Bush, at end of roll, denies abuses, claims america promotes "freedom"

Originally posted by Moretti

Originally posted by omega1
Guess what you ignorant liberals.....
gulags were mostly made up of innocent people, i.e. civilians.
guantanamo is a detention center for armed forces.

Actually, the people being tortured(according to the Red Cross and Amnesty International) at camp Guantanamo are suspects who haven't been charged for three years now, innocents.

We have only the administration's words that they are involved in terrorist plannings against the united states, but in fact i highly doubt that, given the administration's level of credibility on these kind of issues.

Well good thing the Red Cross doesn't run the world because there are not suspects but enemy fighters who were waging war!!

Wow, so Russian officials, who were part of the communist plot in 1991, and somehow were all pardoned by the KGB and Kremlim have been given awards right before the war with Iraq...

First, i still can't believe some people are so naive as to think that the Kremlim and the KGB/Russian mafia would pardon anybody after their long history of assassinations and even the recent political/literal assassinations done against the oposition of the Kremlim...

What better way to make the world believe the Kremlim/KGB had nothing to do with this than by using former soviet military who were part of a sham (or what some people call a coup attempt...) , yet they still have resources, and military technology ect to help Saddam?........

So the Kremlim/KGB pardoned these people and let them have all these resources, and military technology so only these men could make more money?....

OMG, this is a conspiracy board, yet when real conspiracies are right in front of people's eyes they can't see them....



[edit on 31-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

Originally posted by Boatphone
I'm pretty sure we could trust Saddam to fight his mortal enemy Iran. That's a safe bet dude...

It was considered to be a safe bet by the US when Rumsfeld and others formed part of regular envoys to Iraq 20+ years to train Saddam to fight Iran, and sell him weapons of mass destruction and their "programs", yes...

Meddling foreign incursion is never a good thing. It's easier to turn the mess into a fast buck war profits scenario for your cronies.

Yes, it was a safe bet that worked out well for us. Sometimes one must choose the lesser of two evils, i.e. Iraq over Iran.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
I have not put words into anyone's mouth to determine what the elusive notion of "freedom" is. But I have encouraged people to contribute what they consider to be inherent to the values of "freedom" - not to give me my definition.

Humm, using a smokescreen now huh?... did i say that's what you think or did i ask if that is your definition of freedom?....

All you had to do was anwser and say what your definition of freedom is and when you will proclaim taht you are free.

I have been around these boards to have read what your definition of freedom is, and it is anarchy Masked.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
I have no gun to my head. Actually, I spend most of my time in countries that are free of violent crime involving guns.

Really? and what countries are these where there is no crime?

BTW real dictatorships start when the people are deprived from their right to bear arms.

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
Mohandas Gandhi

Excerpted from.
www.brainyquote.com...

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Much of the world outside America can be quite confident that its people live in greater "freedom" than the country that still calls itself "land of the free" under the control of a corrupt administration eroding civil liberties every day.

humm, really? can you tell me which countries are these?....

Do you really want to go over this all over again?


[edit on 31-5-2005 by Muaddib]

So boatphone,

You dont care that the redcross is accusing the USA of torture?
You dont care that the USA IS committing torture?
Or you dont beleive that they are committing torture?

Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
So boatphone,

You dont care that the redcross is accusing the USA of torture?
You dont care that the USA IS committing torture?
Or you dont beleive that they are committing torture?

The U.S. is not commiting torture. And The Red Cross did NOT accuse the U.S. of torture they cried abuse, which is very vague.

[edit on 1-6-2005 by Boatphone]

Ok, so what do you call the USA removing prisoners, sending them to foreign places, and committing acts there?

Is it NOT torture because it isnt done in the USA juristidiction? but still done by the USA?

Deprivation of HUMAN rights, couldnt that be considered torture?

"Although Amnesty International was granted access to observe the military commissions in progress at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, no Amnesty International representative has ever been granted access to the detention facilities there. Amnesty has interviewed detainees who have been released, and those interviews, along with several public reports by former detainees, all detail torture and ill treatment in custody.

