Raising Moral Questions

So, let's say for instance that you went spelunking with 100 people in a cave, and the cave is on the edge of an ocean. The tide has just started to come in and is now filling up the cave with water. All 100 people now have to get OUT of the cave or risk being drowned. so you all decide to head out, but on your way out of the mouth of the cave, a gigantically fat monstrous beast of a man gets stuck, thus blocking in the 99 people behind him. You push, pull, shove, do whatever you can to get him out, but it's impossible. Fat Albert is wedged like you would not believe. Now, one of you has a stick of dynamite. If you shove the stick of dynamite in between the man and the mouth of the cave, you KNOW for certain you will kill Fat Albert, but you also know for certain that you will save 99 people in the process. If you look at this mathematically, the 'good' of getting 99 people to safety far outweighs the 'evil' of killing Fat Albert, which to the rational mind makes perfect sense, but to a moral abolutist, you are committing a crime against humanity by breaking the absolute law of 'thou shall not kill.'

All of this is fine and good, but which do you decide? Should you be a rational man's moral relativist, or should you be a cranky old bastard and give rationality the bird and stick to tradition?

I in myself would probably give the decision to someone else so I dont have this mans death on my hands or all of us. I mean 1 man can die or 100 people can die. What would you do in this situation?

I would explain it to the overweight man and ask him what he'd would like for us to do. I think he would say yes to being killed so that the others may live, afterall he is going to die anyway from the water so why have everyone else die? If he chose to not have himself blown up so that the others may live, he is in a sense killing everyone. I think he would choose to have himself blown up so the others may live...

What if he was a highly respected man that has done a lot for society and is in the middle of doing a lot more? What if it was a younger man that still had a lot to live for? Just more questions.

9890

I don't think you got my last post right...how is he going to do anything more for society if the water is going to drown him anyway? The most he could do is let himself be blown up so that the others may live...again if he is not blown up, he is going to die from the water anyway, so why bring everyone else to their death?

heh....I'll just have to hope that he plugs the leak.

Otherwise, I'd probably just keep pushing. Once there is enought water, perhaps he would get free from the water pressure

Why would the fat guy go first?

Personally, I was wondering how the big man got in the caves before the water started to rise. Obviously it wasn't the way he was trying to get out.

Nice questions but thats not really the point. Lets just say some UFO dropped him off and sorry humbled_one I understand your post now Also I guess if it was a soceity of cannbals they would have free food too.

[edit on 2-6-2005 by 9890]

so how did he get thru the gap in the first place? And why did he have to go not last on the way out?

I understand the question, but in the end the "fat albert" should be the one to decide. And if he decides on the sacrifice I hope I could witness to him, and make sure he dies as a Christian who loves Jesus.

If he decides to "wait it out" or refuses to sacrifice. I have to use the "Needs of the many outway the needs of the few" defense. And ask for Gods mercy.

But I wouldn't let the explosive go off unless there was absoulutly no other way.

but in the end this is a purely hypothetical question, so don't hold me to it

First of all, Mr. Fat Albert is in this situation because of his own doing. If he didn’t eat too much (sinning) he wouldn’t be so fat. Regardless, he’s entitled to his own choice. If he refuses to be blown up, one has to do the rational thing and save the other 99. Kaboom!!! Using C4’s?
Babloyi, what if the water was slowly oozing in. What if he cannot be freed by pressure, etc. What would you do?

UFO ?

I dont believe in UFO's as such. If they are not natural things then they are demonic.

So what is this guy doing hangin around with demons? :-p

You know, there is another issue that comes to mind here.


For you christians out there, who rarely think things through, what would God want you to do.

a) Kill him and escape.
b) Allow everyone to die, so as not to commit murder.
c) Ask him as stated above and fulfill his wish which would....
1-mean he allows you to kill him which is murder on your part
2-mean he refuses to allow you to kill him, busequently placing
the blame on himself for everyones death.

What would God want?

