to discount others beliefs as wrong by taking sides. Does God play favorites? If so, I am not in favour. I believe God doesn't play favorites. The members of the Christian church, Jewish faith, Islam, Hinduism, etc. that truly feel that God is rooting for their side only, are being a little bit vain in that assessment. How about the idea that God is non-partial and is rooting for all of us? Is that so bad? Any God that did that is not getting my vote. I choose acceptance of all good people of any faith, or no faith, and will be shocked to learn otherwise.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38
That is not stated anywhere in the bible.

Read Colossians 3:12

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
(Colossians 3:12)

Still don't see it...