The situation was of such concern to the Red Cross that the organization publically announced its concerns about the treatment of detainees, a rare move for the organization which usually keeps its its findings confidential."

"When the US as the world's sole superpower sets the example of removing accepted protections such as the Geneva Conventions, it give the green light to other governments to do the same."

"Torture and ill-treatment by U.S.-led forces were widely reported"

If the usa wasnt torturing prisoners, why not grant access for the red cross to every sector?

Why not put them on trial and get things moving instead of taking heat on their loophole about enemy combatants?

Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
So boatphone,

You dont care that the redcross is accusing the USA of torture?
You dont care that the USA IS committing torture?
Or you dont beleive that they are committing torture?

We have been over the torture several times already. These new allegations probably have a lot to do with the Koran desecration allegations.

Since AI knows they really can't do anything in countries where genocide is actually happening and hundreds of thousands to millions of people are being killed in countries that really don't give a crap as to what AI says, they tend to bash the US for anything, as they try to show to the world that the contributions given to these foundations are used for something.

It is politics. Find out why is it that AI is not bashing and blaming Kofi Annan for saying that genocide has not happened in Sudan, even after over 2.4 million peope have been killed since 1983 and it is still ongoing.

Try to find why AI is not saying a peep about what other countries such as Cuba, China, NK who have worse human right records than anyone in the world, and in fact some of these human right organizations have gone so far as to congratulate countries such as Cuba.

In the US, if there is really something to allegations as these, we go after the people who have done these acts, don't give me that crap that it was US officials who ordered this to happen, because we know that US officials gave guidelines as to what should and should not be done....

Since AI can't really do a thing about countries where the worse crimes are commited, they resort to attacking the next best thing, a country where even though guidelines are given some people decide to do what they want, and a whole country and administration is blamed because they can do it and the whole world will think AI is doing it's job, when in fact it is not really doing it's job.

The same goes for many countries which are part of the UN yet commit the worse crimes and AI doesn't make a big deal about it.


[edit on 31-5-2005 by Muaddib]

'' was very vague ''

That was very vague, trying backing your info up with more than this accusation!

Its sad really that there are people still out there to this very day who will insist that Iraq had significant quanitities of WMDs. If its so obvious that the Russians took them then why has no one who's opinion is actually worth a damn come forward in America saying this? Gee you'd think the president would have mentioned this at some point in time. Maybe he's keeping it a secret because he doesnt want to piss of the russans you might say.To which I reply that if things are so hostile between America and the Russians why exactly was the president so chummy with Putin on his trip to Russia ? They sure looked pretty chummy when they were driving around in that vintage russian clown car putin owns.

Please see past your vintage coldwar blinders and look at the facts. Are you telling me that the russkies managed to sneak into Iraq steal hundred of tons of volatile toxic chemicals, sophisticated equipment,and radioactive material sneak back out carrying said material on they're backs and no one in the entire world noticed? The united states didnt notice, the UN didnt notice, Britain didnt notice, germany didnt notice, france didnt notice, the whole world didnt notice when russia airlifted chemical weapons plants out of Iraq with they're stealth transport planes? You actually believe this?

Regarding the freedom spreading of America Im sure much of South America and Africa would beg to differ that they're free're thanks to American involvement in their internal politics. I dont know maybe we have different definitions of freedom. You probably consider the hundreds of thousands murdered by corrupt dictators with American supplied weapons and American trained troops an example of freedom on the march. I dont get people like you. On one hand you decry the evils of communism because of the atrocitied they commited yet on the other hand you completely ignore the mayhem wreakted on the third world by American proxies. At best you write it off as a necessary side affect of the fight against communism.

So let me get this straight
We caused the death of thousands of people because we had to stop the commies and we had to stop the commies because they might cause the deaths of thousands of people. I suppose that bit of illogic makes sense to you people but then again I shouldnt be surprised because your the same people who believe the KGB (which no longer exists) managed to to airlfit tons of WMDs (which also no longer exist) out of Iraq with a fleet of invisible stealth transport planes (which Im pretty sure never existed at all in the first place).
I mean am I missing something here or is there another dimension to this issue Im not aware of?