God understands sacrifice. For he sacrificed his own son. Also understands maryterdom. for many early christians became martyers.

which is very differant to simple murder

The mans sin of glottony has the punishment of him sacrificing his life, to save others. Either way we have to aks for Gods mercy. Which he does grant

Again, hypothetical situation, I will let you know the right answer if I am ever a part of it, and arrive in heaven.. or hell

Originally posted by 9890
Nice questions but thats not really the point. Lets just say some UFO dropped him off

Hypothetical moral arguments are only of use if they reflect a realistic situation. There are always other options.

However, I would tell you what would happen if I were in that situation.

As I (we) searched for the option which isn't apparent, one (or more) of the other 98 people would physically and violently remove my opposition to using the dynamite on the big man.

End of Story.

[edit on 3-6-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Raph,

They would remove it as they should, because your stance on that is the stance of a lunatic..

Moral situations are all relative. Realistic is an opinion. For instance, I would imagine you are a christian. Realistically, no one could walk on water. Anyone who says its possible is an idiot. But just because that bunch of nonsense isn't realistic, a christian still considers it to be true. The consider it to be a "realistic" situastion.


No-one tried to answer my question.

I challenge ALL CHRISTIANS:

WHAT WOULD GOD WANT????

Have the courage to answer for once in your lives.

[edit on 6/3/2005 by Seapeople]

God would want what is best for his children. This just gonna add fodder to arguments about God being evil, but I personally think he would tell us and I think what he will say (unless its not important then he won't tell us) but I think he will want to remove the man by means of the dynamite thus saving many others. The man would die a hero in many senses and would be welcomed in Heaven. BTW I think Jehosephat(sp?) did answer but it was a kinda read between the lines.

9890

Ok so bring it on people I'm waiting for you

[edit on 3-6-2005 by 9890]

Originally posted by 9890
God would want what is best for his children. This just gonna add fodder to arguments about God being evil, but I personally think he would tell us and I think what he will say (unless its not important then he won't tell us) but I think he will want to remove the man by means of the dynamite thus saving many others. The man would die a hero in many senses and would be welcomed in Heaven. BTW I think Jehosephat(sp?) did answer but it was a kinda read between the lines.

9890

No, I saw immediately the point he was trying to make. Trust me, I am very analytical, and I know where a christian is coming from. However, there are serious issues with christian faith.

One of these issues is the fact that god knew all before he created anything. Thus, he created with the knowledge of the result. This is a fact admitted by christians. However, when pushed to stare at it in regards to free will, the christian mind shuts down. They ignore it.

At the very least, it should be a major question a christian thins about every day.

Ya and I gave you my thoughts on that in one of the u2us, no matter how exaggerated or hypocritical they were, so I have nothing else to say about that.

9890

All of you are forgetting that is something that takes over the human mind in times of danger and is called preservation.

It has been in the past and will happen in this type of situation, we are after all part of the animal kingdom.

If saving 99 against the death of one, just imagine what the odds are.

Will the 99 wait to die while one holds their fate?

That is the question here, and will one person be able to hold 99 back?

Think again, preservation is the key.

Originally posted by Seapeople
Raph,

They would remove it as they should, because your stance on that is the stance of a lunatic..

Personally, I doubt realism of the situation.

I pointed out that the big man did not enter the cave the same way he was trying to leave. The situation was changed to accomidate the scenario.

I also believe that if he applied enough force to get himself stuck, enough force can be applied by him and others to get him unstuck. The scenario will again be changed.

The situation will continue to adapt to the solutions until the problem is only solvable with one solution-- a solution of failure-- a failure of morals. This is the "Kobyashi Maru"-- a no win situation.

WHAT WOULD GOD WANT????

God would want you to be true to what you believe and who you are. The life He gives does not end with the earthly life.


Even the use of explosives does not guarantee survival. The cave could collapse trapping or even crushing the rest. What then? You killed a man for nothing.

I value all life. If the other 98 people valued it as well, they would assist in removing the big man from the hole alive, and the man would be removed alive. (As I said, if he got himself stuck, him and others can get him unstuck)

When the big man is removed, 98 people would be saved. Thus leaving me and the big man to use the dynamite on the hole to enlarge it so he too could survive. If the cave would then collaspe, we would die. But I would die trying to save his life, without compromising that which I hold in my heart.



[edit on 3-6-2005 by Raphael_UO]