Originally posted by Muaddib
It is politics. Find out why is it that AI is not bashing and blaming Kofi Annan for saying that genocide has not happened in Sudan, even after over 2.4 million peope have been killed since 1983 and it is still ongoing.

Try to find why AI is not saying a peep about what other countries such as Cuba, China, NK who have worse human right records than anyone in the world, and in fact some of these human right organizations have gone so far as to congratulate countries such as Cuba.

[edit on 31-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Are you stoned? Seriously are you stoned?
What fantasy world do you live in where Amnesty International says nothing about the abuses of China North Korea and Cuba etc yet goes out of its way to pin the blame squarely on America?
Have you ever even read a an AMnesty International report?
Have you ever even been to their webpage?

I doubt you've done either because if you had youd have read the following

regarding china
There was progress towards reform in some areas, but this failed to have a significant impact on serious and widespread human rights violations perpetrated across the country.

regarding North Korea
The government continued to fail in its duty to uphold and protect the right to food, exacerbating the effects of the long-standing food crisis. Access by independent monitors continued to be severely restricted. There were reports of widespread political imprisonment, torture and ill-treatment, and of executions.

regarding Cuba
By the end of 2004 there were at least 70 prisoners of conscience, most of them held since the 2003 crackdown on the dissident movement. Dissidents and their relatives continued to be threatened and harassed.

Those were just excerpts from the summaries of the abuses listed in the report. They go into much further detail on the website. You see the thing is people like you never paid attention to Amnesty International on the first place. You just looked at them as a convienent forum to snub your political enemies. Now that the shoe is on the other foot you complain. Even now you dont notice the fact that Amnesty International has always condemned the actions of tyranny, and even now speaks out against abuse in the places you say they ignore. The fact is though they dont ignore those places quite the opposite in fact. Its more like you just ignore the reports of abuse in those places save for when its poltically convenient for you.

[edit on 1-6-2005 by boogyman]

Originally posted by Boatphone
Also, keep in mind that the terrorists in "Gitmo" hate freedom more than anyone so maybe their happy there.

Really? You know all these people, including the children at gitmo? You know what they are thinking? Amazing.

Tell me, what the 175 or so people who were held for three years, and then released with zero charges against them are thinking right now, please. If they hated freedom so much why didn't they go back to gitmo after being released?

What i can't believe is that there are people who obviously cannot read, and make an informed decision as to what Saddam was doing in Iraq. He went against the mandates of the UN, having missiles which sole purpose was for chemicals, and which he was not supposed to have. He also acquired missile technology which was banned from Iraq...yet people still claim Saddam was not going against the mandates of the agreement set forth by the UN?....

Let's see what some of the evidence from UNMOVIC itself had to say about it.

However, in several instances Iraq provided misleading declarations regarding the suppliers and sources of the items and materials as well as procurement channels, claiming that they had been purchased on the local market. It appeared that they had been procured outside Iraq through private trading companies operating both in and outside of the country. There is much evidence that from 1999
to 2002 Iraq procured materials, equipment and components for use in its missile programmes. In several instances, the items procured were used by Iraq for programmes, such as the production of Al Samoud 2 missiles, that were determined by UNMOVIC in February 2003 to be proscribed. This can be illustrated by the acquisition of at least 380 SA-2 missile engines for Iraq’s prime missile establishment by an Iraqi Government-owned trading company controlled by the Military Industrialization Commission through a local Iraqi trading company and a foreign trading company. UNMOVIC is currently analysing documents available to it in order to establish the source of the engines procured through the local trading
company and of any additional SA-2 engines (or other missile-related items) that might have been procured by Iraq since 1999.

16. The same Iraqi governmental trading company was involved, through a
contract with two foreign private companies, in procuring components and
equipment for the manufacture and testing of missile guidance and control systems, including inertial navigation systems with fibre-optic and laser ring gyroscopes and Global Positioning System equipment, accelerometers, ancillary items and a variety of production and testing equipment. The list of items sought includes several that were not declared or shown to UNMOVIC during the course of its inspections. One Iraqi trading company was also involved in the procurement, through private trading
companies, of different pieces of missile-related production equipment and
technology. Several foreign private subcontractors were responsible for the
implementation of specific parts of the general contract. UNMOVIC is in the
process of assessing the possible applications of items and technology outlined in that contract.

Excerpted from.
www.globalsecurity.org...

In that excerpt alone we can see that Iraq was going against the mandates and was acquiring banned missiles, which they were not supposed to have... It was a breach of the agreement, right there....

There have been other banned missiles and material which Iraq was supposed to have gotten rid of, but they still had them for a reason.

in the above link, you will find that these missiles were found in scrapyards around the world because they were recieving high radiation readings from the scrap that Saddam was exporting.

Here are some more links where US officials tell as clear as daylight what was happening in Iraq, including how Saddam was using the oil for food program to acquire banned materials and weaponry instead of helping his people.

Bolstered by the increases in Oil-for-Food revenues that Annan negotiated, Saddam booted the weapons inspectors out of the country in 1998. Oil-for-Food became, increasingly, "Oil-for-Arms."

"Saddam was using ... some of the Oil-for-Food money, basically to re-stock," Spertzel said, adding that the money the United Nations was supposed to be controlling and overseeing was being "siphoned off" by the former Iraqi dictator so he could buy weapons.

Excerpted from.
www.foxnews.com...


US officials have said this, several times...as well as Kuwaiti forces, and iraqi guards at the border of Iraq...

Russian special forces troops moved many of Saddam Hussein's weapons and related goods out of Iraq and into Syria in the weeks before the March 2003 U.S. military operation, The Washington Times has learned.
John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said in an interview that he believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, "almost certainly" removed the high-explosive material that went missing from the Al-Qaqaa facility, south of Baghdad.

"The Russians brought in, just before the war got started, a whole series of military units," Mr. Shaw said. "Their main job was to shred all evidence of any of the contractual arrangements they had with the Iraqis. The others were transportation units."
Mr. Shaw, who was in charge of cataloging the tons of conventional arms provided to Iraq by foreign suppliers, said he recently obtained reliable information on the arms-dispersal program from two European intelligence services that have detailed knowledge of the Russian-Iraqi weapons collaboration.

Excerpted from.
www.washingtontimes.com...

Let's actually see some of the evidence...

The Iraq Survey Group (ISG), whose intelligence analysts are managed by Charles Duelfer, a former State Department official and deputy chief of the U.N.-led arms-inspection teams, has found "hundreds of cases of activities that were prohibited" under U.N. Security Council resolutions, a senior administration official tells Insight. "There is a long list of charges made by the U.S. that have been confirmed, but none of this seems to mean anything because the weapons that were unaccounted for by the United Nations remain unaccounted for."

Both Duelfer and his predecessor, David Kay, reported to Congress that the evidence they had found on the ground in Iraq showed Saddam's regime was in "material violation" of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the last of 17 resolutions that promised "serious consequences" if Iraq did not make a complete disclosure of its weapons programs and dismantle them in a verifiable manner. The United States cited Iraq's refusal to comply with these demands as one justification for going to war.

Both Duelfer and Kay found that Iraq had "a clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses with equipment that was suitable to continuing its prohibited chemical- and biological-weapons [BW] programs," the official said. "They found a prison laboratory where we suspect they tested biological weapons on human subjects." They found equipment for "uranium-enrichment centrifuges" whose only plausible use was as part of a clandestine nuclear-weapons program. In all these cases, "Iraqi scientists had been told before the war not to declare their activities to the U.N. inspectors," the official said.

But while the president's critics and the media might plausibly hide behind ambiguity and a lack of sensational-

looking finds for not reporting some discoveries, in the case of Saddam's ballistic-missile programs they have no excuse for their silence. "Where were the missiles? We found them," another senior administration official told Insight.

"Saddam Hussein's prohibited missile programs are as close to a slam dunk as you will ever find for violating United Nations resolutions," the first official said. Both senior administration officials spoke to Insight on condition that neither their name nor their agency be identified, but their accounts of what the United States has found in Iraq coincided in every major area.

When former weapons inspector Kay reported to Congress in January that the United States had found "no stockpiles" of forbidden weapons in Iraq, his conclusions made front-page news. But when he detailed what the ISG had found in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence last October, few took notice. Among Kay's revelations, which officials tell Insight have been amplified in subsequent inspections in recent weeks:


A prison laboratory complex that may have been used for human testing of BW agents and "that Iraqi officials working to prepare the U.N. inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the U.N." Why was Saddam interested in testing biological-warfare agents on humans if he didn't have a biological-weapons program?


"Reference strains" of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents were found beneath the sink in the home of a prominent Iraqi BW scientist. "We thought it was a big deal," a senior administration official said. "But it has been written off [by the press] as a sort of 'starter set.'"


New research on BW-applicable agents, brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin that were not declared to the United Nations.


A line of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), or drones, "not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 kilometers [311 miles], 350 kilometers [217 miles] beyond the permissible limit."


"Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the U.N."


"Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1,000 kilometers [621 miles] - well beyond the 150-kilometer-range limit [93 miles] imposed by the U.N. Missiles of a 1,000-kilometer range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets throughout the Middle East, including Ankara [Turkey], Cairo [Egypt] and Abu Dhabi [United Arab Emirates]."


In addition, through interviews with Iraqi scientists, seized documents and other evidence, the ISG learned the Iraqi government had made "clandestine attempts between late 1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300-kilometer-range [807 miles] ballistic missiles - probably the No Dong - 300-kilometer-range [186 miles] antiship cruise missiles and other prohibited military equipment," Kay reported.

In testimony before Congress on March 30, Duelfer, revealed that the ISG had found evidence of a "crash program" to construct new plants capable of making chemical- and biological-warfare agents. The ISG also found a previously undeclared program to build a "high-speed rail gun," a device apparently designed for testing nuclear-weapons materials. That came in addition to 500 tons of natural uranium stockpiled at Iraq's main declared nuclear site south of Baghdad, which International Atomic Energy Agency spokesman Mark Gwozdecky acknowledged to Insight had been intended for "a clandestine nuclear-weapons program."

Excerpted from.
www.insightmag.com...

U.S. intelligence agencies have obtained satellite photographs of truck convoys that were at several weapons sites in Iraq in the weeks before U.S. military operations were launched, defense officials said yesterday.
The photographs indicate that Iraq was moving arms and equipment from its known weapons sites, said officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
According to one official, the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, known as NGA, "documented the movement of long convoys of trucks from various areas around Baghdad to the Syrian border."

Excerpted from.
washingtontimes.com...

Originally posted by boogyman

Are you stoned? Seriously are you stoned?
What fantasy world do you live in where Amnesty International says nothing about the abuses of China North Korea and Cuba etc yet goes out of its way to pin the blame squarely on America?
...................

Nope, i never have taken weed like so many people around here seem to do in a daily basis.

Yes, AI went too far claiming that the US is today's Gulag when in fact worse things happen in Sudan, Cuba, China, Russia, to name a few...yet, of course, they don't clarify this.

This is the same as the report from a news agency claming that what was happening in Uzbekistan was the worse any government has done since Tiananmen square, and then tried to pin part of the blame on the US. When in fact the government of Sudan had been involveed in the killing of over 2.4 million people since 1983, over 415,000 which were killed since 2003.

Yes, there are groups and reports who always try to place the blame mainly on the US.

Gee you'd think America would confront Russia if any of that were true.
Once again you exhibit that weird logic made famous by the right. We had to flout the will of the UN because Iraq was flouting the will of the UN. You can not uphold the law by breaking it. You do not strengthen the UN by undercutting it. If the UN is corrupt fine say that and withdraw, I could care less. Just please stop mucking things up for the rest of us.

Oh god they dont have to clarify anything everyone knows those countries are atrocious, Amnesty international has always condemned them. The fact is you dont care that they might be right and we are royally effing things up in gitmo, you'd rather cloud the issue by arguing semantics. You feel that because some AI goon made a poor choice of words that suddenly our record on detainee abuse is a moot point because we're not as bad as the russians. Convienently overlooking the fact that she probably used the word gulag because gulags were where the soviets sent their political prisoners. Get it gulag as in a place where political prisoners are sent? Perhaps you'd be more comfortable with the term concentration camp as if that makes things any better.

Originally posted by boogyman
Gee you'd think America would confront Russia if any of that were true.
Once again you exhibit that weird logic made famous by the right. We had to flout the will of the UN because Iraq was flouting the will of the UN. You can not uphold the law by breaking it. You do not strengthen the UN by undercutting it. If the UN is corrupt fine say that and withdraw, I could care less. Just please stop mucking things up for the rest of us.

And the US actually did. This was covered sometime ago. The LATIMES had an article about this, but they no longer have it. However there is this article.

April 4, 2003, 9:00 a.m.
Looking Back into the Soul
Bush and Putin need to get beyond Iraq-related issues.


The Bush administration has accused Moscow of selling sensitive military equipment to Saddam Hussein, in violation of U.N. Security Council sanctions. During a March 24 telephone conversation, President George W. Bush discussed the sales of night-vision goggles, anti-tank Kornet missiles, and Global Positioning System (GPS) jamming equipment with Russian President Vladimir Putin.


According to the Russian website www.gazeta.ru, former Soviet generals have also admitted that, just days before the beginning of the U.S.-led campaign against Iraq, they received state awards from Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. These are senior retired Soviet officers, General (three-star) Vladimir Achalov and General (also three-star) Igor Maltsev. Achalov, former Soviet deputy defense minister, participated in the failed putsch against then-Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev. He was also the Soviet airborne-troops commander and the last Soviet commander-in-chief of the rapid-reaction forces. Maltsev, who is considered a leading authority in air defense, was the chief of the Main Staff of the Soviet Air Defense. He is also a pardoned 1991 coup plotter.

Russian defense sources in Moscow told NRO that both retired generals had to obtain permission from top-level Russian political and military authorities to perform their advisory roles. Thus Russia's official denials that the Kremlin did not know about the "mission to Baghdad" can only sound hollow.

In the conversation with Bush, Putin not only denied sales to Iraq, but went on to accuse the U.S. of itself selling deadly military equipment to Iraq, and to other countries which may support (or have supported) international terrorism. The Associated Press and other media reports described the exchange between the two leaders as "tense." These accusations are just a symptom of the state of U.S.-Russian relations, which have been deteriorating since Moscow sided with Paris in the U.N. Security Council.

Excerpted from.
www.nationalreview.com...

The Russians claimed this was not true, yet the evidence points to the contrary.



[edit on 1-6-2005 by Muaddib]

I dont get you on one hand you say that America is more secure through the actions of GWB on the other you bring up this weird conspiracy where the Russians stole iraqs WMDs and GWB is too scared to bring it up with Putin. Which is it? Are we safer or are we not? You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by boogyman
Oh god they dont have to clarify anything everyone knows those countries are atrocious, Amnesty international has always condemned them. The fact is you dont care that they might be right and we are royally effing things up in gitmo, you'd rather cloud the issue by arguing semantics. You feel that because some AI goon made a poor choice of words that suddenly our record on detainee abuse is a moot point because we're not as bad as the russians. Convienently overlooking the fact that she probably used the word gulag because gulags were where the soviets sent their political prisoners. Get it gulag as in a place where political prisoners are sent? Perhaps you'd be more comfortable with the term concentration camp as if that makes things any better.

WTH...you are out of your mind.... Gulags had millions of people, many who died because of the conditions that these prisons had...concentration camps had also many people, and in which millions died....

You call it arguing over semantics. I say it is people like you always trying to exagerate what is happening in the US, your own avatar can tells us how much you exagerate trying to sell your delluded points.

I see us confronting Russia about the sale of night vision googles and missiles nothing about the sale of WMD materials let alone the theft of said materials just before the war.